Why Are Irish Rail Failing so badly

gobnaitolunacy · 15-07-2012 10:43pm

Putting on my passenger hat for a sec...
First impressions of a mk 3 set, they could do with a GOOD deep clean every so often. ALWAYS dirt visible mostly stuck in those grille things running along the bottom of the window. Chewing gum and assorted sh*te stuck to the underside of the tables. Carpets etc looking grubby.

Journey time is where you win or lose Cork-Dublin, with the motorway a family car can give the train a run for its money, get rid of all the stuffing lads. Money off deals and tie-in with attractions for groups/families or else they'll just hop in the car. And ADVERTISE them, not just on a crummy old posterboard down at the local station.

positron · 15-07-2012 10:48pm

bk wrote: »

The problems with Irish Rail are really very simple, their trains are too slow and too expensive.

+1

steamengine · 15-07-2012 10:53pm

foggy_lad wrote: »

THe harcourt street line was adequate for the old trams and trolly buses but would not have been of any use for the Luas, the old irish way of settling for second hand stuff and using old bits of broken things to make something new just does not work well unless your favourite words are "Ah sure it'll do!".

So how come the LUAS runs on the old Harcourt St line from Ranelagh to Dundrum via an embankment and the Milltown viaduct ? The original overhead section from Ranelagh into Harcourt Street no longer exists, thanks to the lack of foresight that this line would ever re-open again. The alignment is the most important part as any railway is 90% civil engineering, 10% mechanical / electrical etc.

Qualitymark · 15-07-2012 10:54pm

Expensive
Not on time
Unreliable
Grubby
Often no food to be had
Shruggy attitude of staff when this happens
Bad times of trains - often impossible to get a train to a destination and back at the times you need - which becomes a self-fulfilling disadvantage as people then choose other forms of transport
Bad co-ordination with other services, eg ferries
Train stations often unpleasant and uncomfortable
Difficulty of finding information
Have been on trains where people were rowdy and drunk and there was no sign of any staff; have never experienced this abroad
Bad passenger service - for instance in carrying bicycles

And that's from one who loves train journeys in countries where the trains work well, like France or Japan.

Judgement Day · 15-07-2012 11:29pm

kieran4003 - I admire your misplaced optimism. When you're around for long enough you've heard it all before. I'm around a long time and I'm sick to the back teeth of hearing new plans announced only to see continued decline and mediocrity takes over. Who is this expert? There's a lot more wrong with IE than will be solved by speeding up a few trains on the Dublin/Cork line. The trouble is that all the effort (and money) will be squandered on shaving a few minutes of journey times on that route while the rest of the network goes to rack and ruin.

highlydebased · 16-07-2012 12:13am

Incredible inconsistency in the way their staff go about their jobs- mostly station staff obviously. Some very helpful and some not at all, some staff giving conflicting information, some staff using discretion as regards tickets while some use none at all, staff not appearing presentable, staff waving people through ticket gates without checking tickets, a scrum in the Enterprise waiting room on busy days, threatening customers with court over human error with tickets (that is going to have to change...), ticket from Limk-Dublin cheaper than Limerick-Thurles which is 1/10th the distance...all promotions aimed at Dublin bound passengers....just to name a few problems!

foggy_lad · 16-07-2012 12:22am

kieran4003 wrote: »

An Expert from the UK has been brought in and is assisting in developing a new schedule. Mass review of line speeds, times and services. New timetable in September/Autumn. The standard Dublin - Cork time will be 2:20 with two stops. A speed trail train recently covered the route in 2:14 with all speed restrictions. There will be further trials with higher speeds to get an express 2:00 time. Infrastructure investment is finally paying off.

A trial Dublin - Galway train has taken 1:55. Similar improvements will be made here.

The 05:05 Cork - Dublin service is apparently going, but I cold see this causing trouble. Passengers can use the Limerick train. There will be other cuts in services but nothing major. Political services (WRC & Nenagh) are breaking IE.

There is a major drive to get profitable freight services going. Cork- Dublin is being cleared for 9ft 6 containers.

Much more flexible booking system coming, passengers with online tickets will be able to amend their booking online, eg. change to a different time train.

Dick Fearn is leaving the company in the Autumn aswell.

Who is this expert and what are his or her qualifications? Is it another duck fearn character brought in to throw sugar at th barrel of rotting fruits?

What is the point in shaving a few minutes off one service to cork when several other trains have to be delayed to clear the road for it? Is there going to be a multi stop service along with the proposed express/limited stop trains?

end of the road · 16-07-2012 12:26am

foggy_lad wrote: »

They need to get rid of first class on all services because it is costing too much for normal passengers to subsidise those that use it.

couldn't agree more

foggy_lad wrote: »

Also shut down lines that are losing massive amounts of money but are kept open for sentimental or historic reasons

no line is kept open for sentimental or historic reasons.

foggy_lad wrote: »

the Nenagh branch needs to be torn up along with the Waterford-Rosslare line

why, the lines could be left in situ to protect the alignment. CIE'S biggest mistake was lifting and dismantling lines and demolishing the infrastructure followed by abandoning the routes, they could have been all made into a massive cycle network but no CIE did what ever they could to make sure such a thing couldn't happen. rosslare waterford and the nenagh branch are fine, no need to rip them up, whatever about service suspensions.

foggy_lad wrote: »

the Waterford-Limerick Junction line should also go.

or services could be improved and advertised more. its a line connecting one city to a major junction with onward connections to cork, tralee, limerick and galway.

foggy_lad wrote: »

As far as advertising goes the adverts all show modern bright stations but the reality for most passengers is some pokey rotten sh1thole like Kildare where the smell of stale urine from the toilet and rot and damp from the walls and floors in the dirty waiting room makes standing out in the cold and rain a more pleasant way to wait for the train.

thats down to bad management and bad decisian making with funds.

end of the road · 16-07-2012 12:38am

davidlacey wrote: »

I believe the rosslare waterford line has no use unless the sugarbeet ever returns in the future

well if it was only good for the sugarbeet why didn't they down-grade it to a freight line? a passenger service that hardly anyone realised was still going and that was only going to waterford instead of somewhere like LJ was never going to attract anyone. IE never did anything with this line, sure if they did it may not have payed off but we will never know now.

davidlacey · 16-07-2012 12:40am

foggy_lad wrote: »

davidlacey wrote: »

Getting rid of further routes will do nothing for us? We could have done with many routes which were closed in the 50s/60s eg. Harcort street line, cork-youghal etc... But instead we have to invest 100s of millions to set up a lias to replace that route and a cOmmuter service to midelton so closing lines and ripping them up is just the short sighted nature that IE is well known for, just wait for IE if this DFDS suspension is true, IE will close all connections to belview port so that it will never be able to use it again if things turn around in the future. I believe the rosslare waterford line has no use unless the sugarbeet ever returns in the future but shutting down lines is all well and good but if they are not maintained for possible future use is a pointless move. Look at athlone-mullingar would be alot cheaper to reinstate in future times if it was given a little TLC

THe harcourt street line was adequate for the old trams and trolly buses but would not have been of any use for the Luas, the old irish way of settling for second hand stuff and using old bits of broken things to make something new just does not work well unless your favourite words are "Ah sure it'll do!".

Obviously u wud have to build on the old line but it was a lack of future planning abondoning a vital commuter route which okay in the 1960s it wasent but we need to learn from those mistakes and not just close railways before forward planning and the 2030 report is put to good use. We could have had another dart line from bray which took in some busy urban areas into harcort street but instead we have a luas which only goes as far as cherrywood and is not interchangeable with its sister on the north side so lack of future planning is still rampant today as it always had been

Jamie2k9 · 16-07-2012 12:46am

kieran4003 wrote: »

An Expert from the UK has been brought in and is assisting in developing a new schedule. Mass review of line speeds, times and services. New timetable in September/Autumn. The standard Dublin - Cork time will be 2:20 with two stops. A speed trail train recently covered the route in 2:14 with all speed restrictions. There will be further trials with higher speeds to get an express 2:00 time. Infrastructure investment is finally paying off.

A trial Dublin - Galway train has taken 1:55. Similar improvements will be made here.

The 05:05 Cork - Dublin service is apparently going, but I cold see this causing trouble. Passengers can use the Limerick train. There will be other cuts in services but nothing major. Political services (WRC & Nenagh) are breaking IE.

There is a major drive to get profitable freight services going. Cork- Dublin is being cleared for 9ft 6 containers.

Much more flexible booking system coming, passengers with online tickets will be able to amend their booking online, eg. change to a different time train.

Dick Fearn is leaving the company in the Autumn aswell.

If you know about the above you must know or have an idea of what services cuts will be interduced?

davidlacey · 16-07-2012 12:50am

end of the road wrote: »

davidlacey wrote: »

I believe the rosslare waterford line has no use unless the sugarbeet ever returns in the future

well if it was only good for the sugarbeet why didn't they down-grade it to a freight line? a passenger service that hardly anyone realised was still going and that was only going to waterford instead of somewhere like LJ was never going to attract anyone. IE never did anything with this line, sure if they did it may not have payed off but we will never know now.

The exact same is going on in the WRC at the moment is it not no advertising no nice new rolling stock no effort

end of the road · 16-07-2012 1:02am

foggy_lad wrote: »

I was thinking that Carlow and Wexford might be viable and the Sligo line as far as Longford and also keep the Westport and Ballina lines but improve track and speeds over the next few years. Also keep Galway but lose the western fail corridor at the same time as the other failed lines.

so you want to close the line south of carlow which passes through 2 cities? and no i don't want to get into the debate on whether they actually are cities or not. apparently the sligo line was at risk of closure during the 80s/early 90s? sligo now has a train every 2 hours or so which means their must be a demand for services to it. rosslare has lost one of its services why should it lose all because CIE f//ked up and drove away most of its customers and severed the ferry connection by moving the station (again) and changed the timetable, again we could argue all year about the demand for ferry connections but theirs obviously a demand for such connections otherwise they wouldn't have them at all in the UK.

Jamie2k9 · 16-07-2012 1:08am

so you want to close the line south of carlow which passes through 2 cities? and no i don't want to get into the debate on whether they actually are cities or not.

Kilkenny is not but Waterford is.

end of the road · 16-07-2012 1:15am

davidlacey wrote: »

The exact same is going on in the WRC at the moment is it not no advertising no nice new rolling stock no effort

yes i believe so. it shouldn't have been reopened but it is now. realy it should have only gone limerick ennis athenry oranmore galway with a decent line speed. its hard to say though which rolling stock would have been suited to it had it been done this way, the commuter railcars have less seating but have lots of standing room which would be suited to high capacity routes, the 22000s have more seating but possibly only 2 cars would be required. (please note i'm talking in terms of my suggestion on how it should have been built and what stations should only have been served and not what we have actually got as the WRC)

davidlacey · 16-07-2012 1:16am

end of the road wrote: »

foggy_lad wrote: »

I was thinking that Carlow and Wexford might be viable and the Sligo line as far as Longford and also keep the Westport and Ballina lines but improve track and speeds over the next few years. Also keep Galway but lose the western fail corridor at the same time as the other failed lines.

so you want to close the line south of carlow which passes through 2 cities? and no i don't want to get into the debate on whether they actually are cities or not. apparently the sligo line was at risk of closure during the 80s/early 90s? sligo now has a train every 2 hours or so which means their must be a demand for services to it. rosslare has lost one of its services why should it lose all because CIE f//ked up and drove away most of its customers and severed the ferry connection by moving the station (again) and changed the timetable, again we could argue all year about the demand for ferry connections but theirs obviously a demand for such connections otherwise they wouldn't have them at all in the UK.

The rosslare line is a very under utilised route especially thru towns like gorey and arklow. Yes its a single line but there ks definetly room for a two hour per train trial as IE can assume there is no demand but there is no harm in trying especially as it has been a freigt free line for over 10 years now

end of the road · 16-07-2012 1:17am

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Kilkenny is not but Waterford is.

now now. don't start!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

dowlingm · 16-07-2012 3:00am

kieran4003 wrote: »

The standard Dublin - Cork time will be 2:20 with two stops. A speed trail train recently covered the route in 2:14 with all speed restrictions. There will be further trials with higher speeds to get an express 2:00 time. Infrastructure investment is finally paying off.

A trial Dublin - Galway train has taken 1:55. Similar improvements will be made here.

The 05:05 Cork - Dublin service is apparently going, but I cold see this causing trouble. Passengers can use the Limerick train. There will be other cuts in services but nothing major. Political services (WRC & Nenagh) are breaking IE.

There is a major drive to get profitable freight services going. Cork- Dublin is being cleared for 9ft 6 containers.

Getting rid of the 0505?? Maybe if it didn't stop everywhere north of the Junction (I presume these are the people who can "use the Limerick train" kieran4003 - and which train?) and it left later it might have better economics. In fact what IE should be doing instead of that is putting on an 0600 Heuston-Cork.

The clearance of Cork is 9'6" with pockets, right? That's been known for a while, now that North Wall is cleared (albeit with a couple of SRs) for 9'6" on standard. Still a mystery what is going to be shipped where for all this effort.

foggy_lad · 16-07-2012 3:29am

end of the road wrote: »

so you want to close the line south of carlow which passes through 2 cities? and no i don't want to get into the debate on whether they actually are cities or not. apparently the sligo line was at risk of closure during the 80s/early 90s? sligo now has a train every 2 hours or so which means their must be a demand for services to it. rosslare has lost one of its services why should it lose all because CIE f//ked up and drove away most of its customers and severed the ferry connection by moving the station (again) and changed the timetable, again we could argue all year about the demand for ferry connections but theirs obviously a demand for such connections otherwise they wouldn't have them at all in the UK.

Not many people from Waterford or Kilkenny use the train, most drive or get the bus for price speed and comfort. And the Sligo line is still at risk just as soon as someone starts up a limited stop bus service cutting out all the villages on the route. But your right 8 bright comfortable and clean trains a day and 6 on Sundays is a massive improvement on the dirty smelly old sh1t boxes I remember from 20 years ago that went 4times a day but the track is still in bits for much of the journey!

Why should rosslare have a service at all? There is a perfectly adequate bus service that is faster than the train and runs hourly daytime and every two hours between 9pm and 7am as well as buses to cork limerick Waterford and Wexford. Just because England has railway lines serving ferry ports does not mean Ireland should have the same! Just because England has a sh1t does not mean ireland has to get in the que for the loo!

end of the road · 16-07-2012 4:09am

foggy_lad wrote: »

Not many people from Waterford or Kilkenny use the train, most drive or get the bus for price speed and comfort.

so IE should be improving things. closing it south of carlow is just taking the lazy way out.

foggy_lad wrote: »

the Sligo line is still at risk just as soon as someone starts up a limited stop bus service cutting out all the villages on the route. But your right 8 bright comfortable and clean trains a day and 6 on Sundays is a massive improvement on the dirty smelly old sh1t boxes I remember from 20 years ago that went 4times a day but the track is still in bits for much of the journey

again thats no excuse to close it, investment is what is needed, the roads got it so the railways deserve a piece of the pie. roads are no excuse to get rid of railways, we need an alternative to road transport.

foggy_lad wrote: »

Why should rosslare have a service at all?

why shouldn't it?

foggy_lad wrote: »

There is a perfectly adequate bus service that is faster than the train and runs hourly daytime and every two hours between 9pm and 7am as well as buses to cork limerick Waterford and Wexford.

not good enough. its no excuse to get rid of the service, their are many good busses around the country but its no excuse to get rid of the railway.

foggy_lad wrote: »

Just because England has railway lines serving ferry ports does not mean Ireland should have the same

doesn't mean we should get rid of the services to these ports either. it isn't because the UK has them that we should, its about GOING AFTER as many markets and attracting as many types of tourist to the country as we can, and if their was no demand for ferry connections in this country then their would be no connections on the UK side either, as most of the ferries are from the UK anyway. a couple of the ferries go to france but i don't know how connections work there or if they have them.

Qualitymark · 16-07-2012 6:28am

The ferry connections in Britain don't work properly any more either. The ferry companies tolerate foot traffic - their preferred customers are driving cars. In Holyhead, the rail lines leading to the quay where the ferries dock are still in existence, but not in use - you get a shuttle bus to the train station, then often have to wait an hour for the train, then, if you're going to London, you have to change at Chester or Crewe, and often wait another hour for this change.

There's not a lot of point looking to the broken society next door, as Irish working-class people usually do; we're better off looking to one of the European societies whose trains work properly, like France.

davidlacey · 16-07-2012 7:17am

On previous outings on the ferry from dun laoghaire to holyhead the amount of foot passengers was minimal but i think the dublin - rosslare route is more than a ferry route these days. Most of the passengers are people going to work in dublin and coming home in the evenings. But this is getting of the point now....

I think its the wrong attitude to have to think that IE should shut down these links around the country. Shutting down these links as i said before will do nothing but transfer more people to the road and also limit our options getting places. IE needs to cut costs but i believe with a more efficient service, cut in workforce and an end to the money wasting that this company has constantly been involved in, then they might be in a better place in a few years time. But alot of simple things which people have mentioned could be sorted if there was more accountability from the top, who is barry kenny actually accountable to? a board of directors? the government? It is a company plagued with everything that is wrong with semi state companies and needs a major overhall as a company before anything positive gets done, and i realise a private company will not come in to a debt ridden company but one could dream at that possibility :rolleyes:

foggy_lad · 16-07-2012 10:05am

end of the road wrote: »

so IE should be improving things. closing it south of carlow is just taking the lazy way out.

again thats no excuse to close it, investment is what is needed, the roads got it so the railways deserve a piece of the pie. roads are no excuse to get rid of railways, we need an alternative to road transport.

why shouldn't it?

not good enough. its no excuse to get rid of the service, their are many good busses around the country but its no excuse to get rid of the railway.

doesn't mean we should get rid of the services to these ports either. it isn't because the UK has them that we should, its about GOING AFTER as many markets and attracting as many types of tourist to the country as we can, and if their was no demand for ferry connections in this country then their would be no connections on the UK side either, as most of the ferries are from the UK anyway. a couple of the ferries go to france but i don't know how connections work there or if they have them.

In short Irish rail have had their chips and far too long IMHO to sort themselves out, there really is no conceivable way that rail travel will be anything other than an expensive plaything for those who frequent first class and a massive burden on the state until it is dismantled. By all means keep old alignments like Waterford to limerick junction but no more care and maintenance please.

As for tourists there are not enough enthusiasts to keep a whole railway network running just for tourism.

There are buses which are faster more comfortable and far cheaper on all routes so get rid of the railway now instead of pouring more money down into the money spong that Irish rail has always been.

steamengine · 16-07-2012 10:14am

foggy_lad wrote: »

In short Irish rail have had their chips and far too long IMHO to sort themselves out, there really is no conceivable way that rail travel will be anything other than an expensive plaything for those who frequent first class and a massive burden on the state until it is dismantled. By all means keep old alignments like Waterford to limerick junction but no more care and maintenance please.

As for tourists there are not enough enthusiasts to keep a whole railway network running just for tourism.

There are buses which are faster more comfortable and far cheaper on all routes so get rid of the railway now instead of pouring more money down into the money spong that Irish rail has always been.

So now we compound all their perceived errors and discard 100's of billions of Euros worth of infrastructure to boot. Brilliant !!! :rolleyes:

bk · 16-07-2012 10:18am

murphaph wrote: »

Are you sure? Airline passengers in 1st certainly subsidise the tickets in economy-without 1st a flight to NY would cost significantly more for an economy passenger, even if the whole plane was economy seating. I would imagine it's similar for the railways?

Yes first class subsidies economy on long distance flights, but you can't compare airlines internationally with trains in Ireland.

Think about it, you typically only have first class on long distance flights. Ryanair has no first class or even business class. AerLingus shorthaul has a very basic business class product which is basically only a slightly wider seat and priority boarding.

Basically in airlines people are only interested and willing to pay for first class where you are travelling long distances for many hours and want the comfort of a larger seat to sleep in.

The problem in Ireland is the distances are very short, thus no one is willing to pay the extra for a first class seat to sleep in. The standard class seats are more then good enough for the max 3 hours that most intercity journeys are.

Trains in Ireland are more like short haul airlines and should be compared with those.

First class on trains in Ireland is an expense, not a benefit.

jacko1 wrote: »

excellent post
The two Cork commuter routes(Cork-Midleton & Cork/Cobh) are a template for a well run rail service.

Yes and this success is down mostly to the Cork City and County Councils and there very long term plans like CASP, which lead it the development of towns in clusters around public transport, etc.

It had little to do with Irish Rail.

Cork is a good example of how to do it right. Long term planning and most importantly executing on that plan (e.g. only granting planning permission for houses in the planned areas). Creation of towns with high population densities close to accessible train stations all along the line, making the train attractive and giving it the passengers it requires to be successful.

This is the total opposite of the Western Rail Corridor thinking where they said built it and they will come and they never came. This is the opposite of just opening rail lines for the sake of opening lines which some people on this forum seem to support.

No we need to encourage and build a really national spatial strategy that will encourage high density urban living in planned towns, then we can make rail work.

corktina · 16-07-2012 10:23am

steamengine wrote: »

So now we compound all their perceived errors and discard 100's of billions of Euros worth of infrastructure to boot. Brilliant !!! :rolleyes:

I too am shocked to hear a proposal to close down rail altogether. Certainly suburban routes need to be retained and developed and InterCity has a place on most routes, but needs re-thinking . Other lightly used loss-making lines will have to go though.

gobnaitolunacy · 16-07-2012 10:49am

Has anyone travelled Business/1st Class/Citygold or whatever they call it now?
What, if any, are the perks?

foggy_lad · 16-07-2012 11:12am

steamengine wrote: »

So now we compound all their perceived errors and discard 100's of billions of Euros worth of infrastructure to boot. Brilliant !!! :rolleyes:

100's of Billions??? I doubt very much that the Irish Rail network lock stock and barrel is worth much more than one billion, and if it had to be replaced in its entirety starting tomorrow we would at least be able to discard the dirty old look and feel of Irish rail and build lines where they were needed as well as running all the lines from Heuston station into Dublin

gobnaitolunacy wrote: »

Has anyone travelled Business/1st Class/Citygold or whatever they call it now?
What, if any, are the perks?

Yes and you get very little of any value for your €100 return to Belfast. there was a free newspaper but it was the Belfast Telegraph, the seat was comfortable and the carriage seemed very quiet which was great but the overall ride quality was the same because the line is so poor.

There really are no lines in Ireland that deserve a first class service, First class is seen more as an apology to business travellers for the poor ride quality and the long journey times.

steamengine · 16-07-2012 11:38am

foggy_lad wrote: »

100's of Billions??? I doubt very much that the Irish Rail network lock stock and barrel is worth much more than one billion, and if it had to be replaced in its entirety starting tomorrow we would at least be able to discard the dirty old look and feel of Irish rail and build lines where they were needed as well as running all the lines from Heuston station into Dublin

TBH I wouldn't be bothered arguing the toss with you, after advocating the complete closure of the railway system.

foggy_lad · 16-07-2012 11:44am

steamengine wrote: »

TBH I wouldn't be bothered arguing the toss with you, after advocating the complete closure of the railway system.

Why did you bother posting then?

How much can be saved by shutting down the WRC Nenagh Branch and the Waterford-LJ line? Answer: probably enough to save the rest of the railway network for a few more years but other changes would also be required to keep passengers instead of telling them they are criminals for making a small mistake etc. How about dealing with the criminals and thugs who frequent trains and frighten away paying passengers?

Why Are Irish Rail Failing so badly

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