Is Atheism a religion?

Doctor DooM · 21-05-2012 10:00am

Do Galvasean and I really have to do the Transformers-religion-as-a-parody-of-real-religion thing AGAIN?

Penn · 21-05-2012 10:03am

spannerotoole wrote: »

Without absolute proof its a position that is taken on blind faith. I don't believe in the young earth stuff, but i do believe that everything was created.

Blind faith would suggest no evidence. We have lots of evidence. We have mountains of evidence. Enough to categorically prove whether God exists or not? No, but enough to tip the scales much further in one direction than the other.

Besides which, do you have faith that there isn't an invisible, weightless, odourless, completely silent Chinese midget standing right behind you? Is that one of your religions? You don't have absolute proof that he isn't there, so do you worship him too?

Canis Lupus · 21-05-2012 10:04am

Doctor DooM wrote: »

Do Galvasean and I really have to do the Transformers-religion-as-a-parody-of-real-religion thing AGAIN?

Yes please. I want to do my dinobot gag again!

spannerotoole · 21-05-2012 10:07am

but the fact remains that everything is faith based, for example, i have faith that the earth will complete another rotation around the sun, i have faith that my bus will come, i have faith that our politicians will screw things up in a completely new and original manner, but i could be wrong on all of these things, the same way you could be wrong about there being no god(s).

Enkidu · 21-05-2012 10:15am

spannerotoole wrote: »

but the fact remains that everything is faith based, for example, i have faith that the earth will complete another rotation around the sun, i have faith that my bus will come, i have faith that our politicians will screw things up in a completely new and original manner, but i could be wrong on all of these things, the same way you could be wrong about there being no god(s).

When people resort to silly philosophical games like this, all I read is "I have no argument, so instead here is something meaningless". Stop for a minute and think how stupid a sentence the statement "I have faith the Earth will complete another rotation" is. In order to produce it, you have to distort faith out of its normal meaning to become a word meaning:

The state of less than 100% philosophical certainty

Which, of course, is not the meaning of the word. It then becomes something which can be said about anything and since it's universally applicable, it's universally worthless. It also sounds like something a finch would say.

Captain Chaos · 21-05-2012 10:16am

spannerotoole wrote: »

but the fact remains that everything is faith based, for example, i have faith that the earth will complete another rotation around the sun, but i could be wrong on all of these things, the same way you could be wrong about there being no god(s).

That has got nothing to do with faith. That is to do with the proven and tested time and time again laws of relativity and physics. The rest of those things are down to the human condition or error including the existance of God. You are not comparing like for like.

Squeeonline · 21-05-2012 10:17am

Not a religion.

We are more an organisation with a loose collection of ideologies. You wouldn't start calling the FG party a religion because its members had aligned beliefs.

Our beliefs happen to be about religion in the same way that FG are about how the country should be ruined. That doesnt make atheism a religion.

Quite a few atheists (my self included) would be offended to be called religious.

smokingman · 21-05-2012 10:24am

spannerotoole wrote: »

but the fact remains that everything is faith based, for example, i have faith that the earth will complete another rotation around the sun, i have faith that my bus will come, i have faith that our politicians will screw things up in a completely new and original manner, but i could be wrong on all of these things, the same way you could be wrong about there being no god(s).

YOU have faith, I have facts and the ability to discern randomness from subjective projection.

You have faith because it's all you know and the world would probably be too scary for you if, for one second, you couldn't insert your god, ideas of fate, luck etc into any situation or concept you can't understand.

I have trust in people but this is not faith, this is an opinion based on my own interaction with them. You see trust and faith as the same and the problem arises when you apply this "trust" to concepts like gods or fate - these are not people; these are abstract concepts that cannot confirm your trust like actual real people can.

Penn · 21-05-2012 10:41am

spannerotoole wrote: »

but the fact remains that everything is faith based, for example, i have faith that the earth will complete another rotation around the sun, i have faith that my bus will come, i have faith that our politicians will screw things up in a completely new and original manner, but i could be wrong on all of these things, the same way you could be wrong about there being no god(s).

But you're using multiple definitions of the word 'faith'.

faith
noun
1.confidence or trust in a person or thing: faith in another's ability.
2.belief that is not based on proof: He had faith that the hypothesis would be substantiated by fact.
3.belief in God or in the doctrines or teachings of religion: the firm faith of the Pilgrims.
4.belief in anything, as a code of ethics, standards of merit, etc.: to be of the same faith with someone concerning honesty.
5.a system of religious belief: the Christian faith; the Jewish faith.

Definitions 1 & 4 are not the same as definitions 2, 3 & 5.

"i have faith that the earth will complete another rotation around the sun" - Definition 1: confidence or trust in a thing (the movement of the earth)
"i have faith that my bus will come" - Definition 1: confidence or trust in a person (the busdriver/bus organisation)
"i have faith that our politicians will screw things up in a completely new and original manner" - Definition 1: confidence or trust in a person or thing (or in this case, confidence or trust in their inability to perform their job correctly), possibly a bit of Definition 4 too: belief in anything (failure in general of politicians and the political system)

"i have faith God exists" - Definition 2: belief not based on proof, Definition 3: belief in God and Definition 5: system of religious belief

Zombrex · 21-05-2012 11:37am

spannerotoole wrote: »

but the fact remains that everything is faith based

That would make the term "faith" pointless, if faith just means believing something.

Since that isn't what it means the point is someone moot.

Faith is the act of having a belief (most of the time in relation to a positive outcome) that is based not on assessment of the evidence this outcome will occur but on trust of some individual that they will ensure it does.

I believe that if I drop an egg it will fall to the ground and smash based on the evidence gathered of previous such occurrences. I am not trusting the egg to ensure this will happen. Neither the egg nor the floor have any control over this process.

I have faith that if I was stuck in town at 4am without any money one of my friends would lend me taxi fair because I trust that they would wish to look out for me. I am putting my faith in them that they will not simply leave me alone in the city centre walking home, though this is a possible outcome. They have control over the outcome and I trust that they will ensure the outcome that benefits me will be the one that comes about.

Some where along the line modern religious people started redefining "faith" to some how just mean believing stuff based on reasonable assessment of the evidence, probably because they didn't like the implication previous that religious faith was in fact belief in something based on little evidence.

Logical Fallacy · 21-05-2012 11:38am

spannerotoole wrote: »

Without absolute proof its a position that is taken on blind faith. I don't believe in the young earth stuff, but i do believe that everything was created.

Everything was created. I don't think you will find anyone here who says everything wasn't created.

What's mostly at question with regard to Atheism is the mechanism of creation.

biko · 21-05-2012 11:44am

Atheism is like a religion is like Scientology is like a religion.

Squeeonline · 21-05-2012 12:06pm

biko wrote: »

Atheism is like a religion is like Scientology is like a religion.

but atheism isn't a cult.

or is it?

biko · 21-05-2012 12:23pm

I was think more like neither is a real religion.
Guess that joke backfired on me

Galvasean · 21-05-2012 1:10pm

celticcrash wrote: »

Our Richard who are`nt in heaven.
Dawkins be your name.
The king dont cum.
Your will be done.
On earth as it is`nt in heaven.
For give us this thread. Our daily post.
And dont forgive us ourtreaspasses as
we blast those with piss who tresspass against us.
And lead us to coke and hookers
but deliver us from modarators.
Richard.

Huhu huh huh.... :pac:

Doctor DooM wrote: »

Do Galvasean and I really have to do the Transformers-religion-as-a-parody-of-real-religion thing AGAIN?

spannerotoole wrote: »

but the fact remains that everything is faith based, for example, i have faith that the earth will complete another rotation around the sun, i have faith that my bus will come, i have faith that our politicians will screw things up in a completely new and original manner, but i could be wrong on all of these things, the same way you could be wrong about there being no god(s).

Since you previously said atheism is a religion because atheists believe there is no God do you, by that very same logic, think believing the Earth revolves around the sun is a religion? Do you believe waiting on a bus is a religion? Do think believing in the ineptitude of politicians is a religion?
Because, frankly, that's a load of bollocks.

The Mad Hatter · 21-05-2012 1:13pm

Galvasean wrote: »

Huhu huh huh.... :pac:

That's how we know the conception was immaculate.*

*Yes, pedants, I know that this is not what immaculate conception refers to.

Undergod · 21-05-2012 2:18pm

Ellis Dee wrote: »

Atheism is a refusal/failure/inability/unwillingness to believe the unbelievable. Atheists believe only things that can be observed or detected with the senses or instruments.:rolleyes:

SOME atheists are described by that. In the technical sense, we've got to remember there are atheists who believe in magical nonsense, they just don't believe in deities.

Logical Fallacy · 21-05-2012 10:01pm

Undergod wrote: »

SOME atheists are described by that. In the technical sense, we've got to remember there are atheists who believe in magical nonsense, they just don't believe in deities.

One of the funniest incidents I have had regarding Atheist is an very loud and aggressive atheist who told us all he was an atheist because he didn't believe in "fairy tales and bull****" and kept talking about how much he loved science.

He owned a Homeopathy shop.

lulz.

Squeeonline · 21-05-2012 11:24pm

if it was profitable, and he was able to make money from peoples' gullibility then awesome. As long as he knows that homeopathy is largely a pile of ****.

Logical Fallacy wrote: »

One of the funniest incidents I have had regarding Atheist is an very loud and aggressive atheist who told us all he was an atheist because he didn't believe in "fairy tales and bull****" and kept talking about how much he loved science.

He owned a Homeopathy shop.

lulz.

Michael Nugent · 21-05-2012 11:41pm

Malpaisian wrote: »

Is Atheism a religion? Discuss!

Atheism is a religion like I am the egg man.

They are the egg men.

I am the walrus, goo goo gajoob.

Awopbopaloobop alopbamboom.

joseph brand · 22-05-2012 12:31am

Logical Fallacy wrote: »

One of the funniest incidents I have had regarding Atheist is an very loud and aggressive atheist who told us all he was an atheist because he didn't believe in "fairy tales and bull****" and kept talking about how much he loved science.

He owned a Homeopathy shop.

lulz.

He probably doesn't 'buy' into the whole alternative medicine crap himself, but knows that other eejits do.

I'd guess he looks like this, when a customer arrives into his fine establishment:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YKUOB8MN4Kc

joseph brand · 22-05-2012 12:39am

spannerotoole wrote: »

but the fact remains that everything is faith based, for example, i have faith that the earth will complete another rotation around the sun, i have faith that my bus will come, i have faith that our politicians will screw things up in a completely new and original manner, but i could be wrong on all of these things, the same way you could be wrong about there being no god(s).

If I wanted to troll, as an undercover Atheist, highlighting the way creationist christians think talk rubbish, I'd probably post in a similar style to yours above.

I can tell that you are joking, it's so obvious.

Turtwig · 22-05-2012 12:41am

joseph brand wrote: »

If I wanted to troll, as an undercover Atheist, highlighting the way creationist christians think talk rubbish, I'd probably post in a similar style to yours above.

I can tell that you are joking, it's so obvious.

It seems you still have some faith in humanity.

GET HIM!!

Whelpling · 22-05-2012 12:47am

Michael Nugent wrote: »

It is a significant mistake to see the creation of community as a property of religion that atheists are replicating.

I'd agree, if I weren't attempting to counter the oft-held belief of the religious that us atheists must be religious since we gather to discuss our 'faith' that gods do not exist. Which is of course not the case. They are often confused (or at the very least pretending to be confused), about our need or desire to 'congregate'. I have heard it said by some formerly-religious atheists (I don't have references, sorry - forum posts, blog comments and such) that they find the atheist and/or humanist gatherings that they go to can act as a replacement for the 'community' feeling they once got from church. I don't think that atheists are 'replicating' what religions do, but for some they certainly seem to 'fill the hole' so to speak, in this particular context.

I like your rephrasing better for almost all other contexts, though, and I see why you posted the correction.

Michael Nugent wrote: »

I would rephrase [...] to something like this:

One thing that people and other animals do very well is to create communities for themselves. Religions and atheist groups and nations and tribes and tennis clubs and residents associations and internet discussion boards and troops of apes and pods of dolphins and herds of elephants are examples of that very positive aspect of living together.

Also, the creation of communities has negative effects as well as positive ones.

Whelpling · 22-05-2012 12:56am

spannerotoole wrote: »

you could be wrong about there being no god(s).

Atheism is not a belief that there are no gods. It's a lack of belief that there are gods. The semantic difference is subtle but significant. The first is a position of faith, really. The second is a reasoned statement founded in a lack of evidence for the existence of any of the thousands of gods that have been alleged to exist over our recorded history.

endacl · 22-05-2012 1:12am

OK. Enough. I've cracked. Atheism is totally a religion. We're all secret followers of the Great Athie. Well, not secret as such any more, since I've spilled the beans. I'll probably be excommunicated at the next AGM. There are several holy books, with humorous titles. I can't remember the titles offhand, but I can assure you they are funny. Maybe some of my fellow Athie-ists will help out in this regard. Likewise with many of our edicts and commandments, which I've also forgotten.

Well done OP. We are exposed for the religion we are....

Whelpling · 22-05-2012 2:12am

endacl wrote: »

OK. Enough. I've cracked. Atheism is totally a religion. We're all secret followers of the Great Athie. Well, not secret as such any more, since I've spilled the beans. I'll probably be excommunicated at the next AGM. There are several holy books, with humorous titles. I can't remember the titles offhand, but I can assure you they are funny. Maybe some of my fellow Athie-ists will help out in this regard. Likewise with many of our edicts and commandments, which I've also forgotten.

Well done OP. We are exposed for the religion we are....

Don't forget the funny handshake. We have a funny handshake.

endacl · 22-05-2012 2:15am

Whelpling wrote: »

endacl wrote: »

OK. Enough. I've cracked. Atheism is totally a religion. We're all secret followers of the Great Athie. Well, not secret as such any more, since I've spilled the beans. I'll probably be excommunicated at the next AGM. There are several holy books, with humorous titles. I can't remember the titles offhand, but I can assure you they are funny. Maybe some of my fellow Athie-ists will help out in this regard. Likewise with many of our edicts and commandments, which I've also forgotten.

Well done OP. We are exposed for the religion we are....

Don't forget the funny handshake. We have a funny handshake.

Bugger. The handshake. I always forget the handshake....

Michael Nugent · 22-05-2012 3:48am

Whelpling wrote: »

Atheism is not a belief that there are no gods. It's a lack of belief that there are gods. The semantic difference is subtle but significant.

Well, atheism can mean either of these concepts. It is one of many words that has multiple meanings.

Whelpling wrote: »

The first is a position of faith, really. The second is a reasoned statement founded in a lack of evidence for the existence of any of the thousands of gods that have been alleged to exist over our recorded history.

Believing that there are no gods is not a position of faith. It is a reasonable belief that is consistent with the most reliable available evidence. I think too much is often made of (and too much conceded by) emphasising the semantic difference between the two concepts.

Michael Nugent · 22-05-2012 3:53am

Whelpling wrote: »

I'd agree, if I weren't attempting to counter the oft-held belief of the religious that us atheists must be religious since we gather to discuss our 'faith' that gods do not exist. Which is of course not the case. They are often confused (or at the very least pretending to be confused), about our need or desire to 'congregate'.

That's fair enough. I think the best way to counter it is to remind them that it is a human need (indeed a need of conscious beings) and not a religious need.

Whelpling wrote: »

I have heard it said by some formerly-religious atheists (I don't have references, sorry - forum posts, blog comments and such) that they find the atheist and/or humanist gatherings that they go to can act as a replacement for the 'community' feeling they once got from church. I don't think that atheists are 'replicating' what religions do, but for some they certainly seem to 'fill the hole' so to speak, in this particular context.

And perhaps we need to remind some atheists of the distinction too

Whelpling · 22-05-2012 4:11am

I'll leave you and others to their own definitions then, Michael. You're right. I should have stated that to me, my personal atheism doesn't equate to "I believe no gods exist", but is rather "I do not believe that any gods exist".

If I had to answer yes or no to the question "do you believe that no gods exist" it would be a yes, of course. But for explaining my views on a discussion forum, I tend to get a little more semantically nuanced. Particularly if that nuancing will better aid me in putting a point across - in this case, the point that atheism is absence of belief, not belief itself (hard, when you say "I believe...). Colour me a pedant!

CajunPenguin · 22-05-2012 4:11am

It's not, but it might as well be. Atheists going on about how organised religion is evil are stupid, atheism is a community of people with a set of views, no different to a religion. All atheists are roughly the same. If you saw the South Park episode about the future where everyone is atheist you'll probably notice the subtext. It's pointing out that the stereotypical atheist (and there's an alarming amount of them) is a self righteous douchebag who thinks he's so very smart for being converted, when at the end of the day it was a change in opinion and nothing more. They're still people and they're no better or worse than theists. I wrote a post about it on reddit. Those atheists are ****ing psychos, they missed the point completely and kept quizzing me about the bible. Fortunately the community on boards is much nicer and less insane "burn down these motha****in churches" people. Think about it atheists, how many of your mates are catholic or protestant or whatever? you wouldn't buy into the stereotype that declan moffat from Navan is a crazy right wing conservative who hates gays, blacks and women (and if your friend is like this he's you're weird) just because he has a trivial difference to you

Whelpling · 22-05-2012 4:11am

omg go to bed

Whelpling · 22-05-2012 4:18am

CajunPenguin wrote: »

Think about it atheists, how many of your mates are catholic or protestant or whatever?

My mother is C of E
My father is non-denominational Christian
My grandparents are Catholic on one side, Protestant on the other
My partner is a lapsed Catholic
My best friend is a Jehovah's witness
Among my closest friends there are born again Christians, Anglicans, Pagans, Catholics and a woman who thinks she channels spirits. And a couple Atheists.

What insight do you have about me now that I answered your question?

Michael Nugent · 22-05-2012 4:32am

CajunPenguin wrote: »

atheism is a community of people with a set of views, no different to a religion.

On that basis, people who like banana sandwiches are a community of people with a set of views, no different to a religion.

So are people who don’t like banana sandwiches.

And everyone is in multiple religions based on any and all of the views about anything they share with any and all other people.

CajunPenguin wrote: »

All atheists are roughly the same.

No we're not. Some of us are in the atheist religion that likes banana sandwiches, and some of us are in the atheist religion that doesn't like banana sandwiches.

You've a lot to learn about us.

Whelpling · 22-05-2012 4:41am

I belong to a sub-cult. We like toasted banana sandwiches.

dead one · 22-05-2012 5:29am

Atheist are very religious when it comes to defend their faith. I am saying a very deep thing, It needs wisdom to understand it. If you can't understand then don't waste your time by quoting me.

HUNK · 22-05-2012 6:40am

dead one wrote: »

Atheist are very religious when it comes to defend their faith. I am saying a very deep thing, It needs wisdom to understand it. If you can't understand then don't waste your time by quoting me.

I quoted you anyway for the lulz.

Whelpling · 22-05-2012 6:43am

dead one wrote: »

Atheist are very religious when it comes to defend their faith. I am saying a very deep thing, It needs wisdom to understand it. If you can't understand then don't waste your time by quoting me.

Did you forget to include this very deep thing you're saying?

dead one · 22-05-2012 6:51am

Whelpling wrote: »

Did you forget to include this very deep thing you're saying?

did you forget you're quoting me in a topic "Is atheism a religion"... you've proved my point. It's called wisdom. You want us to show that "atheism isn't a religion"... It makes your desires religious... The purpose of your wishes is same i.e religious one...... Why do you care if atheism is religion or not...

bnt · 22-05-2012 6:53am

dead one wrote: »

Atheist are very religious when it comes to defend their faith. I am saying a very deep thing, It needs wisdom to understand it. If you can't understand then don't waste your time by quoting me.

Now, if only you had the wisdom to actually say this very deep thing ..? Do you realise that every one of your 800-or-so posts in this forum are available for everyone to read and laugh at?

I have read things written by wise people, and think I even know a few; but one thing all wise people have in common is that they would never claim to be wise.

Whelpling · 22-05-2012 6:59am

dead one wrote: »

did you forget you're quoting me in a topic "Is atheism a religion"... you've proved my point. It's called wisdom. You want us to show that "atheism isn't a religion"... It makes your desires religious... The purpose of your wishes is same i.e religious one...... Why do you care if atheism is religion or not...

I can't help but notice that you sort of avoided my question there.

Which point have I proved?

What is called wisdom?

Who is this 'us' that I apparently wish to show that atheism isn't a religion?

What desires of mine are religious, and why?

What is the purpose of my wishes, exactly, and how are they religious?

Who said that I cared if atheism was a religion or not?

I'm afraid you're going to have to make a concerted effort to make a little sense if you're expecting me to discuss anything with you on any sort of meaningful level.

By all means, if you're just here to make yourself feel better by repeating nonsense, let me know so I can avoid wasting time and leave you to it.

dead one · 22-05-2012 7:03am

bnt wrote: »

Now, if only you had the wisdom to actually say this very deep thing ..?

I have read things written by wise people, and think I even know a few; but one thing all wise people have in common is that they would never claim to be wise.

Are you smoking, I had said, only wise will understand what i am saying... i didn't say that i am wise...It needs wisdom to understand wisdom and it's nature of wise to resist pleasures, only fool to slave... Why i am saying this here, because i know, majority of you are slave to pleasures... It's a process..

bnt · 22-05-2012 7:10am

dead one wrote: »

Are you smoking, I had said, only wise will understand what i am saying... i didn't say that i am wise...It needs wisdom to understand wisdom and it's nature of wise to resist pleasures, only fool to slave... Why i am saying this here, because i know, majority of you are slave to pleasures... It's a process..

So, you are not wise enough to understand what you are saying? Holy cow, we're in the presence of a true prophet! :pac:

dead one · 22-05-2012 7:11am

Whelpling wrote: »

By all means, if you're just here to make yourself feel better by repeating nonsense, let me know so I can avoid wasting time and leave you to it.

Dude, you've already wasted your time by showing your ignorance and arrogance... read my first ... I said, if you don't understand wisdom then stop quoting me... Now in above post you said... "What is wisdom" -- Dude, what's matter with you... you've proved all of my point, you're very religious and that's why you've started quoting me and now you're blaming me... .. thank and peace

Whelpling · 22-05-2012 7:12am

bnt wrote: »

So, you are not wise enough to understand what you are saying? Holy cow, we're in the presence of a true prophet! :pac:

Thou shalt not take the Holy Cow's name in vain.

dead one · 22-05-2012 7:12am

bnt wrote: »

So, you are not wise enough to understand what you are saying? Holy cow, we're in the presence of a true prophet! :pac:

read what you said...

bnt wrote: »

I have read things written by wise people, and think I even know a few; but one thing all wise people have in common is that they would never claim to be wise.

now, you will be wise to understand me..

Whelpling · 22-05-2012 7:14am

dead one wrote: »

Dude, you've already wasted your time by showing your ignorance and arrogance... read my first ... I said, if you don't understand wisdom then stop quoting me... Now in above post you said... "What is wisdom" -- Dude, what's matter with you... you're proved all of my point, you're very religious and that's why you've started quoting me and now you're blaming me... .. thank and peace

That was all the proof you needed to state that he/she is religious?

No wonder you're religious.

dead one · 22-05-2012 7:17am

Whelpling wrote: »

That was all the proof you needed to state that he/she is religious?
No wonder you're religious.

It's a research, i can judge a person by his/her post... you're religious person in defense of your faith... You can attack other people as you've attacked me... Why are you so personal in defending your lack of faith..

bnt · 22-05-2012 7:23am

dead one wrote: »

now, you will be wise to understand me..

Or, you could try writing your message in plain language, understandable to all, so that "wisdom" (whatever you mean by that) is not required?

It's not a coincidence that "holy scriptures" are written in ambiguous language with many possible interpretations; if they were written clearly, people would not be able to invent religions based on them.

Your "wisdom", whether you have it or not, looks more like a set of assumptions which you are unable to articulate and which I don't share.

Is Atheism a religion?

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