What's the most frustrating thing about being atheist?

Dades · 13-03-2012 6:07pm

lazygal wrote:

What's the most frustrating thing about being atheist?

Finding shoes that fit.

Paddycrumlinman · 13-03-2012 6:49pm

Being the general exception to the rule that is Religion. You mention your an atheist and the looks you get. Now in saying the Above, I live in Florida, in the middle the Bible Belt with "In God We Trust" inscribed in each dollar amount in circulation.

What frustrates me most, the reasoning of the Religious folks in how, no matter how many facts that are present, they stick with their faith no matter what. Their kid could have a bullet in the head, as sure, Gods will!

I simply see Religion and God as a crutch for people. Even as an 8 year old grown up in Catholic Ireland, I could not understand how God or Gods fought with each other and how God or Gods did not like Gay people. At 8 years of age, I said to myself, I don't like a God who singles out people for who they are. I had that figured out at 8 years of age for crying out loud. The Pope disgusted me last week with his latest spiel on Gay Marriages.

I scratch my head as an Atheist and how the Religious world works, especially here in the States. Religion says Jump these people say how high.

The biggest illustration for me with Religion is that people use it as a Crutch. Now, in saying that, I do see how seeing your loved ones in heaven when you die can help people but I feel religion and the afterlife does nothing but stop people from living this life, right now at this moment, they are missing out on so much because they are too busy praying to god.

When I said enough is enough with God and Religion, especially coming from a Catholic upbringing, I was enlightened, the weight of this c rap was off my shoulders and it was the freest feeling in the world. I live life now because I know when i'm gone, i'm gone, its bye-bye- my time has come. It does not scare me one bit, its life and your here to live it now not in some phoney afterlife with all your annoying friends and relatives.

General frustration from me comes from people believing in this crap, how stupid or how s hitty does life have to be for someone to put all their faith in God. I'f I have a problem, praying is the last thing I will do to help an issue, a novel idea is to get up of your a rse and do something about your life as God is not going to help you.

Religion and Politics, how the both prop each other up to screw, manipulate and get the worst out of the regular joe soap.

If I tried to make up the religious s hit, you would have a hard time doing so. All a bunch of dribble..

sonicthebadger* · 13-03-2012 11:35pm

"You're so closed minded... I mean, so you don't believe in my imaginary friend, but you don't even consider the possibility that there might be some way for you to have a "special relationship" with an imaginary friend if you'd just open up to it."

Sometimes I fail to adequately bite my tongue when I hear this.

branie · 14-03-2012 10:36am

Being told "As long as you're under my roof, you'll go to Mass" by your parents Not an athist, but I imagine you'get that old chestnut all the time.

Calibos · 15-03-2012 3:18am

Every 4 years......Ma, I told you last time...the government don't want to know what I was baptised as, they want to know what I believe ....NOW! :rolleyes:

Delirium · 15-03-2012 11:07am

branie wrote: »

Being told "As long as you're under my roof, you'll go to Mass" by your parents Not an athist, but I imagine you'get that old chestnut all the time.

On the flipside, I tell my dad he has to renounce God if he wants enter my house :pac:

nozzferrahhtoo · 15-03-2012 12:53pm

The only thing I can think of that is frustrating about being an atheist.... is being an atheist.

I am not a racist, but racism has been so marginalized that I do not have to go around "being an a-racist". A-racist is just not something I have to be, do or declare. Let alone quibble with pedantic literalists who want to know if I am a strong a-racist, a weak a-racist or would I not be happier defining myself as a fence sitting agnosti-racist.

The target, for me, would be a world/society where being a theist is not even something relevant enough to even have an anti-pole term for but instead having to declare yourself an atheist will make as much sense as having to call yourself an a-racist or declare upon meeting people that you are not a stamp collector.

There simply is no arguments, evidence, data or reasons on offer to any of us, by anyone, that lend even a modicum of credence to the idea there is a god. The "atheist/theist" divide just gives an illusion of equivalence between the two positions which likely benefits the theist many times more than the atheist.

Duggys Housemate · 15-03-2012 1:09pm

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

The only thing I can think of that is frustrating about being an atheist.... is being an atheist.

I am not a racist, but racism has been so marginalized that I do not have to go around "being an a-racist". A-racist is just not something I have to be, do or declare. Let alone quibble with pedantic literalists who want to know if I am a strong a-racist, a weak a-racist or would I not be happier defining myself as a fence sitting agnosti-racist.

The target, for me, would be a world/society where being a theist is not even something relevant enough to even have an anti-pole term for but instead having to declare yourself an atheist will make as much sense as having to call yourself an a-racist or declare upon meeting people that you are not a stamp collector.

There simply is no arguments, evidence, data or reasons on offer to any of us, by anyone, that lend even a modicum of credence to the idea there is a god. The "atheist/theist" divide just gives an illusion of equivalence between the two positions which likely benefits the theist many times more than the atheist.

The problem you seem to have here is that everybody does not share you world-view? Totalitarian much?

God doesn't exist, but religion is a primal force in human nature, and it probably has evolutionary advantages, so it won't go away. Try and make it go away, and there will be a reaction.

The comparison with racism is a straw man trick, as racists are always bad people, but religious believers may not be.

There are plenty of views I find hilarious, or unscientific, in fact I used to belong to a Evolutionary site which generally attacked anti-ecolutionary thought ( mostly on the Left, we didn't deal with Creationists, since these were college level debates). I don't expect to win them out.

Bannasidhe · 15-03-2012 1:31pm

Duggys Housemate wrote: »

The problem you seem to have here is that everybody does not share you world-view? Totalitarian much?

God doesn't exist, but religion is a primal force in human nature, and it probably has evolutionary advantages, so it won't go away. Try and make it go away, and there will be a reaction.

The comparison with racism is a straw man trick, as racists are always bad people, but religious believers may not be.

There are plenty of views I find hilarious, or unscientific, in fact I used to belong to a Evolutionary site which generally attacked anti-ecolutionary thought ( mostly on the Left, we didn't deal with Creationists, since these were college level debates). I don't expect to win them out.

I think you have missed the point nozzferrahhtoo was making. My understanding of his post is that he thinks it is frustrating to even have to identify oneself as not being a thiest.

I would consider that it is akin to the general assumption that 'everyone' is heterosexual -the conversations can be quite similar:

'Are you married yourself?' 'No, the government won't let me'. '

'

'Is your husband with you?'. 'No, my girlfriend is.' '

'

'Is it just yourself and your...?' 'Girlfriend. Yes' '

'

'Are you sure you're not pregnant?' 'Absolutely.' 'How can you be so sure? What contraceptive are you using?' 'Homosexuality.' '

'

'Who is your next of kin?' 'My long-term monogamous same sex partner.' '

'

'Religion?' 'No thanks' '

'

'What are you giving up for Lent?' 'Religion' '

'

'I've just called round to collect the Parish dues.' 'I'm not a Catholic' 'Oh...so you're Protestant?' 'No' 'Jewish?' 'No' 'ummmm...Muslim?' 'Nope - guess again.' '

'

All of the above are actual 'conversations' I have had...:rolleyes:

nozzferrahhtoo · 15-03-2012 3:25pm

A little off topic there, but since the mods do not appear to have stepped in I will bite and reply and apologize in advance if the mods think we are derailing.

Duggys Housemate wrote: »

The problem you seem to have here is that everybody does not share you world-view? Totalitarian much?

Straw man much?

The world would be a boring place indeed if everyone shared my world view exactly. The diversity of world views, opinions, desires, likes, dislikes and more in our world is one of the basis for how wonderful I find life and human society to be.

My issue is not therefore with differing world views at all as you paint it, but solely with entirely unsubstantiated, baseless and even dangerous world views which do not map onto reality in any way.

Again refer back to my analogy about a world view involving the belief that you can fly without the aid of technology. How ridiculous a straw man it is to suggest that if I show concern over such a world view that I am doing it solely because I am "totalitarian" or have issue with people having differing views to my own?

No, my concern would be that the world view in question not only does not map to reality in any way, but is likely to lead to pain, suffering and death.

Similarly my issues with theism are not as simplistic as you paint them... merely a personal issue with differing world views.... but with the fact that the world view in question does not map in any demonstration way to reality.

Put in short: I have no issue with differing opinions. I have only issue with entirely baseless and unsubstantiated opinions.

Duggys Housemate wrote: »

God doesn't exist, but religion is a primal force in human nature, and it probably has evolutionary advantages, so it won't go away.

I see no reason to think any of this sentence is true I am afraid. With the happy exception of the opening few words.

Probably not a subject for this thread as I said in the opening line, but I have covered it on many threads before. However I will break my issues with your sentence/position down into three areas.

First I know of no evolutionary advantages of religion and have heard none espoused.... aside from one users very poor and entirely unsubstantiated attempts to declare that not only does religion cause people to "reproduce more"... but all based on the massive error assumption that "more reproduction" is automatically synonymous with "better" in evolutionary terms and measures of success... so that anything that causes you to have more children is de facto "good" in evolutionary terms. Though I say this while noting that you were careful enough to put in "probably".

Second I never said I wanted it to "go away". Racist thought, as in my analogy in the first post, has not "Gone away" either. It is still there and in fact some interesting tests I can cite if you like have shown that even people who think they are as far from racist as it gets actually harbor racist thoughts and emotions and reactions. So no.... the goal for me would not be to make it "go away" but to have it... like racism.... marginalized to the point it plays no real role in our world... those who espouse it are too marginalized.... and most importantly there is no requirement to define oneself in opposition to it with terms like "a-racist".

Third I do not see it as a "primal force" at all. I see it more as a side effect of things that are natural to us, rather than it being itself natural to us. There are things our species has evolved that are actually good for us, which religion uses in order to perpetuate itself in us. This is more a "byproduct" hypothesis than a "primal force" one.

bnt · 16-03-2012 10:33am

Just being an atheist is not frustrating, but I've lived in Ireland for 12 years now (I'm from the UK via South Africa), and I do get a little miffed at parochial attitudes to religion here. There are folks who really need to get out and see other parts of the world, where there are billions and billions of people who are not Catholic - who get along just fine in other religions or no religion at all. You have the Church doing things that in other countries are done by the State, such as schools, but that's an accident of history, not the way things should be done. Just because you have Catholicism "in the water", it doesn't mean Catholicism is "normal" or the "default religion", and it doesn't make you superior to anyone who isn't Catholic. "Catholic Ireland" is not the world, it's a religious "bubble" that's currently bursting in slow motion. :cool:

Tigger · 16-03-2012 10:42am

koth wrote: »

On the flipside, I tell my dad he has to renounce God if he wants enter my house :pac:

Might as well renounce Luke skywalker.

To me it's agnostics
Or people who say I can't be sure that social construct invented by a shamen of the nomadic tribes of the middle east is less likley then my crazy ideas.

Sarky · 16-03-2012 10:48am

The horrified and confused looks you get for answering a yes or no question with a yes or no.

equivariant · 16-03-2012 10:53am

The lack of an immortal soul

robindch · 16-03-2012 10:57am

bnt wrote: »

[...] parochial attitudes [... - ...] folks [...] really need to get out and see other parts of the world

One elderly relative of mine likes to tell me what it's like "in muslim countries" according to the Melanie-Phillips-level hate-lit she reads. So I reply by telling her stories of things I've seen in "muslim countries".

First-hand experience from a family member versus crayon-level propaganda from known liars?

Guess which ones wins

Duggys Housemate · 16-03-2012 10:59am

nozzferrahhtoo wrote: »

The world would be a boring place indeed if everyone shared my world view exactly. The diversity of world views, opinions, desires, likes, dislikes and more in our world is one of the basis for how wonderful I find life and human society to be.

My issue is not therefore with differing world views at all as you paint it, but solely with entirely unsubstantiated, baseless and even dangerous world views which do not map onto reality in any way.

Which then would reduce the world to people who agree with you, assuming you are always right ( which as we will see you are not). You may happen in other cases to be right, but it doesn't matter. Your world would ban religion, and spiritualism, and Marxism, and Freudism ( neither of which have any more proof than religion). And so on. Most stuff, in fact. There are few scientists.

First I know of no evolutionary advantages of religion and have heard none espoused....

Here's a link. There is a debate but I go with the adaptive, natural and voluntary advantage of it, rather than the by-product.

aside from one users very poor and entirely unsubstantiated attempts to declare that not only does religion cause people to "reproduce more"... but all based on the massive error assumption that "more reproduction" is automatically synonymous with "better" in evolutionary terms and measures of success... so that anything that causes you to have more children is de facto "good" in evolutionary terms. Though I say this while noting that you were careful enough to put in "probably".

He was right, and you were wrong. Evolution is not about getting better, it is about survival. Any creature which reproduces more is more evolutionary more successful over time that one who isn't, no matter how the other creature is "perfecting" - a meaningless phrase.

Second I never said I wanted it to "go away". Racist thought, as in my analogy in the first post, has not "Gone away" either. It is still there and in fact some interesting tests I can cite if you like have shown that even people who think they are as far from racist as it gets actually harbor racist thoughts and emotions and reactions.

Actually those tests are massively unscientific, they can't actually prove the bias unless the bias manifests itself in some other way, i.e. outward displays of racism. This would be how we would analyse other animals.

So no.... the goal for me would not be to make it "go away" but to have it... like racism.... marginalized to the point it plays no real role in our world... those who espouse it are too marginalized.... and most importantly there is no requirement to define oneself in opposition to it with terms like "a-racist".

You are equating the hatred of a race, with personal religious believes which you want to go away, the assumption is both are evil. If not, why should religion go away?

To many people the religious beliefs are fundamental to their existence, and the more you push against them the more they will get more radicalised. In particular Islam - which is growing - is not going away. Christianity will probably rebound too.

Third I do not see it as a "primal force" at all. I see it more as a side effect of things that are natural to us, rather than it being itself natural to us. There are things our species has evolved that are actually good for us, which religion uses in order to perpetuate itself in us. This is more a "byproduct" hypothesis than a "primal force" one.

Read the link above, it is true that co-operation etc. helps the group, what religion has done is extend the group definition.

MrTimewalk · 16-03-2012 11:09am

The single thing that grinds my gears is 'catholic' schools. I live in the country and recently we have been looking at schools for my son. the only ones nearby are 'catholic' schools, they say prayers in the morning, teach religion and so on. Don't get me wrong if at 18 my son turns around and says "I want to be a catholic" I have NO problem nor has my wife with this but I don't want his mind perverted by fairy tales as he grows up. If we want to opt out of reglion in the schools we have to call to the school and take him out or he can go to another room, but one way or another he'll be 'different' to the other kids.

rojorolo · 16-03-2012 11:25am

I think the thing I found the strangest was dealing with a death in a Catholic family. My grandmother died and I was comforted by the fact she led a good happy life filled with love and though she was no more she made the most of her life. My family foucsed on the fact they would see her in heaven and she was with her Father etc.

This really comforted my Grandad so i didn't argue but it seemed to detract from what I thought was a more positive way to view things.

Lol another joy of athesim is when I do get dragged to mass I have noticed priests speeches after the gospels usually mention non belivers and how your life is basically screwed without letting God into it. I am beginning to suspect he is tipped off I am there by my family lol

Sarky · 16-03-2012 11:34am

rojorolo wrote: »

Lol another joy of athesim is when I do get dragged to mass I have noticed priests speeches after the gospels usually mention non belivers and how your life is basically screwed without letting God into it. I am beginning to suspect he is tipped off I am there by my family lol

Oh, they do it all the time, it's the main focus of any sermon I've ever heard. They do it at regular mass, weddings, funerals... Nothing is, ahem, sacred as far as telling everyone you're doomed without jebus is concerned.

robindch · 16-03-2012 11:41am

rojorolo wrote: »

[...] I have noticed priests speeches after the gospels usually mention non belivers and how your life is basically screwed without letting God into it.

I wonder has anybody ever stood up and taken on some preacher doing this?

Dades · 16-03-2012 11:46am

robindch wrote: »

I wonder has anybody ever stood up and taken on some preacher doing this?

You'd be lynched, or at least *tutted* to death by the silver brigade.

nozzferrahhtoo · 16-03-2012 11:58am

Duggys Housemate wrote: »

Which then would reduce the world to people who agree with you

Not sure where you are pulling that from as I said I value a world where people have differing opinions to me. On many things. Again my issue is not with people who think or believe differently to me, but with people who espouse entirely unsubstantiated claims. Nor have you shown any reason why having an issue with unsubstantiated claims is bad.

Duggys Housemate wrote: »

Here's a link

Indeed it is. I suggest you try reading it too as it supports more what I am saying, not what you are saying. So thanks for that link. Alas it is only wikipedia and not a link of any actual authority, but thanks anyway.

In the link it discusses much the same things I just did. For example Religion as an evolutionary by product. Or religion as a virus or meme. Little of the link discusses evolutionary advantages of religion to us... but of the benefits of evolution to religion. Entirely different thing.

Aside from links to wikipedia there is little to support any evolutionary advantage to religion at all. Anything that you can find to support such a thing is support for religion in the PAST. I am certainly unaware of any arguments to suggest there is advantages to it NOW. Saying something had evolutionary advantage to us 10,000 years ago is not the same as saying it has evolutionary advantage. The difference is not subtle.

Duggys Housemate wrote: »

Any creature which reproduces more is more evolutionary more successful over time

Not so I am afraid. How many off spring you have is not synonymous with evolutionary success. The number of off spring one has is a "strategy" in evolution, not a success measure. Many creatures evolve towards having many many off spring, while many others such as ourselves evolve towards having fewer.

Humans for example have evolved towards having a single child at a time. Having had them we have evolved towards not having more for quite some time. Nursing for example causes a break in the menstrual cycle preventing conception. Father caring recently has also been linked to reductions in testosterone.

The real measure of "success" in evolution is longevity and that can be achieved by having fewer off spring just as well as having more. In fact I have read studies linking smaller family sizes in previous centuries to those families having more, not less, surviving descendants today. In other words those families having more off spring were selected against.

So I am afraid the user I was referring to, and now yourself, are both simply wrong to paint larger off spring numbers are being automatically synonymous with "better" in evolutionary terms. It simply is not so. You could have 100 children and they could all die and I could have one... who has one.... who has one.... who has one.... and my lineage will outlive yours by many generations.

Duggys Housemate wrote: »

Actually those tests are massively unscientific

Not so. But also irrelevant to the point I was making so not worth derailing into a discussion about. The point I am making is that nothing I have said, or nothing I am espousing, requires religion to "Go away" and in fact many posts I have made on these fora were about how I do not expect it to ever, or at least not for many generations.

The point I am making is that the things I do espouse, or aspire towards, in no way require that religion "go away". I would, instead, aspire towards seeing it marginalized in the same way racism has been, even though racism has also not "gone away". Racism still exists. Religion likely will too. That does not mean we can not marginalize its effects as we have done with racism.

Despite your attempts to paint it otherwise, I really have no issue with people who think there is a god, or want to practice a religion or a personal faith. My issue solely lies with publicly espousing unsubstantiated beliefs or with attempts to implement same in our halls of power, education or science.

panda100 · 16-03-2012 12:03pm

Sarky wrote: »

Oh, they do it all the time, it's the main focus of any sermon I've ever heard. They do it at regular mass, weddings, funerals... Nothing is, ahem, sacred as far as telling everyone you're doomed without jebus is concerned.

Last mass I went to was Christmas day mass in Rathkeale with my family. The priest went on a tirade about how not believing in God made you a selfish person. His reasoning was that If you don't believe in God or the scripture, then you have only one thing to believe in and that's yourself. He went on to say that you have no motivation to do anything good for anyone but yourself.

I sat there thinking of my a la carte catholic family sitting beside me, whom seem to be motivated by one thing in life and one thing only,money. But who am I to judge. Afterwards, I was saying to my family about how insulting I found the sermon, and none of them could remember what the sermon was about!

cowzerp · 18-03-2012 2:02pm

Seeing loved ones believing in an imaginary friend and thinking heaven awaits, my family are not too religious but some waste their whole lives following a made up super man

Zombrex · 18-03-2012 2:51pm

Trying really really hard not to appear smug when a religious person says something really really stupid, because you are trying to not play up to the stereotype of the smug atheist.

"No, I think it is perfectly reasonable that you, er, hold the view that, God, er, created all, umm, light on its way here about 6,000 ... years ... ago ... Nope, sorry I can't, that is f**king retarded, whats wrong with you! Call me smug, I don't care!"

jank · 19-03-2012 4:02am

Bannasidhe wrote: »

I think you have missed the point nozzferrahhtoo was making. My understanding of his post is that he thinks it is frustrating to even have to identify oneself as not being a thiest.

I would consider that it is akin to the general assumption that 'everyone' is heterosexual -the conversations can be quite similar:

'Are you married yourself?' 'No, the government won't let me'. ''

'Is your husband with you?'. 'No, my girlfriend is.' ''

'Is it just yourself and your...?' 'Girlfriend. Yes' ''

'Are you sure you're not pregnant?' 'Absolutely.' 'How can you be so sure? What contraceptive are you using?' 'Homosexuality.' ''

'Who is your next of kin?' 'My long-term monogamous same sex partner.' ''

'Religion?' 'No thanks' ''

'What are you giving up for Lent?' 'Religion' ''

'I've just called round to collect the Parish dues.' 'I'm not a Catholic' 'Oh...so you're Protestant?' 'No' 'Jewish?' 'No' 'ummmm...Muslim?' 'Nope - guess again.' ''

All of the above are actual 'conversations' I have had...:rolleyes:

In fairness, just because someone is asking a question doesnt mean they are judging you in a negative way. Many of them are ice breakers for converstation.

Zombrex · 19-03-2012 11:44am

jank wrote: »

In fairness, just because someone is asking a question doesnt mean they are judging you in a negative way. Many of them are ice breakers for converstation.

By the sounds of it many are just ticking a box on a forum. Never really got why people get annoyed at being asked "Religion?". Yes they could ask "Are you religious?" and then if you say "Yes" ask what religion. But from a practical point of view it is basically the same question. I've never in my life found that something to take offense at.

sonicthebadger* · 19-03-2012 12:00pm

Bannasidhe wrote: »

'Are you sure you're not pregnant?' 'Absolutely.' 'How can you be so sure? What contraceptive are you using?' 'Homosexuality.' ''

I lol'd. Brilliant. I must remember this one :pac:

MagicMarker · 20-03-2012 9:50am

I don't find anything frustrating about being an atheist, but then I've never come across in real life the kind of ignorance I see on the internet. Not that it doesn't exist of course, but just that the conversation never really goes in that direction.

jank · 20-03-2012 10:11am

MagicMarker wrote: »

I don't find anything frustrating about being an atheist, but then I've never come across in real life the kind of ignorance I see on the internet. Not that it doesn't exist of course, but just that the conversation never really goes in that direction.

I think this is true of all topics on the internet, from politics, football and of course religion. The of course can be said from people on the "other" side.

What's the most frustrating thing about being atheist?

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