What really happened Osama bin Laden

nullzero · 03-05-2011 2:18am

He is alive and well somewhere

Jeboa Safari wrote: »

From what I can see, its consistent for most skeptics to use common sense, look at the facts available and decide on the most logical story, which is usually the official one. Some of the CTers on here just seem to see the official story and decide it has to be wrong, and go looking for alternatives or some way to involve their target group, some somewhat plausible, some outlandish. That said there are some more balanced CTers.
I for one don't think Obama would risk the humiliation of being wrong and announcing he was dead unless he was certain, and the more news thats released, the more it seems to confirm the official story.

So you follow the highlighted as it were a creed unless of course a situation arises where it doesn't suit you?

There all all different types of CTers here, ones who make wild claims, others who are far more reserved etc...
Sceptics on this almost univerally forum demand proof at all times.
This story could use some proof to solidy itself and those who are usually champions of evidence and logic suddenly do an about turn when the situation suits their opinions.
Where is the consistency in that?

nullzero · 03-05-2011 2:21am

He is alive and well somewhere

gazmic1 wrote: »

"I mourn the loss of thousands of precious lives, but I will not rejoice in the death of one, not even an enemy." - Martin Luther King,

The celebration of the death of another human being in the streets of America saddened me if I'm honest.

Bin Ladens death is cold comfort to those bereft of family and friends through the 9-11 attacks.

Luxuriating in the death of anyone is wrong regardless of their crimes.
Why stoop to their level?

Jeboa Safari · 03-05-2011 2:24am

He died years ago

nullzero wrote: »

So you follow the highlighted as it were a creed unless of course a situation arises where it doesn't suit you?

There all all different types of CTers here, ones who make wild claims, others who are far more reserved etc...
Sceptics on this almost univerally forum demand proof at all times.
This story could use some proof to solidy itself and those who are usually champions of evidence and logic suddenly do an about turn when the situation suits their opinions.
Where is the consistency in that?

I look and decide what's more realistic. What do you think is the more realistic outcome?
And I agree some proof would be good, and I think they will release it eventually.

nullzero · 03-05-2011 2:40am

He is alive and well somewhere

Jeboa Safari wrote: »

I look and decide what's more realistic. What do you think is the more realistic outcome?
And I agree some proof would be good, and I think they will release it eventually.

It's realistic to not believe something that is dubious at best.

What is strange is the lack of consistency in demanding evidence for one thing and not the other.

03-05-2011 3:03am

In November 2001 after 9/11 the US knowing the whereabouts of Osama Bin Laden sent 100 troops into the rugged terrain of Tora Bora to capture him, he escaped on a mule.
It was too early to capture the bogeyman, the rest of the script would have been ruined and ended too soon for the neocon chickenhawks and the arms industry.
So they let him go in Dubai while #1 on the FBI's most wanted, then again after sept 11th.

And still no mention of any involvement in the 9/11 attacks on his updated most wanted page.

The report says an American unwillingness to commit more troops to hunt down Bin Laden and the excessive dependence on Afghan fighters led to the escape of the 9/11 mastermind.

Read more: http://www.ibtimes.com/articles/139864/20110430/bin-laden-osama-9-11-tora-bora-nato-operation-enduring-freedom-failed-capture-escape-troops-military.htm#ixzz1LFV0rJtq

CIA Commander In Tora Bora Admits US Allowed Osama Bin Laden To Escape Capture In November 2001
http://awood.blogspot.com/2005/08/cia-commander-in-tora-bora-admits-us.html

The vast array of American military power, from sniper
teams to the most mobile divisions of the Marine Corps and the
Army, was kept on the sidelines. Instead, the U.S. command chose
to rely on airstrikes and untrained Afghan militias to attack bin
Laden and on Pakistan’s loosely organized Frontier Corps to seal
his escape routes. On or around December 16, two days after writing
his will, bin Laden and an entourage of bodyguards walked
unmolested out of Tora Bora and disappeared into Pakistan’s unregulated
tribal area. Most analysts say he is still there today.
The decision not to deploy American forces to go after bin Laden
or block his escape was made by Secretary of Defense Donald
Rumsfeld and his top commander, Gen. Tommy Franks, the architects
of the unconventional Afghan battle plan known as Operation
Enduring Freedom. Rumsfeld said at the time that he was concerned
that too many U.S. troops in Afghanistan would create an

anti-American backlash and fuel a widespread insurgency.
http://foreign.senate.gov/imo/media/doc/Tora_Bora_Report.pdf

Senate Report Explores 2001 Escape by bin Laden From Afghan Mountains
The showdown at Tora Bora, a mountainous area dotted with caves in eastern Afghanistan, pitted a modest force of American Special Operations and C.I.A. officers, along with allied Afghan fighters, against a force of about 1,000 Qaeda fighters led by Mr. bin Laden.
The 2007 history said that it “has been determined with reasonable certainty” that Mr. bin Laden was at Tora Bora in December 2001, but that the fewer than 100 American troops committed to the area were not enough to block his escape
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/29/world/asia/29torabora.html

uncleoswald · 03-05-2011 8:35am

He died years ago

nullzero wrote: »

It's realistic to not believe something that is dubious at best.

What is strange is the lack of consistency in demanding evidence for one thing and not the other.

I do want evidence, evidence that they are lying. I'm sure photos will be released. Then what?

Wibbs wrote: »

and the ring and the incorrect translations and dropouts and him using the wrong hand?

Okay, how do you know its a gold ring? Also Bin Laden is seen wearing the ring in other videos who's authenticity are not subject to conspiracy, such as this one

Also, Bin Laden does quite a few things that are against Islamic teaching so a gold ring is hardly a biggy. About the wrong hand its not as clear as the sources you've probably been listening to would have you believe: http://www.911myths.com/html/bin_ladin_right_handed_.html

yekahS wrote: »

Yes, but most people who don't accept the official version sans evidence also believe he is dead, just wasn't killed last night.

Obviously neither of us know, or can know, what happened.

I believe he probably died a few years ago because;

-There were various different reports from various sources that he was seriously ill to gravely ill, and that AQ operatives had tried to secure a dialysis machine for him.

-He wouldn't have access to the care he would need in the Afghan/Pakistani border mountains.

-He hasn't made a video since 2001, a few recordings, but I wouldn't consider that to be proof of life.

You seem to be implying here that he died of natural causes. So wouldn't this be a great time for bin Ladens allies to release proof that he died many years ago of natural causes? Seems like an awful risk for the US to take... Almost like firing a missile at the Pentagon and pretending it was a plane and just hoping that no one would take a photo or video of the missile....

-He was found hiding in a compound with 14ft walls, security cameras, barbed wire, satellite dishes, in an area used by the Pakistani military and 2 miles from the Pakistani officer training school where there are regular military patrols and checkpoints, and no one copped he was there til now.

As far as I can tell they have been aware he was there for a long time but wanted to be sure. If he left they could have tracked him.

-He's had a 25 million dollar bounty on his head for 10 years and no one betrayed him. His mates have been having the **** waterboarded out of them in Gitmo, giving away terrorists plots and names and locations, but kept quiet about OBL.

But that is the horrible thing about Gitmo isn't it? An awful lot of the people been detained there know very little and isn't torture meant to be an ineffective way of getting info anyway?

-But most importantly, I haven't accepted the official version, at least yet, because they haven't released any evidence of it.

Why exactly are you accepting the official version without evidence?

At this moment in time it seems the most probable. Although I have doubts about the human shield story.

Its odd that the same people who like to paint the US as blood thirsty terrorists are using the fact that they haven't paraded the body around against them, its like they just can't win or something...

But of course they are going to threat this body above all others with Islamic respect because this is the one the world will be watching and videos of it's mistreatment would be shown by terrorist recruiters for decades. And before anyone pipes in, as happened earlier, with the video of Saddam's death been released please note that was not from the US.

phantom_lord · 03-05-2011 9:07am

My name is URL wrote: »

Buried at sea and no supporting photographic evidence? It's almost as if they wanted a wave of conspiracy theories to follow this news..

I imagine they care far more about not offending muslims than what a bunch of conspiracy theorists think.

jackiebaron · 03-05-2011 9:40am

Di0genes wrote: »

No they're not. They're exhaustively compiled, studied and respected.

I can show you instances were the findings of the NIST report into WTC are used by skyscraper architects and engineers to redesign buildings in the wake of its findings.

So no I reject your claim that they are "highly dubious"

Di0

The NIST have ZERO credibility. They might as well masquerade as the same gang of hacks as the Warren Commission or the fcukin Widgery Inquiry. Their scientists are bought and paid for shysters just like those clown scientists who are paid by energy firms to dispute climate change. Listen to this discussion to see just how discredited the NIST is:

[URL]rtsp://realod.talkpoint.com/thom001/13858/13858_300k.rm[/URL]

jackiebaron · 03-05-2011 9:57am

Hookah wrote: »

Because it should be enough that we all saw what happened, apparently.

No need to investigate.

Let me ask you a question.

A healthy young man in the street clutches his chest, falls over unconscious and dies. People quickly come along take away his corpse and dispose of it and come back and tell you "Ah, the poor fella had a heart attack." Meanwhile there's no history of pulmonory problems in his family. You're going to be happy with that glib and shabby explanation?

Strikes me that you're actually afraid to even contemplate investigating exactly why those buildings fell. The fear of nefarious subterfuge has you in lock-down mode.

jackiebaron · 03-05-2011 10:14am

Di0genes wrote: »

Steven Jones claims it was nano thermate. Its a non existent compound.

More

http://www.debunking911.com/jones.htm

(If you're just going to post youtube videos and not have the courtsey to explain yourself, I'll just point you to a website.

Jesus H Christ Di0,

Let's examine the first paragraph of that article you just referred to, shall we?

Here goes:

"Much has been made of Jones' new paper. Some have suggested that I correct the statement that not one paper has been published by conspiracy theoriests to date proving the collapse was a controlled demolition. To be clear, let me restate the test which makes a real scientific paper (????). It has to be published in a respected scientific journal. As an example, The Journal of Engineering Mechanics is a well respected scientific journal. The peer review proccess is tough and precise. The reviewers are well respected in their fields of expertise. The Journal of the American Chemical Society is another which Jones can submit his papers. There are many well respected journals which have an impact in (not upon?) the scientific community. Bentham, where Jones has submited his latest paper, is the Wiki of Journals. They have been critizied in the past for passing "gibberish". "

Now, the plethora of grammatical and spelling mistakes in the very first paragraph of this screed would embarrass a 12-year-old.
Please don't make a complete fool of yourself by sourcing such crap.

And incidentally the University of Missouri Engineering Department seems to be quite certain that nano-thermite exists:

http://engineering.missouri.edu/grg/2011/03/nanothermites/

BeanFlicker · 03-05-2011 10:22am

He is alive and well somewhere

My take on the events is that they are contrived and fabricated. I find it hard to believe the respect they showed with the burial unless not to create a greater backlash from supporters. The event was a very clean job and no concrete proof has been provided yet which is strange considering the wave of details realised when sadam was captured.

The whole story of 'coward' i.e. osama using his youngest wife as a shield builds up the american imagine that seems like a true-action hero film.

I believe the man is dead and good riddens, as why would the US government try something so risky but I'm inclined to think he died years ago.

Has any of his video footages post 2001 ever been proved that correlate with any events that can guaranteer his was alive?

In the words of Bill Hicks:

You are free to do what we tell you :cool:

jackiebaron · 03-05-2011 10:40am

Di0genes wrote: »

Please give me a example of the forensic investigation of all three.

In fact scratch that. Explain what you think a forensic investigation is, and then show me the forensic investigation that took place of these three or four examples you cite.

FFS man, is this what you do? You just send people off to produce reports to satisfy you and then you ignore them? WTF do you want people to do?

"Show me the forensic investigation"

Everyone FCUKING knows that forensic investigations are conducted following disasters such as plane crashes and structural failures. They spent months piecing together the PanAm Lockerbie remains. Exhaustive forensics tests were conducted on the Concorde liner that crashed in France to determine the cause of the fire that brought it down.

What the hell do you want me to do? Write to the inquiry panels and ask them for a transcript to send to you?

You bang on about it being unfeasible to conduct an investigation on 3 collapsed skyscrapers yet forensic investigations are conducted all the time when buildings are gutted by fire to determine the cause of the blaze. They can determine if arson was in play or electrical malfunction or combustibles.
What the hell is wrong with you that you need me to "show you the forensics investigation" ??

Monty Burnz · 03-05-2011 11:05am

He died years ago

nyarlothothep wrote: »

The Russians managed to conduct successful gas attacks on Islamic terrorists irc although it was a different situation, I know.

Beslan?

Monty Burnz · 03-05-2011 11:13am

He died years ago

Voodoo_rasher wrote: »

no that was the school. think you mean the Nord Ost Theatre

Thanks

forgot that one.

The Moscow theater hostage crisis, also known as the 2002 Nord-Ost siege, was the seizure of a crowded Moscow theater on 23 October 2002 by some 40 to 50 armed Chechens who claimed allegiance to the Islamist militant separatist movement in Chechnya.[1] They took 850 hostages and demanded the withdrawal of Russian forces from Chechnya and an end to the Second Chechen War. The siege was officially led by Movsar Barayev. After a two-and-a-half day siege, Russian Spetsnaz forces pumped an unknown chemical agent (thought to be fentanyl, or 3-methylfentanyl), into the building's ventilation system and raided it.[1]
39 of the attackers were killed by Russian forces, along with at least 129 and possibly many more of the hostages (including nine foreigners).

Classic Russian counter-terrorism. "We killed the hostage takers! (and most of the hostages)."

Monty Burnz · 03-05-2011 11:21am

He died years ago

By the way, just to deal with one 'suspicious' element of the story that seems to be causing some people to doubt it; where he was found. People seem to be astonished that he turned up more or less under the noses of the Pakistani authorities (whether a blind eye was turned is another matter of course). But remember where Radovan Karadzic turned up? A very, very wanted man in a country with a population little bigger than Ireland turned out to be hiding in a suburb of the capital, Belgrade - a city smaller than Dublin.

Of all the places in the world he could have been hiding, he was exactly where nobody expected him to be. I don't recall anyone claiming that there was a conspiracy going on there - it was just a clever tactic from Karadzic. Hiding exactly where you are not expected is a tactic that has been used before and it will be used again.

So was the place where they 'found' him evidence for the current CT about a fake raid? I would say it is not.

jackiebaron · 03-05-2011 11:27am

Di0genes wrote: »

Only exist in the movies.

And in safari parks to tag rhinos

jackiebaron · 03-05-2011 11:34am

Di0genes wrote: »

Yes they could have used James Bond's invisible car.

Why did you say that? Can't you respond rationally to a valid question without making adolescent comments like that?

jackiebaron · 03-05-2011 11:39am

Di0genes wrote: »

I will happily change my mind provided evidence is provided.

It's simply this.

If the US claimed he was dead and he was not, the embarrassment would be huge. They must be utterly and completely 100% assured.

If they thought they had killed him, but weren't 100% sure, they'd keep it quiet.

Can't you get this into your head?

Bin Laden is dead. The US KNOWS he's dead so there's no fear of embarrassment.

They know he died in 2001.

They just orchestrated this May 1st killing.

Di0genes · 03-05-2011 11:54am

He died years ago

yekahS wrote: »

Yes, but most people who don't accept the official version sans evidence also believe he is dead, just wasn't killed last night.

Obviously neither of us know, or can know, what happened.

I believe he probably died a few years ago because;

-There were various different reports from various sources that he was seriously ill to gravely ill, and that AQ operatives had tried to secure a dialysis machine for him.

Non verified. I don't think he needed dialysis.

-He wouldn't have access to the care he would need in the Afghan/Pakistani border mountains.

Irrelevant if he didn't need dialysis.

-He hasn't made a video since 2001, a few recordings, but I wouldn't consider that to be proof of life.

The recordings have quoted current affairs.

And why is a audio recording more suspicious than a video?

-He was found hiding in a compound with 14ft walls, security cameras, barbed wire, satellite dishes, in an area used by the Pakistani military and 2 miles from the Pakistani officer training school where there are regular military patrols and checkpoints, and no one copped he was there til now.

High security compounds are a feature of Pakistan.

-He's had a 25 million dollar bounty on his head for 10 years and no one betrayed him. His mates have been having the **** waterboarded out of them in Gitmo, giving away terrorists plots and names and locations, but kept quiet about OBL.

Or. They're fanatically loyal. These guys fly planes into buildings at his command.

-But most importantly, I haven't accepted the official version, at least yet, because they haven't released any evidence of it.

Wait for the evidence.

Why exactly are you accepting the official version without evidence?

Because I'm hard pressed to see the flaws in your contrary position.

Monty Burnz · 03-05-2011 11:56am

He died years ago

yekahS wrote: »

-There were various different reports from various sources that he was seriously ill to gravely ill, and that AQ operatives had tried to secure a dialysis machine for him.

-He wouldn't have access to the care he would need in the Afghan/Pakistani border mountains.

These sound like very good reasons why he would not be living in the mountains at all, and would be likely to be found closer to civilisation, doctors etc.

jackiebaron · 03-05-2011 12:57pm

Even Reagan's Assistant Treasury Secretary, Paul Craig Roberts doesn't believe this Bin Laden bullsh!t:

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article28009.htm

Jonny7 · 03-05-2011 1:00pm

He died years ago

jackiebaron wrote: »

Those of us who don't believe these claims that Bin Laden was killed over the weekend are of the belief that he was in fact killed years ago. Way back in 2001 and the US kept him "alive" because he served them so well in scaring the sh!t out of the American sheeple. They'd re-release doctored and touched up videos to keep the "War on Terra" at the forefront of peoples' minds. He was the ideal bogeyman who has now outlived his purpose so they just announced now that he's been killed even though he's been dead for a decade.

So let me get this straight

You believe he's dead around 2001 based on the weak rumours and speculation at the time

Yet at the moment, with a much more rock solid case and apparently photos to be released on later today you don't believe it

Brain.. no ... understand...

Jonny7 · 03-05-2011 1:14pm

He died years ago

jackiebaron wrote: »

Even Reagan's Assistant Treasury Secretary, Paul Craig Roberts doesn't believe this Bin Laden bullsh!t:

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article28009.htm

I heard he had close ties with the op, Ron Jacobs, who is the current CIA black sheep was shushed up fairly quick, but this guy ain't gonna lie down - ahh they'll just get to him, you'll see, Brennan has this whole thing sewn up.

Cool, I can play this game too!

I'm off to google some more random ex-official dinosaurs opinions on the matter to lend heavy credibility to this new born conspiracy theory

Remember, nothing is true, everything is a lie, everything is a conspiracy, except for that time they killed Uday and Qusay Hussein, because like, there were photos of that (probably doctored anyway).. but apart from that! those bastards, pulling the wools over our eyes, well we aren't the sheeple.. we are the conspiracy theorists forum and we'll get to the bottom of this no matter how much googling we have to do! we'll select some random facts, coincidences, rumours, speculation and maybe some made-up bits and form a ROCK solid case on this!

Hookah · 03-05-2011 1:18pm

He is alive and well somewhere

Jonny7 wrote: »

we are the conspiracy theorists forum

Pretty much.

fee fi fo fum · 03-05-2011 1:19pm

jackiebaron wrote: »

Can't you get this into your head?

Bin Laden is dead. The US KNOWS he's dead so there's no fear of embarrassment.

They know he died in 2001.

They just orchestrated this May 1st killing.

I was sceptical about this story, i would still doubt the accuracy of the official run down of events , but this here is just embarrassing , and not that i haven't read up on all this myself and given it some thought because i have , but you're stating these as if they are facts.

Cringe.

TrustNoOne · 03-05-2011 1:21pm

He is alive and well somewhere

I want to know why there was no question before the raid in trying to capture him alive? They said he was using a human shield...Now, I find it very difficult to believe that he was firing his AK while holding your one in front of him like something straight out of Hollywood...The fact that every effort wasn't taken to capture him makes me wonder if perhaps the Yanks were afraid of what he might reveal about his role in 9/11, if he had any at all.

The whole thing smells like bullsh*t and anyone who thinks people should just accept what the Americans say at face value need to get in touch with reality. History is full of atrocities committed by regimes whose people accepted what they were told without question.

Jeboa Safari · 03-05-2011 1:25pm

He died years ago

TrustNoOne wrote: »

I want to know why there was no question before the raid in trying to capture him alive? They said he was using a human shield...Now, I find it very difficult to believe that he was firing his AK while holding your one in front of him like something straight out of Hollywood...The fact that every effort wasn't taken to capture him makes me wonder if perhaps the Yanks were afraid of what he might reveal about his role in 9/11, if he had any at all.

The whole thing smells like bullsh*t and anyone who thinks people should just accept what the Americans say at face value need to get in touch with reality. History is full of atrocities committed by regimes whose people accepted what they were told without question.

What exactly could he reveal that he couldn't have done over the last 10 years?

TrustNoOne · 03-05-2011 1:27pm

He is alive and well somewhere

Jonny7 wrote: »

I heard he had close ties with the op, Ron Jacobs, who is the current CIA black sheep was shushed up fairly quick, but this guy ain't gonna lie down - ahh they'll just get to him, you'll see, Brennan has this whole thing sewn up.

Cool, I can play this game too!

I'm off to google some more random ex-official dinosaurs opinions on the matter to lend heavy credibility to this new born conspiracy theory

Remember, nothing is true, everything is a lie, everything is a conspiracy, except for that time they killed Uday and Qusay Hussein, because like, there were photos of that (probably doctored anyway).. but apart from that! those bastards, pulling the wools over our eyes, well we aren't the sheeple.. we are the conspiracy theorists forum and we'll get to the bottom of this no matter how much googling we have to do! we'll select some random facts, coincidences, rumours, speculation and maybe some made-up bits and form a ROCK solid case on this!

Actually, there are no conspiracies, everything we are told IS the truth. We should accept everything our governments tell us without question, and maybe even a patriotic salute. And anytime someone says anything to the contrary...Simply close your eyes, fingers in your ears and sing "LALAALALAALALA" until they go away.

BlastedGlute · 03-05-2011 1:28pm

He is alive and well somewhere

Sweet Jesus your a jack ass. Even Jon Stewart knows OBL needed Dialisis, he was in a hospital pre 9/11 receiving treatment for it, although it's not known if he ever received a transplant.

Also a guy who owns the house next to the apparent kill site said that there was a singular apache over the compound but that nothing was happening. Then some moments later there was a loud bang or explosion and before long the Pakistan army was there. Why would navy seals have an apache chopper so close to raid? If OBL has been there for 3 years like some sources have said, hownis it that the people next doornneverbsaw anything to verify this. This interview was an al jazeer or however you spell it. I think it's ok to apply some reasonable doubt to the credibility of the official story as its so far fetched. Jesus like not even Hitler was tracked down but we all believed that for over 50 years!

Ludo · 03-05-2011 1:32pm

He is alive and well somewhere

Personally, my gut feeling on this is that he is actually still alive and now in US custody and they will be working him for every bit of information he has. When they are done with him they can just give him a (deserved) bullet to the head and no-one will be any the wiser. This gives them the best of both worlds.

I don't see any benefit in taking him alive and conducting some sort of show trial. That would just stoke up anger and create a huge security headache.

Saying he is dead and they buried him at sea is convenient and the obvious thing to do to cover this up (or maybe they could have said they buried him but never reveal where).

I have absolutely no proof of this obviously or any reason for even thinking it...I just suspect this may be the case.
Then again maybe they did kill him in the raid after all and what they say is true....I don't care either way to be honest.

What really happened Osama bin Laden

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