Which Loco is your favourite?

Jonathan · 08-11-2010 9:18pm

newmug wrote: »

You would imagine HEP would be the best way to go, its more direct and it saves x amount of horsepower actually having to pull the generator van!

Generally it is. The problem is that Irish trains use 50Hz AC. The motor must then spin at 50Hz. This isn't an issue in other places because DC is used.

CIE · 08-11-2010 9:30pm

corktina wrote: »

sorry,you are totally wrong .
Steam was much slower than the diesels that replaced it. In express steams dieing months, Bulleid Pacifics were pushed to high speeds for the sheer hell of it,the (o)ccasional one reached 100, but it wasnt anywhere near a daily occurence. GWR express locos were designed to be at their most efficent at 60mph and speeds over 80 were exceptional. timetabled 100 mph running didnt appear until the class 55 Deltics were in service.

And your proof is...? Not to mention, how do you measure "timetabled 100-mph running" when the average speed is the benchmark for timetables and not the top speed?

Go look at the power curves of steam engines versus diesel engines one day. Diesel engine power curves fall steeply the faster you go; that of the steamer is flat. You'll never again claim that diesels are "much faster" than steam. Heat efficiency is another matter, but that's unrelated to speed capability. There would also be other safety concerns inherent with steam engines that would have railways not run them at their full capability (e.g. diesels don't have huge boilers that can explode if you have a careless fireman that lets the water get too low).

corktina · 08-11-2010 9:46pm

timetabled to run at 100mph...there isnt another way to say it.... timings for diesels are worked out on their max speed and the line speed and they are expected to maintain that speed to keep time point to point, hence Deltics were timetabled to run for long stretches at their max 100mph rating just as HSTs are timetabled to run at 125mph.

As for steam service speeds, i suggest a few books by the likes of Nock would put you straight. 100mph running with a steam loco was more or less governed by the ability of the Fireman to keep pace and was rare in the extreme and not ever timetabled nor was anything like it.

08-11-2010 10:13pm

Jonathan wrote: »

Generally it is. The problem is that Irish trains use 50Hz AC. The motor must then spin at 50Hz.

Correct, if the engine speed varies then so would the field rate, so it wouldn't be 50Hz anymore. UK stock runs on 1000V DC while ours run at 380V 3-phase AC.

CIE · 08-11-2010 10:37pm

corktina wrote: »

timetabled to run at 100mph...there isnt another way to say it...timings for diesels are worked out on their max speed and the line speed and they are expected to maintain that speed to keep time point to point, hence Deltics were timetabled to run for long stretches at their max 100mph rating just as HSTs are timetabled to run at 125mph

No, that's not the limiting factor. Acceleration is one of the largest factors, as is number of stops; that governs average speed. One thing that diesels can indeed do is out-accelerate any steam engine from a stop (especially those with large-diameter driving wheels); they can also accelerate better up a grade (compare twelve driving wheels on the Deltic with six on the A1-A4 Pacifics). In spite of that, the Deltics could only shave an hour off the journey of a train such as the Flying Scotsman, upping the average speed to about 62 mph from the previous 55 mph. They needed electrification and 125-mph top speeds (whatever happened to the 140-mph top speed?) in order to achieve today's 98-100 mph average speed.

As for steam service speeds, i suggest a few books by the likes of Nock would put you straight. 100mph running with a steam loco was more or less governed by the ability of the Fireman to keep pace and was rare in the extreme and not ever timetabled nor was anything like it.

Oswald Nock is a fine author, but it sounds like you're cherry-picking information out of his works. And since you're comparing long-distance intercity diesel and steam, then very many Pacifics could not only keep pace with the diesels but outperform them, especially at the "high end". The A4 class was designed for sustained 100-mph running to boot. Not to mention, for the InterCity 125 to achieve what it can achieve always requires two engines; not at any time have they switched the configuration to a single engine plus driving trailer on the other end.

The limiting factors with steamers are steam-producing capability (the fireman is not the weak link in the chain; that's governed by boiler size and firebox grate area, something that British loading gauges do put limits on) and driving wheel diameter. After that, you have fuel and water capacity, and the need to service a steamer after a certain number of miles running (a number of moving parts could not be self-lubricated while running even with modernisation), all drags on the average speed, which is why I emphasise that instead of top speed.

BTW, the Deltics were an exceptional class, as are the Class 43. That puts them in the same kind of frame of reference as the high-speed express steamers.

Judgement Day · 08-11-2010 11:02pm

Ah lads - please get a trainspotters forum organised - I came in here to escape the bickering in the Rugby forum and it's even more mind crushing in here.

steamengine · 08-11-2010 11:11pm

Judgement Day wrote: »

Ah lads - please get a trainspotters forum organised - I came in here to escape the bickering in the Rugby forum and it's even more mind crushing in here.

Ah come on JD - you're the biggest train spotter of us all, how about another Mr. Porter video - please !!!

steamengine · 08-11-2010 11:43pm

CIE wrote: »

No, that's not the limiting factor. Acceleration is one of the largest factors, as is number of stops; that governs average speed. One thing that diesels can indeed do is out-accelerate any steam engine from a stop (especially those with large-diameter driving wheels); they can also accelerate better up a grade (compare twelve driving wheels on the Deltic with six on the A1-A4 Pacifics). In spite of that, the Deltics could only shave an hour off the journey of a train such as the Flying Scotsman, upping the average speed to about 62 mph from the previous 55 mph. They needed electrification and 125-mph top speeds (whatever happened to the 140-mph top speed?) in order to achieve today's 98-100 mph average speed.Oswald Nock is a fine author, but it sounds like you're cherry-picking information out of his works. And since you're comparing long-distance intercity diesel and steam, then very many Pacifics could not only keep pace with the diesels but outperform them, especially at the "high end". The A4 class was designed for sustained 100-mph running to boot. Not to mention, for the InterCity 125 to achieve what it can achieve always requires two engines; not at any time have they switched the configuration to a single engine plus driving trailer on the other end.

The limiting factors with steamers are steam-producing capability (the fireman is not the weak link in the chain; that's governed by boiler size and firebox grate area, something that British loading gauges do put limits on) and driving wheel diameter. After that, you have fuel and water capacity, and the need to service a steamer after a certain number of miles running (a number of moving parts could not be self-lubricated while running even with modernisation), all drags on the average speed, which is why I emphasise that instead of top speed.

BTW, the Deltics were an exceptional class, as are the Class 43. That puts them in the same kind of frame of reference as the high-speed express steamers.

The demise of steam was largely due to economics, more than anything else, but steam locomotive speeds were reckoned to be ring-fenced at 125 mph max anyway due to fluctuating axle loads affecting the track - termed 'hammer blow', caused by the high reciprocating mass of the running gear - connecting rods, piston rods etc. The LMS 'Coronations' estimated HP of 3,300 coincidentally matches that of the 'Deltics' so power wasn't the issue.

It is also interesting to note, that our 'Enterprise' journey time since inception 60 years ago, has not been altered appreciably by the switchover to diesel either. However Diesels are way more fuel efficient and way less high maintenance than manually coal fired open cycle steam engines. I remember donkey's years ago 'singing the praises' of steam engines to some of the Connolly (Amiens St) shed crew - the reply was 'if you had to 'effin' work on them you wouldn't think that'.

08-11-2010 11:48pm

Yes it was primarily the shortage of coal after "The Emergency" that prompted Ireland's early diesel adoption.

corktina · 09-11-2010 3:28am

CIE wrote: »

No, that's not the limiting factor. Acceleration is one of the largest factors, as is number of stops; that governs average speed. One thing that diesels can indeed do is out-accelerate any steam engine from a stop (especially those with large-diameter driving wheels); they can also accelerate better up a grade (compare twelve driving wheels on the Deltic with six on the A1-A4 Pacifics). In spite of that, the Deltics could only shave an hour off the journey of a train such as the Flying Scotsman, upping the average speed to about 62 mph from the previous 55 mph. They needed electrification and 125-mph top speeds (whatever happened to the 140-mph top speed?) in order to achieve today's 98-100 mph average speed.Oswald Nock is a fine author, but it sounds like you're cherry-picking information out of his works. And since you're comparing long-distance intercity diesel and steam, then very many Pacifics could not only keep pace with the diesels but outperform them, especially at the "high end". The A4 class was designed for sustained 100-mph running to boot. Not to mention, for the InterCity 125 to achieve what it can achieve always requires two engines; not at any time have they switched the configuration to a single engine plus driving trailer on the other end.

The limiting factors with steamers are steam-producing capability (the fireman is not the weak link in the chain; that's governed by boiler size and firebox grate area, something that British loading gauges do put limits on) and driving wheel diameter. After that, you have fuel and water capacity, and the need to service a steamer after a certain number of miles running (a number of moving parts could not be self-lubricated while running even with modernisation), all drags on the average speed, which is why I emphasise that instead of top speed.

BTW, the Deltics were an exceptional class, as are the Class 43. That puts them in the same kind of frame of reference as the high-speed express steamers.

you are dreamimg if you think even the finest steam loco was anywhere near the performance of a Deltic! A romantic if ever there was one!

Cookie_Monster · 09-11-2010 9:33am

the deltic wasn't that great, only lasted 6 years. the follow up to them the Cl55 lasted from 61 to 81.

compare that to the humble class 20, built from 57 and still in service today

corktina · 09-11-2010 10:05am

try doing 100mph with one with 14 on....:D

Losty Dublin · 09-11-2010 11:42am

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

the deltic wasn't that great, only lasted 6 years. the follow up to them the Cl55 lasted from 61 to 81.

compare that to the humble class 20, built from 57 and still in service today

I'll go one further and I'm be Jesus in the Temple here...

The Deltic's were crap as engines go!!!!:D:D:D

Back to the steam debate, the principle of steam locomotives dictate that you can potentially go as fast as you can to get performance out of the engine before Physics says no more and does it's bit to scupper everything. The quicker you can get the boiler to steam, the faster a fireman can get good coal into the furnace, the higher a pressure the cylinders can cope with and the axle weight of the train itself all come into play. Mallard as mentioned famously broke the speed record but ended up being broke herself as she wasn't fit for the speeds they tweaked out of her. The GNRI Q class locos were reckoned by drivers to have hit 100MPH coming downhill from the borders on the right day but the V were a better climber and a faster loco with less effort; however a single 141 was more reliable and cheaper to get as much and more from on the job.

corktina · 09-11-2010 12:04pm

yeah id agree with most of that one...always preferred the Westerns anyway (at least they didnt need new engines every 5 minutes...

dowlingm · 09-11-2010 2:39pm

newmug wrote: »

You would imagine HEP would be the best way to go, its more direct and it saves x amount of horsepower actually having to pull the generator van!

The VIA F40 rebuilds don't use vans - they mount the HEP engine on the loco itself. The result is an odd looking projection at the back end.

dowlingm · 09-11-2010 3:07pm

CIE wrote: »

any rebuilds would either need a higher-horsepower engine (there are newer 16-cylinder engines that can put out over 4,000 horses, but those are usually four-stroke due to emissions requirements, and EMD under Caterpillar's ownership has not developed one yet) or the secondary diesel engine.

CIE - bit unfair to blame Caterpillar/Progress for no new 4-stroke - after all they only took over in June

For the time being it looks like they are pressing on with improvements to the 710G3 which will apparently manage Tier 3 (and I'd say GO Transit who use them on MPI MP40s really hope EMD will find a way to make them Tier 4!)

Karsini - you can get "new" 645Fs - just not built by EMD. Metra bought a bunch with their MP36 order mentioned above.

corktina · 10-11-2010 9:35pm

CIE wrote: »

And your proof is...? Not to mention, how do you measure "timetabled 100-mph running" when the average speed is the benchmark for timetables and not the top speed?

Go look at the power curves of steam engines versus diesel engines one day. Diesel engine power curves fall steeply the faster you go; that of the steamer is flat. You'll never again claim that diesels are "much faster" than steam. Heat efficiency is another matter, but that's unrelated to speed capability. There would also be other safety concerns inherent with steam engines that would have railways not run them at their full capability (e.g. diesels don't have huge boilers that can explode if you have a careless fireman that lets the water get too low).

heres some info for you
"On 6th June 1932, no.5006 "Tregenna Castle", driver Ruddock and fireman Thorp made the fastest official run, covering the 77.25 miles at an average of 81.7mph, in 56 minutes and 47 seconds, with a top speed of 91.4mph."

This is a special run of the Cheltenham Flyer , then the "worlds fastest train" between Swindon and Paddington on probably Britains finest line for high speed running. Nowhere near the Ton....

10-11-2010 11:40pm

dowlingm wrote: »

Karsini - you can get "new" 645Fs - just not built by EMD. Metra bought a bunch with their MP36 order mentioned above.

Rebuild your competitor's products and sell 'em on? That's mad! :eek:

Losty Dublin · 11-11-2010 12:01am

Karsini wrote: »

Rebuild your competitor's products and sell 'em on? That's mad! :eek:

If you can't beat them...:D

steamengine · 21-04-2011 8:37pm

Managed to get a shot of this '201' on the camera phone as it swept through Harmonstown around 11:10 am, today. Quite impressive as it was moving at a fair pace. I see from wiki that the 201 engines are rated at 3,200 hp - powerful indeed and they sound it.

picture.php?albumid=1408&pictureid=9313

newmug · 22-04-2011 12:34am

What happened to the colour? Where's the big orange thumpers gone? Surely there's a few left in orange!!!

foggy_lad · 22-04-2011 12:38am

Saw this dirty old banger parked up in Carlow a few weeks ago:)

corktina · 22-04-2011 3:13am

newmug wrote: »

What happened to the colour? Where's the big orange thumpers gone? Surely there's a few left in orange!!!

its an NIR example judging by the 8 on the front of the number. (Thx for the picture....

Cookie_Monster · 22-04-2011 8:44am

corktina wrote: »

its an NIR example judging by the 8 on the front of the number. (Thx for the picture....

yep,

the New Enterprise livery
also come in silver and green
and orange
I imagine most of those stored are still in orange guise

newmug · 22-04-2011 9:17am

Does anyone know if there's a preserved example of all those loco's on the poll? If there are, where are they? Can a layperson get to see them?

topnotch · 22-04-2011 10:05am

Downpatrick to see a 141 and A class run over a short stretch of track.

Hells kitchen bar to see an A class inside the bar having a pint.

Dromod if you want to see the cab of a 121.

Moynasta if you want to see some locos covered in tarpaulin.

The 201's still run cork-dublin and enterprise as well as freight below.

And the 071's run the occasional diesel railtour as well as timber and liners from ballina to waterford running round at kildare and dublin ballina liner traffic as well as tara mines from navan to alexandra road.

The RPSI have two 141 class loco's preserved.

Cookie_Monster · 22-04-2011 10:21am

topnotch wrote: »

The RPSI have two 141 class loco's preserved.

One was parked up in Inchicore recently, saw a photo somewhere, may be still there for viewing. the other's up North at Whitehead iirc.

There is also a B101 and G class under heavy duty protective covers in carrick on suir (ITG workshop)

Moyasta has:
141
181
121
201(C)

as far as I can remember. All hidden under tarps and muck

trad · 22-04-2011 10:48am

Interesting thread. As an apprentice in Inchicore I worked on all the locos on the poll except for the 201 class.

The A and C classes were horrible to work on with the GM engine shoehorned into the engine bay. The GM's were much better with loads of access. I was there when the 071's were delivered and lay unused for over a year until the drivers agreed to drive them. They were terrible to start even them, you could spend 2 or 3 days just trying to get one engine started and they absolutly ate batteries and starters before even covering a mile.

My Dad was a driver and he was very fond of the old diesel railcars before they became push pulls. i have many fond memories of time on the "footplate".

I see no one has mentioned they Maybachs (D and E class). Probably not the best loco in the world but at least we had a go at building them.

Judgement Day · 22-04-2011 11:17am

E428 (below), on Pathfinder's "Balligo Divider" railtour in 1988. These days it is returning to nature at Dunsandle.

A report on E428's adventurers on "the mainline" from Connaught Ranger on IRN here:

http://irnirishrailwaynews.yuku.com/topic/655

It is a pity you did not experience the heroic achievements of E428 on the mainline during 1986 to 1993 such as,

-it being the first ever preserved diesel locomotive to haul a passenger train on the mainline in either Britain or Ireland in 1986.

-hauling 6 coaches on the climb up out of Westport as the rain poured down in 1987.

-fully opened up while snatching through Balla in Co Mayo while hauling 5 cravens and 3189 enroute to Ballina in 1988 on the Pathfinder, Balligo Divider railtour.

-the Quiet Man specials for 13 saturdays in summer 1989 between Tuam & Athenry.

-the visit to Limerick in 1991 and the attempt by Limerick loco depot to hire the E class as station pilot due to the cronic loco shortages on the mainline at the time.

- My favourite E428 experience and is with out doubt one of my all time railway experiences is my final cabride on 428 from Galway to Tuam in October 1992. An early afternoon shunt by 428 assembled the Westrail stock consisting of 90,1934,1633,1468 on road two under the canopy in Ceannt Station. E428 sat there ticking over along with 90 in steam until the evening departure to Tuam.
076 and Mark11a stock arrived on the Heuston service and it had just stopped at platform 1 when we were given the road for departure. 428 exploded with almighty black exhaust as she cleaned her insides after sitting idle for a number of hours. Some sight to behold looking out from the cab over the bonnet, snatching as we passed the cabin and the E opened up over Lough Atalia coming across the points onto the mainline as we hit for Tuam. It was a fast run to Athenry before being conducted over the Tuam line by a per-way inspector. Once over the northern junction in Athenry hitting for the Tuam we were off the beaten track and the route ahead belonged to us. A great roar up the various embankments and through Ballyglunin was quite impressive. It was pretty dark when we arrived outside the cabin in Tuam later that evening and the Irish Rail crew stood down at the gates of the WR depot. 90 was despatched to the shed to have her fire dropped while us on 428 followed later after some minor shunting of the stocking stock.

Interesting to note that E428 has not operated on the mainline since 1993 but has still clocked the most mileage than any other diesel during preservation on the mainline in Ireland. A record that is approaching 15 years!

At least the purr and the growl of an E class is still to be enjoyed at Downpatrick.

22-04-2011 3:28pm

trad wrote: »

I was there when the 071's were delivered and lay unused for over a year until the drivers agreed to drive them. They were terrible to start even them, you could spend 2 or 3 days just trying to get one engine started and they absolutly ate batteries and starters before even covering a mile.

This is indeed correct. In some locations, Tralee for sure, they actually had an external power connection to help start them. I know the batteries were uprated at one stage too.

newmug wrote: »

What happened to the colour? Where's the big orange thumpers gone? Surely there's a few left in orange!!!

All of the "stored" (more like withdrawn) 201s are in orange with a yellow front, these are 201-205 and 210-214.

The only remaining orange 071s are 077, 078, 084 and 087. 078 hasn't been seen out on the mainline for about 6 months now, apparently it's in Inchicore for overhaul but it's been there a very long time.

Which Loco is your favourite?

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