RTE Announce FTA Saorsat service

lucernarian · 08-01-2011 11:45pm

And a link to the Conspiracy Theories forum in case anyone didn't know where that post came from.

Semper Fidelis has still yet to explain why RTÉ have said they will broadcast from 9 degrees east FTA while also dealing with a net cut in their funding. Clearly RTÉ must have some pot of gold we don't know about if they are going to pay the hollywood execs all that extra dosh.

Just like how the BBC must have some miraculous source of funding for using a satellite which covers most of France and the Benelux countries despite them being forbidden from using license fee money to broadcast in foreign countries... It does kinda suggest that there is no extra cost to the BBC in having Freesat reception over much of Western Europe on a <1 metre sat dish.

Of course, we will never truly learn why the contributions of this poster on this thread are so conspiratorial while he/she puts up straw man arguments and other excuses for a genuine rebuttal.

Tony · 09-01-2011 12:15am

STB wrote: »

Thanks Tony

Can you format them into paragraphs as well and remove all the negativity and misinformed notions and guesswork.

Sure thing

semper fidelis wrote: »

watty · 09-01-2011 12:23am

I have KU 28E and KU 9E on same dish, both near 100% quality. (The 9E ku isn't even intended for Ireland).

Picture of 28E, 19E, 13E & 9E feeding 16 outlet distribution system at bottom of page here http://www.saortv.info/satellite-saorsat/saorsat-reception/

Standard Triax dish, standard Triax bracket. In May 2011 I will swap the 9E Ku LNBF for a Ka.

But for people with satellite already a second boxed 45cm cassegrain dish should work for 9E. The larger dishes mentioned elsewhere are for VSAT, Two way Internet, not TV only.

Anyone that knows anything about satellite reading this http://www.techtir.ie/saortv/saorsat-coverage will see it's not just theory and explains why RTE are happy to be FTA (Free To Air) on Ka-Sat. As yet no other platform exists for Ireland that does this.

Anyway ... We will know a lot in a years time when there is some experience of reception.

I'd like to see a consumer Ka-Band LNBF rather than only flanged Ka-Band LNBs for VSAT ODU.

watty · 09-01-2011 12:34am

STB wrote: »

Avanti = Hylas 1 aimed at Europe via 8 regional spot beams. Hylas 1 will be used primarily for providing a broadband solution for rural parts of UK and has only launched. Hylas 2 will have more bandwidth, will not be launched until 2012 and is aimed at the Middle east and Africa. Neither offer the spot beam capability that RTENL have identified as the required geographical and timing solution.

Traditional ka-band sized spots. The same signal received from Galway to Amsterdam. Smaller than Astra 2D though because frequency is higher.

STB wrote: »

Eutelsat = Kasat which WILL be used by RTENL for spot beam coverage in Ireland.

As you have been told previously, it is a solution to Irish coverage to rural/hard to reach areas terrestrially. Any overspill will be similar to terrestrial overspill currently experienced. DX hounds with Nasa size dishes and specialist gear do not count as viewing public.

Traditional ka-band sized spots, but overlaping. The same signal can't be received from Galway to Amsterdam due to frequency/Polarisation reuse. Even a 4m dish won't work half way between two matching spots as the spots come from the same place.

I may have the dish size contours in the wrong place in this image. French/Calais and Irish Spot are same frequencies and polarity. This is extended across the 80 spots so that the satellite has x20 capacity of a traditional single spot with twice the frequency spectrum and bnoth polarities. Frequency/Polarisation reuse.

Dish size used or needed does not affect the degree of Interference
Between French and Irish Signals versus location.

I don't know how far inland exactly from Welsh coast you can receive Irish Spot. That will NOT depend on having a monster dish. It's the point at which the received French/Calais spot FROM EXACTLY the same oribital position (so bigger dish makes BOTH signals bigger), causes too much interference. Re-read http://www.techtir.ie/saortv/saorsat-coverage

I'm happy to delete or retract or correct anything wrong on that page. Azimuth is about 160 degrees and elevation about 29 degrees for 9E in Ireland, so spots much be elongated on the line along the 160 degree Azimuth. I may not have done this enough.

watty · 09-01-2011 3:15pm

semper fidelis wrote: »

Initially I criticised this forum for allowing people to blatantly push commercial products and I questioned what the moderators were doing about it. I now see that on another part of this forum a mob from Spain, no less, are blatantly pushing KA Sat and TwoWay without any interference from the mod. If this is the norm here in Ireland then I owe Watty an apology for also pushing Eutelsat (good luck to him if he can get away with it as he has obviously found that he can). What I don't understand is why are'nt the Avanti guys pushing their product or are they English gentlemen who do not consider it to be "cricket".

That spanish guys earlier post was deleted in other Forum and has been reported here. It's spam selling Tooway.

I'm not pushing Eutelsat for Saorsat @ 9E, any more than I push Astra/Eutelsat for Freesat. Both are Free To Air Satellite alternatives to UPC/Sky PayTV. These are TV forums.

I admit I promote FTA TV. Because payTV is at near 80% in Ireland and "normal" payTV saturation is closer to 55% or less. Why is it so high? Lots of historical reasons. Today it's due to lack of Consumer awareness of alternatives.

Most FTA Irish TV will be via Aerial. Saorsat is intended for only 2% to 7%. I suspect that eventually over 10% maybe as high as 20% will use Saorsat if Sky loses market share to Freesat in Ireland. The highest viewed pay TV on Sky is Sky 1 at about only 2% of viewing time. Only about 50% or less of Sky Subscribers want/get Sky Sports. All Sky Sports together is slightly less than 2% of viewing time.

Saorview (DTT) is deliberately meant to cover as much of N.I. as possible as Analogue (Truskmore, Holyhill, Carn Hill and Clermont Cairn main stations and Moville, Monaghan etc relays) has for over 30 years for UHF. There is even a proposal for RTE to rent a "lite" Mux on 2 UK transmitters IN N.I. to transmit RTE1, RTE2 and TG3. The fact that all of N.I. will get Saorsat is thus a bonus to RTE NL.

Most FTA UK TV is/will be satellite using a mix of out of subscription Sky Boxes (no recording), Generic FTA boxes, TVs with built in satellite tuner, Freesat branded boxes and PC tuner card. There may be a slight increase in Freeview/Freeview HD reception in Ireland after 2012 ASO in N.I. The Welsh, and IOM "overspill" is a minority sport needing separate larger chimney aerials. Maybe about 10% of UK TV reception in Ireland will use Freeview rather than Freesat for UK TV

Sam Russell · 09-01-2011 3:36pm

I thought that Simper Eternalis had given up.:mad:

What are his claimed expertise in satellites, he has not told us. He claims a lot of practical expertise, but no theoretical expertise. I presume he did dish installations for his American employer, Uncle Sam.

Why do we bother with this tripe. He is just insulting us in his posts, displaying his own ignorance for all to see. It is embarassing to watch, and to read.

semper fidelis · 09-01-2011 3:47pm

Circle the wagons again - the leper is loose !

I can't understand Tony the satellite salesman. In my previous post he put in a snide remark about the size of font that I used. Now that I have used a smaller font for his benefit he is still not happy.Tch.Tch.

To the guy who thinks that the suggestion of combining 9E with 28.5 is totally ridiculous - hooray ! That is exactly what I have been saying. It is also what Watty et. al. have been saying. This is a 66 page thread sonny boy - go and look back over the discussions.

Obviously anybody who disagrees with any of the founding fathers is slotted into the "conspiratorial theory " bracket. For the benefit of those wannabee Sir Lancelots who either cannot read or chose to take their own interpretation from what they do read - these are the points that I tried to make.

1. Pushing one's own commercial agenda would not be allowed on Forums in The States - the moderators would intervene.
2. It was my opinion that Watty along with Tony( who to be fair declared his interest ) and also the installation federation guy were pushing their own commercial agendas.
3. This has been reinforced by the Spanish agents for KA Sat/TwoWay coming on stream with their commercial offering without any mod. interference (For the record and before any White Knight jumps in to protect the chastity of the moderators I don't have any axe to grind with the mods. If the rules of the forum allow such things then fair enough they are merely applying the rules.)
4. I particularly took Watty to task on the basis that his theories were mostly rubbish. The basis for this assessment was that I have worked with this equipment and know what it can and cannot do. Watty is theorising.
5.It is quite obvious to me that Watty is technically competent in the area of broadbcasting so why is he going to such lengths to push something which is blatantly wrong ?
6. In answering my statements Watty keeps including links to previous postings of his either on this forum or on others but these postings have no validity in this argument as they propound the same theories all over again.
7. Debate is healthy but I would suggest that instead of attacking me personally or my genre or the size of font that I use or where I earned my living (not by choice ) that people should look at the points that I have made and in a clear lucid and rational assessment tell me where I am wrong and the reasons why.
8. In an effort to be conciliatory in my last post I conceded that the possibility exists that Watty could be 50% right and I could be 50% wrong (I don't really believe this but it induces debate ) and in such a situation a worst case scenario would be that coverage would extend to 30% of Britain. Other than some wit (perhaps I should use the 50% rule here as well) talking about Nasa (sic) dishes there have been no other observations.

In conclusion I would suggest that all of you citizens of Camelot come out of the kindergarten into the real world and start behaving like adults and let us have a degree of proper technical discussion here sans conspiracy theories.
I acknowledge that I have raised numerous hackles over the last few weeks by tilting at sacred cow windmills but I would appreciate if, in replying to this post (the more the merrier) you would confine youself to technical rebuttal of the statements I have made rather than silly childish comments on font size, paragraphing etc.
Have a nice day !!

watty · 09-01-2011 4:49pm

My only commercial interest is simply in helping consumer reduce monthly outgoings to Sky or UPC.

semper fidelis you have not addressed a single point in http://www.techtir.ie/saortv/saorsat-coverage except to say it's

I particularly took Watty to task on the basis that his theories were mostly rubbish

Why and which theory is rubbish? Saying you don't agree isn't a rational argument, nor is a claim of past experience.

why is he going to such lengths to push something which is blatantly wrong ?

Why is it "blatantly" wrong?

as they propound the same theories all over again

You have not published yet any technical refutation. Anyone can come along and simply say it's wrong.

combining 9E with 28.5 is totally ridiculous

I've said that needs a specific dish & bracket configuration. Not much different to what many people use for 28.2 + 13E. It's doing 28.2E and 9E (ku) in heavy rain with no breakup of any channel. The current Eurobird 9A @ 9E is hardly ideal for Midwest Ireland. I'm 6km WEST of Limerick City along Shannon Estuary (The tidal bit, not the river). It needs professional install.

Existing ku band Eurobird 9A @ 9E

Most people that want Freesat or Sky already have it, so have to have a 2nd cassegrain dish for 9E. But most will use Aerial, not a dish at all.

Please actually read http://www.techtir.ie/saortv/saorsat-coverage and point out the errors in the logic step by step for each part rather than simply writing it all off as Baloney or Rubbish. Maybe we all might learn something.

Answer Two Questions.
1) How does dish size in say Manchester (UK Midlands) affect the relative signal power received of Irish Spot and French Calais Spot. Note they are from the same satellite, same frequencies and same Polarity.

2)What is the Eb/No or BER of an Irish Spot signal due to the French Calais Spot signal at same frequency, polarity, symbol rate and a commercially viable FEC, assuming a dish big enough in Manchester for good reception if there was no French signal and a Spot Profile equal to slightly bgger than smallest existing commerical single dedicated ka band spot @ 18.5GHz approx? How much better is the BER if the French signal is a really different symbol rate?

my answer (1):

It can't can it? If you quadruple the Irish signal by twice the size of dish, won't the French signal be Quadrupled too?

my answer (2):

I don't know. But at point of circle shown for actual service area the French signal must be enough lower for any arbitrary SR and FEC to work. If you are really mathematically expert you should have really good estimate even though Eutelsat specs are lacking

Tony · 09-01-2011 5:08pm

I simply do nt understand how you can possibly think my remark was snide, its says more about you than me.

I do not think it unreasonable to ask that you use the same font size as everyone else . Are your arguements so weak that you must resort to this childish behaviour?

semper fidelis wrote: »

I can't understand Tony the satellite salesman. In my previous post he put in a snide remark about the size of font that I used. Now that I have used a smaller font for his benefit he is still not happy.Tch.Tch.

Apogee · 09-01-2011 5:44pm

semper fidelis wrote: »

To the guy who thinks that the suggestion of combining 9E with 28.5 is totally ridiculous - hooray ! That is exactly what I have been saying. It is also what Watty et. al. have been saying.

Please cite/quote where Watty or anyone else proposed a hybdrid 9E/28E LNBF?

semper fidelis wrote: »

This is a 66 page thread sonny boy - go and look back over the discussions.

You'd do well to heed your own advice.

watty · 09-01-2011 5:55pm

I assumed he was critising the multi-feed dish. A hybrid LNBF isn't on.

Multifeed Dish for 28E (left most), 19E, 13E and 9E (currently ku, to be replaced in April/may 2011 by ka-band)

Standard Triax dish, standard Triax bracket. Triax spec says it's suitable for an arc of twenty degrees 28 - 9 = 19 degrees. Apogee and others of course know that actual separation depends on F/d of dish and how far west/North of 28E and 9E affects the separation also.

STB · 09-01-2011 11:21pm

You are worse Watty. This guy is pulling our legs.

This guy doesnt understand

* what the PSB mandate is
* who what and why as to Irelands usage of KA spot beams
* or have any shred of knowledge on the deployed satellite expected overspill (some do)
* TV rights and the interaction with holders in Ireland
* that this is a technical discussion board and that some people actually work in the broadcasting industry and know what they are talking about.

Ignore.

watty · 09-01-2011 11:50pm

I'm afraid I'm addicted to explaining and also give people benefit of doubt rather than assuming they are trolls simply because they say I'm wrong. I might be wrong. But if I am I need explained to me why I'm wrong, or else I won't simply believe it.

The Cush · 09-01-2011 11:56pm

Apogee wrote: »

semper fidelis wrote: »

Together with that you are proposing a hybrid lnb that will take tv (K U wide beam) from 28.2 and broadband (KA very narrow beam ) from 9.0. Not realistic !!

What are you on about? Nobody - at any point- has proposed a hybrid Ka/Ku LNBF spanning 9E and 28E. That is beyond idiotic.

Maybe the anaesthetic hasn't fully worn off yet?

The only one that mentioned anything hybrid was Conor Hayes last July

Mr. Conor Hayes: The UK channels are available under an approach called Freesat, which is broadcast by a company owned by the BBC and ITV. They broadcast these channels in the clear over Ireland using a wide-band satellite operating in the KU band. RTE’s satellite option is a narrow-band satellite operating in the Ka band. One cannot get them on the same satellite. In the US, there are hybrid dishes available and householders can receive Ka band and Ku band signals. That is technically feasible and there are some 22 million households in the US using it. The cost of the dish is approximately $65.

I took hybrid dish to mean (in this part of the world) a multi LNB setup to include both Ku and Ka band LNBs on one dish as Conor Hayes has (probably) never installed a satellite dish let alone a multi-LNB setup so would not have a practical understanding.

watty · 10-01-2011 10:27am

Even the US thing isn't a hybrid LNB, It's two LNBFs in a single package, like wider version of Duo (or Monobloc) using in Germany for 23+19 or 19+13. It's a multifeed with built-in switch.

I've only ever seen an C-band/Ku-band hybrid as a DIY. Receives C-band and Ku-Band from same Satellite.

A Hybrid LNB is only needed to get two bands from SAME position. We don't need that. Ka-band on 28.2E would thus be awkward. Ideally any Ka-Band service for UK & Ireland should ALWAYS be more than 3 degrees away from 28.2E to allow Dual Feeds. Hybrid Multiband LNB is never going to work well for Ka + Ku.

The US DirecTV multifeed is wrong spacing and also for Circular Polarisation. I had presumed that Conor Hayes mentioned it to illustrate purely that it's technically possible and not too expensive rather than as an actual product to buy. Calling it a "Hybrid Dish" is reasonable.

Anyway, that's why Ka-Sat is at 9E not 13E as originally mentioned as it's a least used Ku Band. The idea being it's easier to get 13E TV + 9E Data for Tooway. No doubt 16E +9E, 19E +9E and 5E+9E will all be installed by Tooway for Internet and TV. So far only we will be using 9E ka for TV. 28E + 9E can be TV + TV, or TV + Tooway & TV.

dowtchaboy · 10-01-2011 10:43am

semper fidelis wrote: »

Unfortunately since my last post I have undergone surgery over the Christmas period thus putting me out of action for a while but the brain is still active so I would like to take up where I left off.

Looks like personality bypass operation didn't work then?

Joey the lips · 11-01-2011 12:43am

Quick question and forgive me if its been asked...

Will i pick this up on my sky box without moving the satellite.(dish)

Assuming its tuned to sky...

Mr McBoatface · 11-01-2011 12:48am

Joey the lips wrote: »

Quick question and forgive me if its been asked...

Will i pick this up on my sky box without moving the satellite...

Assuming its tuned to sky...

Afraid not it's using a different satellite in orbit than the one used by SKY. As far as I know a SKY box isn't really suitable for use on any other satellite.

watty · 11-01-2011 10:36am

Joey the lips wrote: »

Quick question and forgive me if its been asked...

Will i pick this up on my sky box without moving the satellite...

Assuming its tuned to sky...

The quick answer is not a chance. No.

The more detailed answer.

The dish needs pointed about 20 degrees more westerly, nearly 10 degrees higher tilt up (elevation) and physically only a SkyHD could work, not regular Sky or Sky+. The SkyHD box then will likely not operate as it needs to have the Dish pointed at the Satellites that Sky & Freesat are "beamed from".

The thing on your house is a Dish, not a Satellite. The Satellite is 22,500miles (36,000km) above the equator. SkyBox receives from a group of 4 satellites close together to appear as if a single Satellite. All the way round the Earth is 360 degrees. There are Satellite positions evey 2 or 3 degrees. In Ireland you can receive (by moving the dish East/West and up/down) satellites from about 42E to 45W, about 20 positions.
Sky uses just one of these by renting space from Satellite owners, three satellites positioned at 28.2E and one at 28.5E.

Because we are at about 52 north and 5W and not at the Equator, a Satellite over the Equator at 5W "appears" highest in the Sky and due south. 42E Satellite appears to be lower in sky, close to horizon, even though it's the same height above the Equator.

The proposed Saorsat service will be on Ka-Sat at 9E. Hence a Dish to receive the signal need to point 28E - 9E, approximately 20 degrees more west and since it's closer to due South, apparently higher in the sky.

See all Satellites that appear to be Stationary (22,500miles/36,000km high)
http://www.oly-tech.com/graphics/stkbelt.jpg

View from Kent, UK
http://www.mbcsatellites.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2008/09/satellites.png

Article http://www.vhfman.freeuk.com/satellite/satdish.html

Apogee · 11-01-2011 7:02pm

NORAD TLE puts Ka-Sat at 8.66E currently.

http://www.n2yo.com/?s=37258

watty · 11-01-2011 7:25pm

Similar to watching paint dry!
LATITUDE:
0.11
LONGITUDE:
8.67
ALTITUDE [km]:
35768.62
ALTITUDE [mi]:
22225.59

The Cush · 12-01-2011 9:00am

Ka-Sat arrived at 9° E during the night

KA-SAT

LOCAL TIME: 7:52:44
UTC: 07:52:44
LATITUDE: -0.08
LONGITUDE: 9.02
ALTITUDE [km]: 35825.33
ALTITUDE [mi]: 22260.83
SPEED [km/s]: 0.01
SPEED [mi/s]: 0.01
AZIMUTH: 158.2 SSE
ELEVATION: +27.6
RA: 16h 1m 3s
DEC: -8° 31' 4''

http://www.n2yo.com/?s=37258

Apogee · 12-01-2011 1:57pm

Drifting to 8.8E now. Perhaps they're testing station-keeping.

semper fidelis · 12-01-2011 8:33pm

dowtchaboy wrote: »

Looks like personality bypass operation didn't work then?

Ho. Ho.

At least its good to see that some of you White Knight brigade have a sense of humour !

watty · 12-01-2011 9:31pm

I think some are of the "Red Branch" (Cróeb Ruad or Cróeb Derg?). I don't think we have any "White Knights".

bittihuduga · 12-01-2011 9:49pm

watty wrote: »

The proposed Saorsat service will be on Ka-Sat at 9E. Hence a Dish to receive the signal need to point 28E - 9E, approximately 20 degrees more west and since it's closer to due South, apparently higher in the sky.

watty
i am currently pointing my spare dish at 9E to receive the Hello.
once saorsat starts telecast sometime this year, will i be able to receive the rte channels without changing lnb or sat position?

Apogee · 12-01-2011 9:59pm

bittihuduga wrote: »

watty
i am currently pointing my spare dish at 9E to receive the Hello.
once saorsat starts telecast sometime this year, will i be able to receive the rte channels without changing lnb or sat position?

You'll need a Ka-band LNBF which operates at 19/20GHz as compared to your current Universal LNBF which operates at 10-12GHz.

warlikedave · 12-01-2011 10:25pm

can you get a Ka and Ku band combo LNB in one may i ask and as a matter of curiosity what is the Hello Service on 9e? :P

Apogee · 12-01-2011 10:42pm

warlikedave wrote: »

can you get a Ka and Ku band combo LNB in one may i ask and as a matter of curiosity what is the Hello Service on 9e? :P

No, you can't get a combo Ka/Ku for the same orbital position though Eutelsat have patented an approach.
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/y2010/0088729.html

Some of the Tooway dishes have a facility to receive both Ka and Ku band frequencies from the same orbital location by using a modified Gregorian dish setup. The Ka transceiver sits in front of the subreflector while the Ku LNBF sits behind the subreflector. The subreflector is transparent to Ku signal but reflects Ka signal.

Tony · 12-01-2011 10:45pm

Guess no one likes reading threads any more, same questions keep coming up here.

RTE Announce FTA Saorsat service

Comments