Paul Gogarty says he is being "patriotic" by propping up the government.

gandalf · 03-10-2010 10:50pm

Darsad wrote: »

Cant help but think that it will be all for nothing as Gogarty will probably have his wings clipped by the snots HQ in the morning when they get wind of what he offered . As much as I hate the greens I couldnt blame them for gagging Tutti Fruity Gogarty you never know what turd he would drop on them if allowed to debate online .

The cynic in me agrees 100% with you but then again you never know.

Whatever happens to stand even a slight chance of re-election Gogarty and the other Green TD's are going to have to think outside the box. This is their opportunity to start to do that and maybe directly engage with the electorate.

johnnyskeleton · 03-10-2010 11:14pm

DeVore wrote: »

My "tweet" in full:
"@PaulGogartyTD I and others would like to know why you and other supposedly angry TD's dont resign and trigger a G.E. http://bit.ly/bCf1rm "

You put all that in a tweet to GoGo? I'm surprised he didn't answer with:

PaulGogartyTD wrote:

@DeVore tl:dr

DeVore wrote: »

His reply:
@DeVore it's called patriotism

It is, in fact, quite the opposite of patriotism.

DeVore wrote: »

I find this answer deeply unsatifactory and smacks of glib smart-arsedness. I've subsequently put this to him:
@PaulGogartyTD Patriotism would be allowing the people of Ireland self determination. We would prefer an answer not a glib soundbite.

Nice. And even though you deeply disagree with him, you still managed to avoid using the F word. I mean it's very tough to avoid using profanity, if a government TD (is he minister for something - Minister for Newspaper Recycling in Cavan or something?) can't do it, then well done to a citizen like yourself from refraining from vulgarity.

Particularly since the origin of the word vulgar relates to the ordinary person as opposed to the patrician class.

DeVore wrote: »

On the plus side, at least he's responding directly which is more then the vast majority of our "representatives".

DeV.

They will respond with a soundbite and not answer any follow up questions. That's how they do. It's UCD L&H rules or some other thingy.

DeVore · 03-10-2010 11:24pm

Johnny, I consider the use of profanity in debate the sign of a weak mind and a poor vocabulary but I also understand the frailty of the human condition. I wouldnt castigate him for exploding as he did.

I agree with your other points but the last one I will wait and let them be judged by their own actions rather then predicting it with a bias. I'm always open to be surprised by people, it does occasionally lead to be massively disappointed but it also allows people to shine in a way you might not expect. I prefer to take this approach in spite of a lifetime of experience because I believe the few time of positivity out weight the constant disappointment.

Lets judge him and them on their future actions, not our predictions.

DeV.

johnnyskeleton · 03-10-2010 11:58pm

DeVore wrote: »

Johnny, I consider the use of profanity in debate the sign of a weak mind and a poor vocabulary but I also understand the frailty of the human condition. I wouldnt castigate him for exploding as he did.

Really? I mean in all the jobs I've worked in, other than part time jobs in supermarkets and the like, to curse in front of a client would be a massive faux pas. To curse in public would be the end of your career.

I don't think it is unreasonable to hold TDs to a higher standard than other jobs.

But in any event, the real issue is not the offensive language or the outburst, but that he was simply unable to come up with any response any better than FU. In terms of witty comebacks it is somewhere between Your ma and I am rubber you are glue.

So its not really the profanity as much as the lack of any thought put into his response that gets to me.

His rebel without a cause attitude is IMO making up for a lack of any real understanding (or caring) for what is going on.

DeVore · 04-10-2010 1:19am

Yes, fair comment, though you should come into the Boards HQ sometime....someone will shout "Oh jesus that F**KING MUPPET is back" at their screen within 5 minutes, I guarantee it...

Anyway we'll work out something that works for us, and him and all of ye as best we can and see where it goes to.

DeV.

Nevyn · 04-10-2010 9:14am

Big difference between a staff memeber saying that in the privacy of the office and
stating that on boards/twitter/email/youtube.

T.D.s are expected to uphold a certian standard in the Dáil during debates.
If a T.D. had an outburst and start crying during thier speach rather then using language unfitting for the Dáil I doubt it would be waved aside as easily.

Wibbs · 04-10-2010 9:40am

Thaedydal wrote: »

T.D.s are expected to uphold a certian standard in the Dáil during debates.

TBH I'd be happier if they actually showed up more.

If a T.D. had an outburst and start crying during thier speach rather then using language unfitting for the Dáil I doubt it would be waved aside as easily.

I think it depends on context too. Personally I don't see any language as "bad", if it adds to the point, not if it's used for shock effect or simply because the person has run out of vocabulary(which is the usual case). I'd feel similarly about emotional outbursts. I recall the actor chap Brendan Gleason on the Late Late, talking about the state of our health service and how his mother(I think?) was treated in it and IIRC he would have been bleeped on US TV a few times and he was fighting back tears of anger, sadness and frustration. Powerful stuff.

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

But in any event, the real issue is not the offensive language or the outburst, but that he was simply unable to come up with any response any better than FU. In terms of witty comebacks it is somewhere between Your ma and I am rubber you are glue.

What JS wrote.

Then again one outburst does not a muppet make. Not by a long shot. There are plenty in the Dail, who would never rise above shouting "fiddlesticks" that would deserve the title of muppet a lot more.

Sparks · 04-10-2010 10:10am

Wibbs wrote: »

TBH I'd be happier if they actually showed up more.

You'd wish for more than that if you ever watched a full debate.
A basic third-level education would be first on the list, along with a certain degree of domain knowledge. 1980s management schools be damned, you do need to know about something to properly fulfill an administrative role in it (the number of facepalms caused when anyone who knows anything about firearms reads the debates where firearms legislation was thrashed out in '06... well, there aren't enough lolcats, and if it's like that for one technical subject, it's going to be similar for just about everything else).

But then again, given a majority in government, there's no such thing as a debate anyway, so that's probably why we don't miss the above very much. Even during heated debates, with technical advisors on both sides saying that he was wrong, we watched two successive Ministers cross their arms in the Dail and Seanad and sit there with the world record attempt for smarmiest grin before guillotining bills that rewrote entire Acts that had evolved over decades. After that, it's rather hard to get excited because we're going to see posts from a guy whose most well-known contribution to dail debate has been of the four-letter variety.

oscarBravo · 04-10-2010 10:41am

Sparks wrote: »

...if it's like that for one technical subject, it's going to be similar for just about everything else.

Welcome to my world (broadband).

Sparks · 04-10-2010 10:42am

oscarBravo wrote: »

Welcome to my world (broadband).

Dude, I've been living here since 2000

reallyrose · 04-10-2010 10:47am

I'd also be worried that any answers we see from Mr. Gogarty would be rewritten and "PR'd" before being posted on boards.ie. And the more cynical part of me would be thinking "How would we know it was him at all?"

It is such a shame that my immediate reaction unpon hearing that a TD was willing to come onto a public forum board to directly address us was suspicion!

silverstrand · 04-10-2010 10:28pm

Could a list the most voted for or support questions be gathered.

My question is this:

Could you ask Mr Gogarty if that is so. Does that explain the criminal gangs and the hoards of virtually emotionally destitute living in abusive homes with no hope of help. Who become the criminals of tomorrow. And the growth of generations of broken people as a result. There paths are carefully drawn out for them before they are born by those high up in the Health Service especially. All of the childrens charity's know this and just put up with it. So my question is if the Greens are guilty of the economic collapse by their behaviour are they equally responsible for the decades of planning for the degradation of hoards of Irish citizens. The disproportionate number involved points to a problem within the state.

Is he going to apologise and take responsibility for them and to them, is he also going to say it is all our fault, as supposedly our economics is, not the utterly abysmal and grotesque element within our politics and hired purposely within our Health Service. Hired for their ability to do what needs to be when told to. Like turn your back or spend the money on anything at all, stupid buildings or holidays or parties etc etc oh not to mention the massive pay increases these people woke up to one morning, given by Ms Cut Back Harney, to keep their moral conscience numbed with cash. Is that his fault, is that the 'peoples' fault also. Is what happened to that girl in Mayo who starved to death the 'peoples' fault. I am just wondering where it ends. Even those stupid enough to vote FF that I knew never knew they were voting for this. They were trusting 'the party'. They still thought it all just happened and God made some people demented and politics has no role. But imagine how they woke up and found actually not true as the Church scandals taught them. One day they will wake up and realise the same about these 'gangs' so as the greens are in Politics they must already know this. No big surprises I take it the 'Greens' they are ahead of everyone on this and also hold that they are responsible? Are they doing there Patriotic duty on this hell?. Isn't Ms Cut Back Harney still free not behind bars. Isn't the same system still in place just as the economic people are still in place. Trying to find the Patriotic duty where exactly is it, It is a bit confusing.

Also

What responsibility has Politics to the People (Its employer)? If the people are responsible for the mess of Politics

Sparks · 04-10-2010 10:38pm

How about something more fundamental, like:

Is there any point beyond public appearances in pretending that we still utilise debate in our political system, when the party whip is used on every vote; when bills are guillotined to meet deadlines external to the oireachtas; when debates are considered to be relatively well attended if there is more than one member of the cabinet present; when the degree of technical knowledge displayed by those speaking of the areas being legislated is most politely described as absent; when the government operates off information that is not made available to all parties; and when policies are announced as fait accompli to the media before the debate begins?

After all, if debate isn't anything more than a PR exercise anymore, there's little point in expending further effort on a debate here.

Focalbhach · 04-10-2010 11:15pm

Sparks wrote: »

How about something more fundamental, like:

Is there any point beyond public appearances in pretending that we still utilise debate in our political system, when the party whip is used on every vote...

After all, if debate isn't anything more than a PR exercise anymore, there's little point in expending further effort on a debate here.

This, yes.

The lack of technical knowledge (and logical thinking) displayed by our elected representatives is a problem, but a separate one, I think. It's not as if it's 'Government's lack of knowledge vs. Opposition's lack of knowledge'. It's 'Government's lack of knowledge, whip, bill passed'.

Sparks · 04-10-2010 11:21pm

Leto wrote: »

This, yes.

The lack of technical knowledge (and logical thinking) displayed by our elected representatives is a problem, but a separate one, I think. It's not as if it's 'Government's lack of knowledge vs. Opposition's lack of knowledge'. It's 'Government's lack of knowledge, whip, bill passed'.

Personally, I think it's all bound up in the same bundle; uninformed debate isn't debate, after all, it's two idiots trying to decide who wins.

Wibbs · 04-10-2010 11:33pm

Sparks wrote: »

Personally, I think it's all bound up in the same bundle; uninformed debate isn't debate, after all, it's two idiots trying to decide who wins.

Christ Sparks, the sad thing is you could say that about so much of our politics, politicians and policies.

Amhran Nua · 07-10-2010 1:03am

DeVore wrote: »

But you know what, fair f*cks to the guy for at least having the balls to stand up and say "I made this decision and I'm sticking with it".

So, five days later and nothing new?

DeVore · 07-10-2010 2:26am

I've been in contact with Mr Gogarty to appraise him of account details etc, the mods and I are discussing how to handle this, i'm talking to the forum to garner input as to how people here want to interact and to check my thoughts with them, the community managers are prepped and are blocking time out in case we need to assist Mr Gogarty in person and I'm talking to the Board of directors of Boards to ensure we are all kept in the loop as to what its loopy leader is off doing this time when/if it makes the mainstream media....

all of this while I'm on holidays abroad in a foreign country.

But yeah..... nothing new.

:rolleyes:

DeV.

Amhran Nua · 07-10-2010 11:20am

DeVore wrote: »

I've been in contact with Mr Gogarty to appraise him of account details etc, the mods and I are discussing how to handle this, i'm talking to the forum to garner input as to how people here want to interact and to check my thoughts with them, the community managers are prepped and are blocking time out in case we need to assist Mr Gogarty in person and I'm talking to the Board of directors of Boards to ensure we are all kept in the loop as to what its loopy leader is off doing this time when/if it makes the mainstream media....

all of this while I'm on holidays abroad in a foreign country.

Ah holidays, haven't had one of them in a decade. Good to hear it's moving forward, have we got a date yet for the big event? Might it also be a good idea to let the mainstream media know about it in advance, a press release to all outlets? I have a mailing list if you want me to send it to you.

-Chris- · 07-10-2010 11:24am

The more you publicise it and draw eyeballs to it, the more stage managed it'll be from his side.

I'd say leave him thinking it's "casual" between him and the posters of boards and let him answer candidly. After that, if he says anything good or controversial it'll create it's own momentum.

Amhran Nua · 07-10-2010 11:28am

-Chris- wrote: »

The more you publicise it and draw eyeballs to it, the more stage managed it'll be from his side.

I'd say leave him thinking it's "casual" between him and the posters of boards and let him answer candidly. After that, if he says anything good or controversial it'll create it's own momentum.

On the other hand, making everyone aware of this groundbreaking event, the First Ever Live National TD Internet Debate, is great for boards and will likely make little difference to what Mr Gogarty has to say regardless, since its all on the record. Also if you want it to become an ubiquitous element of Irish political life, you're going to need as many eyeballs on it from day one as possible.

DeVore · 07-10-2010 11:30am

Yup, I would agree... we'll publicise it within Boards so that members here know whats going on if they want to drop by and drop in a question or two.

I spoke with Mr Gogarty about "stage management" and he was first to say that he tweets and posts completely on his own. Now, I'm not naive either, I know how political stagecraft works but I do believe he will be posting for himself. Allowing someone else to post for him is just asking for a world of hurt as they would be speaking with his voice and he would have to agree with them anyway, which would make them a typist rather than a spin doctor. TBH, I doubt the Greens can afford many such luxuries and I am not concerned about the veracity of his posts. Its clearly him on twitter and I think it will be just as clearly him, here.

DeV.

Police Chief Wiggum · 07-10-2010 11:39am

when pat kenny has minister lenehen on his show the day after every budget pat takes queries from the public and puts them to the minister

that might be a way to go

my question for Mr Gogarty would
why not GO to the people? what is the worst that could happen?

could anything be worse than this paralysis and gunless civil war

Di0genes · 07-10-2010 7:26pm

Where Josh joins up to a webforum?

Josh: Sit down, we’re going to post a response on the site.
Donna: What site?
Josh: Lemon-
Donna: No.
Josh: Yeah, we gotta post a response to someone.
Donna: It’s a bad idea.
Josh: Why?
Donna: You don’t know these people.
Josh: Neither do you.
Donna: Yes I do.
Josh: What’s wrong with them?
Donna: Nobody knows.

3:00

Donna: [After typing the response Josh insists on sending] What Josh doesn’t know is that some of these people haven’t taken their medication. Let’s watch what happens now.

3:18

Josh: Donna… something weird is happened here.

Donna: What?
Josh: Lemon-
Donna: No…
Josh: They don’t seem to have taken my response in the spirit it was intended.
Donna: Yeah
Josh: Seems to be a very unusual social structure…for instance, there’s a leader who seems to pride herself on her organizational skills and a certain amount of discipline…
Donna: Right, that’s what’s called a “control freak”.
Josh: She does seem to do an awful lot of scolding: “You posted in the wrong place… Stay on topic, people… Don’t use capital letters… I don’t have time to tell you twice” when clearly she does have time to tell us twice.

4:58
Josh: (dictating) “… and I believe I’ll use capital, lowercase, or san-skrit right up until the moment that the ‘font police’ cuff me and read me Miranda.”
Donna: That’ll show ‘em.
Josh: I think these are good people by and large, but they’ve come under the thumb of a dictatorial ruler, so as with a small central american country, my role is to incite the people to topple her.

5:28

Josh: The internet people are going crazy…
Donna: (mockingly incredulous) You’re kidding!

…

Josh: … a page and a half of posts debating whether or not I was mocking Egyptians with the san-skrit reference.
Donna: I told you they were hysterical.
Josh: I thought you meant they were funny.
Donna: They’re not!
Josh: I know they’re not! It’s Lord of the Flies in there!

andrew cross · 07-10-2010 10:32pm

maybe the real greens might rise from the ashes after they are roasted at the next g. e. the greens got to the trough and snouts came out just like fianna failers i guess the got addicted to the swill :mad:

08-10-2010 8:57am

DeVore wrote: »

Yup, I would agree... we'll publicise it within Boards so that members here know whats going on if they want to drop by and drop in a question or two.

I spoke with Mr Gogarty about "stage management" and he was first to say that he tweets and posts completely on his own. Now, I'm not naive either, I know how political stagecraft works but I do believe he will be posting for himself. Allowing someone else to post for him is just asking for a world of hurt as they would be speaking with his voice and he would have to agree with them anyway, which would make them a typist rather than a spin doctor. TBH, I doubt the Greens can afford many such luxuries and I am not concerned about the veracity of his posts. Its clearly him on twitter and I think it will be just as clearly him, here.

DeV.

Of course he will have a team with him on a project like this.
We won't see them,but they will have input into how he answers questions here.
He wants to keep his seat,he's not an eejit,thats what he will do.
Mind you if he thinks he's going to keep his seat he's deluded.

PaulGogartyTD · 09-10-2010 8:22pm

No team. Just me and my laptop and phone. Will be moving around too much during the day to have an advisor beside me. And for part of the time my phone will be my internet dongle so I won't be on a conference call either. Will have a few things on during the day and will mention these as I post along.

-Chris- · 09-10-2010 8:39pm

Fair play to you for volunteering for this Paul. I wish all politicians were as brave as you're being.

Nehaxak · 09-10-2010 8:44pm

It shouldn't be a rare event that a politician puts themselves forward for debates in a public forum, but fair dues nonetheless for taking the bait Paul - reel him in lads

Ah no, it's a good thing, looking forward to reading it all as it happens on the day...

snollup · 09-10-2010 9:50pm

Fair play Paul for taking on the challenge. Whatever my feelings for the the GP are (not good feeling my friend) it is good to see you willing to answer some questions directly. I will be reading with interested.

Paul Gogarty says he is being "patriotic" by propping up the government.

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