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Israeli apartheid
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Wes I have noticed you have a tendency o absent yourself from threads when some quotes from Holy books are posted and I have lost count of the number of times you have said you are not going to reply to any more of my posts !
That is hardly debating !0 -
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Wes I have noticed you have a tendency o absent yourself from threads when some quotes from Holy books are posted and I have lost count of the number of times you have said you are not going to reply to any more of my posts !
That is hardly debating !
*cough*cough0 -
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/may/12/elie-wiesel-criticism-jerusalem-residentsAn extraordinary row has broken out between Elie Wiesel, the Holocaust survivor, author and Nobel peace prize winner, and a group of Jewish residents of Jerusalem over who speaks for the future of the disputed city.
Wiesel prompted the argument with an open letter to Barack Obama appealing for him not to "politicise" differences over Jerusalem by pressing Israel to stop Jewish settlement construction there. In a reflection of the divisions that sometimes exist between Jews who live in the city and those who idealise it from afar, 100 Jewish residents have responded with their own open letter expressing "outrage" at Wiesel's call, and accusing him of sentimentality and falsely claiming that there is no discrimination against Jerusalem's Arab population.0 -
Both sides are wrong.Also, there is no real different between the IDF punishing (via murder, near starvation, denial of basic human rights etc) all Palestinians for the violence of the few, and Hamas launching random rocket attacks at Israeli civilians, for the actions of there own crazies running there country. Both sides come up with pathetic excuses, but it doesn't change the fact what they do is wrong.
There is a very big difference. Namely that Israel recieves a great deal more of rocket attacks before it retaliates than the other way around.
Also, you never seem to take intent into account. The Israeli intent is (in general) to stop the terrorists in Gaza. As the overwhealming majority of the voters elected an openly terrorist party.
The govrn. in Israel was not elected via the mantra of "death to Gaza". And yet, the rockets being fired into Sderot come with a "kill anyone we can" intent.
If Israel's true intent was to get rid of the Palestinians, they would just do it. They have shown they don't care what the world thinks time and time again. The reason they don't, is because they do not have that intent.
Intent is not some wishy washy ideology that can be dismissed, it is the difference between manslaughter and murder.0 -
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Both sides are wrong.
There is a very big difference. Namely that Israel recieves a great deal more of rocket attacks before it retaliates than the other way around.
Also, you never seem to take intent into account. The Israeli intent is (in general) to stop the terrorists in Gaza. As the overwhealming majority of the voters elected an openly terrorist party.
The govrn. in Israel was not elected via the mantra of "death to Gaza". And yet, the rockets being fired into Sderot come with a "kill anyone we can" intent.
If Israel's true intent was to get rid of the Palestinians, they would just do it. They have shown they don't care what the world thinks time and time again. The reason they don't, is because they do not have that intent.
Intent is not some wishy washy ideology that can be dismissed, it is the difference between manslaughter and murder.
Quite correct; as I have said before, Israel attacks in retaliation, Hamas attacks to provoke.0 -
Both sides are wrong.
Yes, I have stated as much myself in regards to violence.There is a very big difference. Namely that Israel recieves a great deal more of rocket attacks before it retaliates than the other way around.
The ongoing siege of Gaza is a constant act of aggression, as is the constant land theft in the West Bank and East Jerusalem. Also, looking at the figures, Israel has killed far more civilians than the Palestinians.Also, you never seem to take intent into account. The Israeli intent is (in general) to stop the terrorists in Gaza. As the overwhealming majority of the voters elected an openly terrorist party.
The intent of Israel is to colonize Palestinian land, and use violence to achieve this aim. It seems to me that the intent of Israel is brushed under the carpet as it is inconvient.
Also, Israel elected Ariel Sharon as Prime Minister at one point, so are in no position to claim moral superirority. Also, all Israeli governments openly stole Palestinian land, so again there no better.The govrn. in Israel was not elected via the mantra of "death to Gaza". And yet, the rockets being fired into Sderot come with a "kill anyone we can" intent.
Yes, rocket attack are wrong, but so is the siege, which you seem to forget about. You see, even when the rocket attack stop, Israel siege continues. You see Israel never stops its aggression. The occupation continues, colonization continues, the siege continues. Israel never lets up with its violence, but rockets attacks do stop for lengthy periods, which is something you forget to mention.If Israel's true intent was to get rid of the Palestinians, they would just do it. They have shown they don't care what the world thinks time and time again. The reason they don't, is because they do not have that intent.
Open ethnic cleansing in this day and age would be impossible to get away with. Slow colonizations has gotten under the rader just fine however.Intent is not some wishy washy ideology that can be dismissed, it is the difference between manslaughter and murder.
I am not dismissing intent. Israel intent is openly racists and murderous. No different than Hamas, except in scale, where Israel murders far more civilians and is cheered on by certain Western countries. Israel never stop its aggression, where as when the Palestinian stop there aggression, as in the West Bank, they get the same old murder, and colonization as we have come to expect from Israel. You see in the West Bank, the PA there are working with Israel to stop attackes and recieve nothing but more settlement in return. When, Israel stops its aggression, perhaps then they can be taken seriously.
**EDIT**
Also, before anyone tries the old the setters aren't the Israeli governments fault, it should be pointed out, that the illegal settlements, are protected by the IDF, they recieve electricity and other serivices from Israel, that the Israeli government builds roads etc to service.
To claim that they are seperate entities, is a simple factual inaccuracy, that is easily disproven, and has in fact been done so several times in this thread, and I would find it odd that any would make such a absurd and easily disproven claim.
Also, Avigidor Lieberman, an Israeli minister, is a West Bank settler, so this make the claim double ludicrous, and absurd.
As I said before, Israel is engaged in constant aggression, via land theft, there general occupation nastiness of treating Palestinains as sub humans, there siege of Gaza, and various murderous attacks by either the IDF, or there nutter settlers.
**END EDIT**0 -
Suffice to say that the State of Israel and the settlers are separate entities and Israel has already shown in the past that it would forcibly remove Israeli settlers. Israel does not hold genocidal intentions towards Palestine whereas hams has in its foundation document declared its intentiosn to destroy Israel.
References and quotations are available and have already been posted.
Hamas is also allied with iran which has expressed its desire to destroy Israel.0 -
The siege remains because of the threat from Hamas to destroy Israel remains. Correction, Hamas does not recognise Israel, I should have said the threats to exterminate the Jewish "apes and pigs" (as per the Koran) remains.The ongoing siege of Gaza is a constant act of aggression.
I accept that point.The intent of Israel is to colonize Palestinian land, and use violence to achieve this aim. It seems to me that the intent of Israel is brushed under the carpet as it is inconvient.
Did he call for the death of all Muslims in Israeli land?Also, Israel elected Ariel Sharon as Prime Minister at one point, so are in no position to claim moral superirority.
Maybe if Hamas withdrew (actually it could start by recognising Israel) its intent to destroy Israel then the wall could come down.Yes, rocket attack are wrong, but so is the siege, which you seem to forget about. You see, even when the rocket attack stop, Israel siege continues. You see Israel never stops its aggression. The occupation continues, colonization continues, the siege continues. Israel never lets up with its violence, but rockets attacks do stop for lengthy periods, which is something you forget to mention.
Is that not what has been claimed happened in Gaza?Open ethnic cleansing in this day and age would be impossible to get away with.
Every arab on the Israeli side of the border was given israeli citizenship and exactly the same rights as the Jews or christians for that matter. This claim of a racist Israel is simply not true in my opinion.I am not dismissing intent. Israel intent is openly racists and murderous. No different than Hamas, except in scale0 -
Every arab on the Israeli side of the border was given israeli citizenship and exactly the same rights as the Jews or christians for that matter. This claim of a racist Israel is simply not true in my opinion.
Then why is there a two tier system in the West Bank and the rest of the OT?0 -
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The siege remains because of the threat from Hamas to destroy Israel remains. Correction, Hamas does not recognise Israel, I should have said the threats to exterminate the Jewish "apes and pigs" (as per the Koran) remains.
The siege is illegal under international law, firstly. Secondly, Hamas have stopped firing rockets, and have even taken steps to stop other firing rockets. Lastly, the siege is an act of aggression, even when no rockets come from Gaza, the siege continues.
Also, certain Biblical interpretations actively promotes genocide, and seeing as the Bible is the basis for the creation of the state of Israel, then the Palestinian can just as easily invoke Jewish Religious texts to excuse there terrorism, just as easily.
**EDIT**
Oh just to back up the above, the IDF Chief Rabbi invoked the Bible during the most recent war on Gaza by Israel:IDF rabbinate publication during Gaza war: We will show no mercy on the cruel
'[There's] biblical ban on surrendering single millimeter of [Land of Israel] to gentiles,' publication said.
By Amos Harel
During the fighting in the Gaza Strip, the religious media - and on two occasions, the Israel Defense Forces weekly journal Bamahane - were full of praise for the army rabbinate. The substantial role of religious officers and soldiers in the front-line units of the IDF was, for the first time, supported also by the significant presence of rabbis there.
The chief army rabbi, Brigadier General Avichai Rontzki, joined the troops in the field on a number of occasions, as did rabbis under his command.
Officers and soldiers reported that they felt "spiritually elevated" and "morally empowered" by conversations with rabbis who gave them encouragement before the confrontation with the Palestinians.
But what exactly was the content of these conversations and of the plethora of written material disseminated by the IDF rabbinate during the war? A reservist battalion rabbi told the religious newspaper B'Sheva last week that Rontzki explained to his staff that their role was not "to distribute wine and challah for Shabbat to the troops," but "to fill them with yiddishkeit and a fighting spirit."
An overview of some of the army rabbinate's publications made available during the fighting reflects the tone of nationalist propaganda that steps blatantly into politics, sounds racist and can be interpreted as a call to challenge international law when it comes to dealing with enemy civilians.
Haaretz has received some of the publications through Breaking the Silence, a group of former soldiers who collect evidence of unacceptable behavior in the army vis-a-vis Palestinians. Other material was provided by officers and men who received it during Operation Cast Lead. Following are quotations from this material:
"[There is] a biblical ban on surrendering a single millimeter of it [the Land of Israel] to gentiles, though all sorts of impure distortions and foolishness of autonomy, enclaves and other national weaknesses. We will not abandon it to the hands of another nation, not a finger, not a nail of it." This is an excerpt from a publication entitled "Daily Torah studies for the soldier and the commander in Operation Cast Lead," issued by the IDF rabbinate. The text is from "Books of Rabbi Shlomo Aviner," who heads the Ateret Cohanim yeshiva in the Muslim quarter of the Old City in Jerusalem.
The following questions are posed in one publication: "Is it possible to compare today's Palestinians to the Philistines of the past? And if so, is it possible to apply lessons today from the military tactics of Samson and David?" Rabbi Aviner is again quoted as saying: "A comparison is possible because the Philistines of the past were not natives and had invaded from a foreign land ... They invaded the Land of Israel, a land that did not belong to them and claimed political ownership over our country ... Today the problem is the same. The Palestinians claim they deserve a state here, when in reality there was never a Palestinian or Arab state within the borders of our country. Moreover, most of them are new and came here close to the time of the War of Independence."
Click here for full article
Above the Palestinians are being directly compared to people, where certain Biblical interpretations, essentially call for there Genocide. Strangely in the West, this Religious extremism from the IDF Rabbi's has been quickly forgotten. It also engages in racist denial of Genetic, and historical facts, that establish Palestinians, as being indigenous people, descended from the various people (including Jews btw), who lived in what is today, Israel and Palestine.
**END EDIT**
The simple fact of the matter, is that there is no justification for Israel siege, and to pretend that it is not aggression is nothing short of absurd. Israel needs to stop there state terrorism against the Palestinians, in much the same way as Palestinian groups need to stop there violence. The current double standard will not result in peace.I accept that point.
Good. So both sides need to cut the crap then.Did he call for the death of all Muslims in Israeli land?
No, he was actually found responsible by an Israel's own Kahan commission, that he "bears personal responsibility" for the Sabra and Shatilla massacres. So, he actually practiced what he preached so to speak.Maybe if Hamas withdrew (actually it could start by recognising Israel) its intent to destroy Israel then the wall could come down.
Sure, Hamas should recognize Israel, and sure they should stop there violence, but there idiocy is no excuse for Israel's siege of Gaza.
Secondly, in the West Bank, where Israel is building the apartheid wall, Fatah have recognize Israel, and actively work with Israel to stop attacks on Israeli civilians, and still land is being stolen, and there still building there wall. So, seeing as one group of Palestinians have actually done what you have suggested, and yet still Israel treats the Palestinians like sub human crap. So, even if Hamas did the above, I know as per the West Bank, that Israel will continue doing what Israel always does.Is that not what has been claimed happened in Gaza?
Nope. They did however murder many civilians as per the Goldstone report, but they did not expel the population.Every arab on the Israeli side of the border was given israeli citizenship and exactly the same rights as the Jews or christians for that matter. This claim of a racist Israel is simply not true in my opinion.
Well, you are entitled to your own opinion, but what you are not entitled to is your own facts.
Firstly, the concept of a state along racial lines, is inherently racist, and seeing as Israel is a "Jewish" state, it fits the bill on that basis alone.
Secondly, you claim of Palestinians in Israel of having equal rights, is simply factually incorrect, even the US state department disagrees on that:2008 Human Rights Report: Israel and the occupied territories
--SNIP--
Arab Israelis continued to suffer various forms of discrimination in public and private life. Tensions between Arabs and Jews also remained high in areas where the two communities overlap, such as the Galilee and Negev, and in certain mixed cities with separate Jewish and Arab neighborhoods.
--SNIP--
Also, Palestinians in Israel have trouble buying land:
No entry for Arabs
Then there is the racist marriage law, in which they are subjected to:
'Racist' marriage law upheld by Israel
So your claim of equality if factually incorrect.
Thirdly, you can't ignore what Israel does to Palestinians in Gaza, the West Bank, and East Jerusalem, with many examples of the Israel's racism on show for all to see.0 -
Even when Israel sends humanitarian aid, they continue to send rockets without significant intteruption.The siege is illegal under international law, firstly. Secondly, Hamas have stopped firing rockets, and have even taken steps to stop other firing rockets. Lastly, the siege is an act of aggression, even when no rockets come from Gaza, the siege continues.
As do the members of parliament and the generals who backed those operations.No, he was actually found responsible by an Israel's own Kahan commission, that he "bears personal responsibility" for the Sabra and Shatilla massacres. So, he actually practiced what he preached so to speak.
When I was younger, every week there was a bomb in a market or on a bus in Israel. They built the wall, the bombs stopped. They shouldn't be taking extra land, but the wall has kept Israel safe.Secondly, in the West Bank, where Israel is building the apartheid wall, Fatah have recognize Israel, and actively work with Israel to stop attacks on Israeli civilians, and still land is being stolen, and there still building there wall.
Just because Israel recognises Jews as a race does not make them a race. The Jews in Israel are a mirade of different races from Germany to Ethiopia to Russia. They are all different races therefore the state of Israel is not drawn along racial lines, not matter how much it suits your argument.Firstly, the concept of a state along racial lines, is inherently racist, and seeing as Israel is a "Jewish" state, it fits the bill on that basis alone.
And? Members of the travelling community cannot get into a pub in Ireland, let alone buy land!Secondly, you claim of Palestinians in Israel of having equal rights, is simply factually incorrect, even the US state department disagrees on that:
Also, Palestinians in Israel have trouble buying land:
No entry for Arabs .0 -
Even when Israel (.........) buy land!
If you wouldn't mind.....
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=65935680&postcount=5830 -
Even when Israel sends humanitarian aid, they continue to send rockets without significant intteruption.
Israel has blocked most of the aid via the siege, and there have been have been periods where there has been no rocket fire.As do the members of parliament and the generals who backed those operations.
Yes, so what? My point remains, he was elected Prime Minister, so you are in no position to claim moral superiority for the Israeli electorate, as they elected the likes of Ariel Sharon.When I was younger, every week there was a bomb in a market or on a bus in Israel. They built the wall, the bombs stopped. They shouldn't be taking extra land, but the wall has kept Israel safe.
A fallacy, the wall is incomplete, and a suicide bomber can still get into Israel, in the area's where the wall is still incomplete. Also, Israel can build a wall on there own land, but instead choose to steal Palestinian land, which is another act of aggression, which they claim is for security, but this claim is easily shown to be a lie, as a wall would work just fine built on there own land, and there are no suicide attack, despite the fact there wall is incomplete, and 1000's of Palestinian get into Israel to work illegally.
Also, during the period you describe, Israel was stealing land, and the period before that, when there were no suicide attacks on Israel, they were stealing land. In fact, Israel entire existence is built on stealing other peoples land.Just because Israel recognises Jews as a race does not make them a race. The Jews in Israel are a mirade of different races from Germany to Ethiopia to Russia. They are all different races therefore the state of Israel is not drawn along racial lines, not matter how much it suits your argument.
Firstly, there is no such thing as race, its a social construct. Racism is a social construct as well. Israel saying Jews are a race, and that basing a state around this is racism. Race being a social construct, does not mean Israel is not racist.
Basing, a state around a race is inherently racist. If someone started banging on about a white state, it would be very quickly called racists, despite the fact that there is no such things as white race either, or a black race, or an Indian one. There is only the Human race, but we still come with the false social construct of race, and hate each other on this basis.And? Members of the travelling community cannot get into a pub in Ireland, let alone buy land!
Racism in our country, doesn't excuse racism in other countries. Also, you claimed that Palestinians had equality in Israel, which I showed to be wrong, and instead of addressing my point, you come up with the above cop out instead.
Also, last time i checked, we have no miscegenation laws targeting any groups, or racist laws equivalent to Israel. No, roads for the sole use of one ethnic groups, no separate legal systems or nonsense like that, but this thread isn't about Ireland, and I was replying to a claim you made, and what you say above is the same old obfuscation, to deflect the facts I provided. Simply put, you claim of equality, was factually incorrect. Talking about Ireland or anywhere else, is an attempt to distract from this.0 -
there has been no substantial halt of rocket fire.Israel has blocked most of the aid via the siege, and there have been have been periods where there has been no rocket fire.
It does not remain. Ariel Sharon did not call for the destruction of the Muslim "apes and pigs", or muslims in general. Hamas has done this, not least in its charter but in the cartoons it shows its children.Yes, so what? My point remains, he was elected Prime Minister, so you are in no position to claim moral superiority for the Israeli electorate, as they elected the likes of Ariel Sharon.
The distance where the wall is covering has released thousands of troops to other positions. Surely your not naive enough to think that the suicide bombers just woke up one morning and decided not to bomb Israel anymore.A fallacy, the wall is incomplete, and a suicide bomber can still get into Israel, in the area's where the wall is still incomplete.
Besides the golan heights, Israel has not taken any land which was not given to it when transjordan was split.Also, during the period you describe, Israel was stealing land, and the period before that, when there were no suicide attacks on Israel, they were stealing land. In fact, Israel entire existence is built on stealing other peoples land.
If you do not accept that humans have evolved differently in order to cope with the various climates in which they live then we're at nothing here. Darwin is turning in his grave right now. Maybe you have your own definition or something but the oxford english dictionary is pretty clear on it: http://dictionary.oed.com/cgi/entry/50195905?single=1&query_type=word&queryword=racism&first=1&max_to_show=10Firstly, there is no such thing as race, its a social construct. Racism is a social construct as well. Israel saying Jews are a race, and that basing a state around this is racism. Race being a social construct, does not mean Israel is not racist.
You miss a key point on regarding the State of Israel and racism in general. To set up a white state would not be accepted because it discriminates on biology, now as you just said, we are all one race, hence discriminating on biology is unacceptable.Basing, a state around a race is inherently racist. If someone started banging on about a white state, it would be very quickly called racists, despite the fact that there is no such things as white race either, or a black race, or an Indian one.
However, discriminating on belief is another story. That is the foundation of nation-states: groups of people who believe the same thing. Israel gives atomatic citizenship to Jews around the world because of their belief, not because of their race. That is the difference and as such I will conclude again that Israel is not a racist state.
fair enough.Racism in our country, doesn't excuse racism in other countries. Also, you claimed that Palestinians had equality in Israel, which I showed to be wrong, and instead of addressing my point, you come up with the above cop out instead.
Also, last time i checked, we have no miscegenation laws targeting any groups, or racist laws equivalent to Israel. No, roads for the sole use of one ethnic groups, no separate legal systems or nonsense like that, but this thread isn't about Ireland, and I was replying to a claim you made, and what you say above is the same old obfuscation, to deflect the facts I provided. Simply put, you claim of equality, was factually incorrect. Talking about Ireland or anywhere else, is an attempt to distract from this.0 -
Gladly, in order to build a state you must secure it first. Then you can impliment your laws. I do not agree with Israel doing this.If you wouldn't mind.....
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=65935680&postcount=5830 -
It does not remain. Ariel Sharon did not call for the destruction of the Muslim "apes and pigs", or muslims in general. Hamas has done this, not least in its charter but in the cartoons it shows its children.
SS can you explain these quotes to me. It seems to me that there is very little difference in the tone and intent of these to anything said by the extremists on the other side.
" [The Palestinians are] beasts walking on two legs." Menahim Begin,
speech to the Knesset, quoted in Amnon Kapeliouk, "Begin and the
Beasts". New Statesman, 25 June 1982.
"When we have settled the land, all the Arabs will be able to do
about it will be to scurry around like drugged cockroaches in a bottle."
Raphael Eitan, Chief of Staff of the Israeli Defence Forces, New York
Times, 14 April 1983.
"The thesis that the danger of genocide was hanging over us in June
1967 and that Israel was fighting for its physical existence is only
bluff, which was born and developed after the war." Israeli General
Matityahu Peled, Ha'aretz, 19 March 1972.
"We have to kill all the Palestinians unless they are resigned to
live here as slaves." Chairman Heilbrun of the Committee for the Re-election of General Shlomo Lahat, the mayor of Tel Aviv, October 1983.
"We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation,
and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab
population." Israel Koenig, "The Koenig Memorandum"0 -
there has been no substantial halt of rocket fire.
Simply untrue:
Four Gaza factions halt rocket fire, in bow to HamasIt does not remain. Ariel Sharon did not call for the destruction of the Muslim "apes and pigs", or muslims in general. Hamas has done this, not least in its charter but in the cartoons it shows its children.
No, he is just has a "personal responsibility" for the deaths of 1000's of dead civilians, who were brutally butchered. I fail to see how he is some how better than Hamas, but then dead Palestinians never bothered Israel.The distance where the wall is covering has released thousands of troops to other positions. Surely your not naive enough to think that the suicide bombers just woke up one morning and decided not to bomb Israel anymore.
Surely the fact that 1000's of Palestinians getting into Israel illegally shows that if a suicide bomber wanted to enter Israel, that they could do so. You have claimed the wall stops suicide attackers entering Israel, and the fact is that Palestinians enter Israel illegally in there 1000's, so your claims is provable false:
Under cover of the night: Palestinian ghost workers in Israel
The fact is that if a suicide bomber wanted to attack Israel, they could so, as Palestinians are capable of entering Israel illegally.Besides the golan heights, Israel has not taken any land which was not given to it when transjordan was split.
Israel wasn't actually given any land ever, you see UN General Assembly resolutions are non-binding. Israel took the land using violence. You see Israel version of events is a lie.If you do not accept that humans have evolved differently in order to cope with the various climates in which they live then we're at nothing here.
Darwin is turning in his grave right now.
Please read up on the Human Genome project. To put is simply, you are once again factually incorrect:
DNA Sequencing and Sequence Variation
As can be seen in the link, Human Beings are basically the same regardless of race. To put it simply, your claims have no factually basis, and have long ago been dis proven.Maybe you have your own definition or something but the oxford english dictionary is pretty clear on it: http://dictionary.oed.com/cgi/entry/50195905?single=1&query_type=word&queryword=racism&first=1&max_to_show=10
Have to register to read that, and I can't be bothered, but the following definition works just fine:http://www.thefreedictionary.com/racism
rac·ism (rszm)
n.
1. The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others.
2. Discrimination or prejudice based on race.
The above works just fine with race being a social construct, which is an established fact.You miss a key point on regarding the State of Israel and racism in general. To set up a white state would not be accepted because it discriminates on biology, now as you just said, we are all one race, hence discriminating on biology is unacceptable.
Yes, and Israel discriminates on the same grounds, as they consider Jews to be a race, in the same way White racists think of white people being a race, and discriminate on those grounds.However, discriminating on belief is another story. That is the foundation of nation-states: groups of people who believe the same thing. Israel gives atomatic citizenship to Jews around the world because of their belief, not because of their race. That is the difference and as such I will conclude again that Israel is not a racist state.
Plenty of Atheist Jews out there, who can get citizenship, so once again you are factually incorrect. If it was a case of belief they would be excluded, but they are not, and as such being Jewish is a racial identity. Also, I take it you don't believe that Anti-semitism is racism by your own bizarre logic then, right?
Now if you look at Israel law of return, they define Jews as a racial, as well as religious identity, so your claims are once again completely false, and Israel is a racist state:Law of Return 5710-1950
--SNIP--
4B. For the purposes of this Law, "Jew" means a person who was born of a Jewish mother or has become converted to Judaism and who is not a member of another religion."
--SNIP--
The above is also a racial definition, so the basis of a Jewish state is no different than a white state. Also, hatred against Jews is defined as racism, so you entire argument is the same old obfuscation, that is often used to try and defend Israels racism.
Also, even if you were right, bigotry is no better than racism. Israel treatment of the Palestinian is simply indefensible, and not amount of obfuscation will change this.0 -
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Gladly, in order to build a state you must secure it first. Then you can impliment your laws. I do not agree with Israel doing this.
...firstly, I take it that you believe that Israel is securing land for itself in the OT, going on that statement.
Secondly - Israel can and does implement its laws on its own citizens in the OT, and has a form of martial law - one without the protections of the Geneva convention - for the Palestinian population. There is also a seperate set of regulations and procedures with regards to building, land, use of resources etc.Surely your not naive enough to think that the suicide bombers just woke up one morning and decided not to bomb Israel anymore...
There was an agreement amongst the various groups and a public announcement.Maybe if Hamas withdrew (actually it could start by recognising Israel) its intent to destroy Israel then the wall could come down...
You realise the wall isn't just restricted to around and near Gaza.....?Besides the golan heights, Israel has not taken any land which was not given to it when transjordan was split...
...actually it's annexed Arab East Jerusalem by act of the Knesset. The wall effectively annexes parts of Gaza and the West Bank.0 -
Suffice to say that the State of Israel and the settlers are separate entities and Israel has already shown in the past that it would forcibly remove Israeli settlers. Israel does not hold genocidal intentions towards Palestine whereas hams has in its foundation document declared its intentiosn to destroy Israel.
References and quotations are available and have already been posted.
Hamas is also allied with iran which has expressed its desire to destroy Israel.
The settlers are known the world over to be the State of Israel's "pioneers". They are offered subsidized housing, even free housing when they manage to get Palestinians out and take over their homes. They are allowed to arm themselves to the teeth with Israeli military weapons . They are protected by the IDF and the Israeli Police. The illegal squatters can seemingly kill Palestinians with impunity, torch their means of making a living, the olive groves and the most sinister development in the last few months is burning mosques. Please stop with the propaganda as all this information is freely available all over the internet and it just makes you look unreliable as a source of what is really happening on the ground in the OT.
In 2006 Hamas offered a truce, and in doing so to de facto recognise Israel.
It was ignored. The reason it was ignored is that without conflict and the constant excuses of " security" Israel would have no excuse to continue stealing land and getting welfare handouts from the US.
http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/news/in-2006-letter-to-bush-haniyeh-offered-compromise-with-israel-1.2572130 -
A rocket was fired just ten ago: http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3886619,00.html it is not "simply untrue. Like I said there has been no halt in rocket fire for substantial periods of time.Simply untrue:
Four Gaza factions halt rocket fire, in bow to Hamas
What I claimed stands. Your opinion is your opinion.No, he is just has a "personal responsibility" for the deaths of 1000's of dead civilians, who were brutally butchered. I fail to see how he is some how better than Hamas, but then dead Palestinians never bothered Israel.
If the IDF wanted to stop them they could, simple as. I have no doubt that tabs are kept on who is coming and going, infrared can easily detect dense material used for bombs. Cheaper labour I presume. But thats just my opinion.Surely the fact that 1000's of Palestinians getting into Israel illegally shows that if a suicide bomber wanted to enter Israel, that they could do so. You have claimed the wall stops suicide attackers entering Israel, and the fact is that Palestinians enter Israel illegally in there 1000's, so your claims is provable false:
Under cover of the night: Palestinian ghost workers in Israel
The fact is that if a suicide bomber wanted to attack Israel, they could so, as Palestinians are capable of entering Israel illegally.
In that case they just took it from Jordan. But Jordan doesn't seem to have an issue about it. Indeed they actively helped Israel by brutally crushing palestinians harder than Israel ever did.Israel wasn't actually given any land ever, you see UN General Assembly resolutions are non-binding. Israel took the land using violence. You see Israel version of events is a lie.
My claims have no factual basis! Are you serious? You do not accept that people in Africa evolved darker skin to protect them from the sun? Or that we in Ireland have some of the whitest skin to obsorb as much vitimin D as possible? I never said we were separate species, just that people in different places adapted to their surroundings. Darwin is still turning.Please read up on the Human Genome project. To put is simply, you are once again factually incorrect:
DNA Sequencing and Sequence Variation
As can be seen in the link, Human Beings are basically the same regardless of race. To put it simply, your claims have no factually basis, and have long ago been dis proven.
Actually what fact did I give that is wrong?
People's behaviour towards race is a social construct.The above works just fine with race being a social construct, which is an established fact.
Race itself is so blindingly biological i cannot believe we are even discussing it.
I'm sure there are athiests who get Israeli citizenship. They still have to show their Jewish roots to get it though. Once again showing it is based on religion.Yes, and Israel discriminates on the same grounds, as they consider Jews to be a race, in the same way White racists think of white people being a race, and discriminate on those grounds.
Plenty of Atheist Jews out there, who can get citizenship, so once again you are factually incorrect. If it was a case of belief they would be excluded, but they are not, and as such being Jewish is a racial identity. Also, I take it you don't believe that Anti-semitism is racism by your own bizarre logic then, right?
Its not bizzare, anti-semitism is a form of religious persecution. its very simple: discrimination on racial grounds=racism, discrimination on religious grounds=religious discrimination.
Proving my point in fact that you must have the latter, or prove connection to the latter. The former comes with it. But it is not based on any specific biological requirements meaning it is not based on race. You do not need a subscription for the oxford english dictionary, you should look it up again.Now if you look at Israel law of return, they define Jews as a racial, as well as religious identity, so your claims are once again completely false, and Israel is a racist state:
Wrongly so.The above is also a racial definition, so the basis of a Jewish state is no different than a white state. Also, hatred against Jews is defined as racism, so you entire argument is the same old obfuscation, that is often used to try and defend Israels racism.
I'm not the one arguing it is a racist state.Also, even if you were right, bigotry is no better than racism. Israel treatment of the Palestinian is simply indefensible, and not amount of obfuscation will change this.0 -
There is one absolutely huge difference. Israel does not teach this kind of behaviour to pre-school children:SS can you explain these quotes to me. It seems to me that there is very little difference in the tone and intent of these to anything said by the extremists on the other side.
" [The Palestinians are] beasts walking on two legs." Menahim Begin,
speech to the Knesset, quoted in Amnon Kapeliouk, "Begin and the
Beasts". New Statesman, 25 June 1982.
"When we have settled the land, all the Arabs will be able to do
about it will be to scurry around like drugged cockroaches in a bottle."
Raphael Eitan, Chief of Staff of the Israeli Defence Forces, New York
Times, 14 April 1983.
"The thesis that the danger of genocide was hanging over us in June
1967 and that Israel was fighting for its physical existence is only
bluff, which was born and developed after the war." Israeli General
Matityahu Peled, Ha'aretz, 19 March 1972.
"We have to kill all the Palestinians unless they are resigned to
live here as slaves." Chairman Heilbrun of the Committee for the Re-election of General Shlomo Lahat, the mayor of Tel Aviv, October 1983.
"We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation,
and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab
population." Israel Koenig, "The Koenig Memorandum"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gi-c6lbFGC40 -
There is one absolutely huge difference. Israel does not teach this kind of behaviour to pre-school children:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gi-c6lbFGC4
There is no difference.
The Talmud teaches that all Gentiles are subhuman, that it is alright to steal from and kill them.
"Yebamoth 98a. All gentile children are animals.
Abodah Zarah 36b. Gentile girls are in a state of niddah (filth) from birth.
Sanhedrin 57a . When a Jew murders a gentile ("Cuthean"), there will be no death penalty. What a Jew steals from a gentile he may keep.
Baba Kamma 37b. The gentiles are outside the protection of the law and God has "exposed their money to Israel."
Baba Kamma 113a. Jews may use lies ("subterfuges") to circumvent a Gentile."
http://www.revisionisthistory.org/talmudtruth.html
Israeli Textbooks and Children’s Literature Promote Racism and Hatred Toward Palestinians and Arabs
http://www.washington-report.org/backissues/0999/9909019.html0 -
A rocket was fired just ten ago: http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3886619,00.html it is not "simply untrue. Like I said there has been no halt in rocket fire for substantial periods of time.Israel suffers first rocket attack casualty since Gaza war
For 14 months after the Gaza war, the Israel border was relatively calm. Today's rocket attack will put pressure on Israel for a stepped-up military response at a time when the US is pushing for peace moves.
A Palestinian rocket fired from the Gaza Strip into Israel Thursday claimed the first fatality in Israel since it launched the Gaza war last year to shut down Hamas rocket attacks.
The attack killed a Thai guest worker in the agricultural village of Netiv Haasarah, which is just north of the border with the Gaza Strip. An unknown Gazan group, Ansar al-Sunna, claimed responsibility for the attack, Reuters reported.
"It doesn't matter what organization takes responsibility for the fire,'' said Israel's Deputy Defense Minister Matan Vilnai. "Israel isn't interested in a military confrontation, but it won't allow its residents to be shot at.''
The fatality will put pressure on Israel for a stepped-up military response in Gaza. It comes at a time when the US is pushing Israel to make gestures to the Palestinian Authority on reining in building in Jerusalem in order to get peace negotiations restarted. It could also be the first test of Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's policy toward Hamas since he took office.
Severe clashes in Jerusalem
The attack comes two days after the worst Palestinian-Israeli clashes in Jerusalem in years. Hamas, which controls Gaza, called on Palestinians to initiate a new uprising and to take up arms against Israel in response to allegations of a plot to destroy Muslim holy sites in Jerusalem's Old City.
Israel launched a punishing offensive on the Gaza Strip last year to silence rocket fire. The war left about 1,400 Palestinians and a dozen Israelis dead.
Since the war, the border region has been relatively calm. Towns in southern Israel have begun to rebuild. Israel continues to enforce an economic blockade around the Gaza Strip and has warned that Hamas is rearming itself with longer-range and more powerful rockets.
The attack "damages the position of the Palestinians because Hamas will be seen more and more as an element of instability, and it will strengthen the voice of the right in Israel that whatever we do with the PLO [Palestine Liberation Organization] we will always have Hamas threatening us,'' said Meir Javedanfar, a Middle East expert based in Tel Aviv.
click here for full article
Again, your statement is untrue. There have been prolonged periods, with little or not rocket fire from Gaza.What I claimed stands. Your opinion is your opinion.
No, I stated fact about the actions of people Israels electorate have elected, and shown there leaders to be no better than the Palestinians. Sorry, but the reprehensible nature of many of Israel leaders cannot just be swept under the rug.If the IDF wanted to stop them they could, simple as. I have no doubt that tabs are kept on who is coming and going, infrared can easily detect dense material used for bombs. Cheaper labour I presume. But thats just my opinion.
Again, you have every right to your opinion, but not your own facts. To put it simply, we know for a fact that Palestinians can get into Israel illegally. What your saying has no basis in fact, to put it simply.In that case they just took it from Jordan. But Jordan doesn't seem to have an issue about it. Indeed they actively helped Israel by brutally crushing palestinians harder than Israel ever did.
What Jordan did, isn't the current topic. Israel took the land from the pre-exisiting indigenous populace via ethnic cleansing.My claims have no factual basis! Are you serious? You do not accept that people in Africa evolved darker skin to protect them from the sun? Or that we in Ireland have some of the whitest skin to obsorb as much vitimin D as possible? I never said we were separate species, just that people in different places adapted to their surroundings. Darwin is still turning.
Actually what fact did I give that is wrong?
People's behaviour towards race is a social construct.
Race itself is so blindingly biological i cannot believe we are even discussing i
Your claims are getting funnier and funnier. Are you denying the findings of the Human Genome project? Look get back to me when you can back up your claims with some scientific evidence. I already provided my evidence in the form of a link to the Human Genome project, which you ignore for some bizarre reason. Suffice to say that all Humans are 99% the same, regardless of race. This is a proven fact. Get back to me, when you can disprove this.
No, race is not biological, and stating something is true does not make it so. Now show me some scientific evidence to support you nonsensical claims, and you also need to debunk the Human Genome projects findings while your at it btw.I'm sure there are athiests who get Israeli citizenship. They still have to show their Jewish roots to get it though. Once again showing it is based on religion.
You are making no sense what so ever here. How can it be based on Religion if there atheists. Sorry, but what your saying is utterly nonsensical.Its not bizzare, anti-semitism is a form of religious persecution. its very simple: discrimination on racial grounds=racism, discrimination on religious grounds=religious discrimination.
Proving my point in fact that you must have the latter, or prove connection to the latter. The former comes with it. But it is not based on any specific biological requirements meaning it is not based on race. You do not need a subscription for the oxford english dictionary, you should look it up again.
Wrongly so.
I'm not the one arguing it is a racist state.
So you are actually arguing that antisemitism is not racism? Well, that is a new one right there.
The fact still remains, Israel considers Jews to be a race, and its laws are based around this consideration, hence Israel is racist, and even if what you say is true, a bigoted state is no better than a racist one. Either way, Israel treatment of the Palestinians is unacceptable.0 -
We can sit here all night giving examples of nasty things written in old books. It won't achieve anything.There is no difference.
The Talmud teaches that all Gentiles are subhuman, that it is alright to steal from and kill them.
"Yebamoth 98a. All gentile children are animals.
Abodah Zarah 36b. Gentile girls are in a state of niddah (filth) from birth.
Sanhedrin 57a . When a Jew murders a gentile ("Cuthean"), there will be no death penalty. What a Jew steals from a gentile he may keep.
Baba Kamma 37b. The gentiles are outside the protection of the law and God has "exposed their money to Israel."
Baba Kamma 113a. Jews may use lies ("subterfuges") to circumvent a Gentile."
http://www.revisionisthistory.org/talmudtruth.html
Israeli Textbooks and Children’s Literature Promote Racism and Hatred Toward Palestinians and Arabs
http://www.washington-report.org/backissues/0999/9909019.html
The media is not 100% state controlled in Israel, it is in Gaza pretty much. In Israel, people have the availability of other sources of info so even if they are confronted with nasty stuff that you pointed out they have alternative views too. They do not have that in Gaza.
Most citings in that article are quite old: "The early textbooks tended to describe acts of Arabs as hostile, deviant, cruel, immoral, unfair, with the intention to hurt Jews and to annihilate the State of Israel."
Show me an Irish history book that doesnt portray the British like that!
Also can you find an example on par with the one I showed you? I think you'll find it quite difficult.0 -
There is one absolutely huge difference. Israel does not teach this kind of behaviour to pre-school children:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gi-c6lbFGC4
Once again simply untrue:Palestinians capture violence of Israeli occupation on video
In a graphic and hard-hitting film Peter Beaumont speaks to Palestinians filming abuse from settlers and Israeli armed forces
Video Link
An Israeli child from a far-right settler group in the West Bank city of Hebron hurls a stone up the stairs of a Palestinian family close to their settlement and shouts: "I will exterminate you." Another spits towards the same family.
Click here for full article
Watch the video, it clearly shows your claim to be incorrect. Some Israeli's like some Palestinians teach there children hatred from a early age. To claim that only Palestinians do so, is another blatantly factually inaccurate claim.0 -
We can sit here all night giving examples of nasty things written in old books. It won't achieve anything. I'm surprised at you calling the Talmud, the Holiest book in Judaism " an old book". Aren't children taught to live by the Talmud from and early age ?
The media is not 100% state controlled in Israel, it is in Gaza pretty much. In Israel, people have the availability of other sources of info so even if they are confronted with nasty stuff that you pointed out they have alternative views too. They do not have that in Gaza.
Most citings in that article are quite old: "The early textbooks tended to describe acts of Arabs as hostile, deviant, cruel, immoral, unfair, with the intention to hurt Jews and to annihilate the State of Israel."
Show me an Irish history book that doesnt portray the British like that!
Also can you find an example on par with the one I showed you? I think you'll find it quite difficult.
You made a statement about Palestinians hating Jews/ Israelis. I gave you examples of how Israelis are just as bad. It won't change anything but gives balance to anyone reading this.
The military censor has to pass most articles that appear on online editions of the Israeli newspapers.
Israel is no longer a shining example of press freedom and freedom of speech in the Middle East.
http://www.haaretz.com/news/israel-ranks-low-for-freedom-of-press-after-gaza-war-media-ban-1.5765
It would be difficult for Gazans to access to anything be it information, electricty, water, homes etc. israel's 3 year seige and complete blockade of Gaza sees to that.
Examples of Israeli children taught to hate, there's quite a few examples all over YouTube while the inglorious IDf stands by and does nothing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DaiUE-wkE4U&feature=related0 -
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We can sit here all night giving examples of nasty things written in old books. It won't achieve anything.
The media is not 100% state controlled in Israel, it is in Gaza pretty much. In Israel, people have the availability of other sources of info so even if they are confronted with nasty stuff that you pointed out they have alternative views too. They do not have that in Gaza.
Most citings in that article are quite old: "The early textbooks tended to describe acts of Arabs as hostile, deviant, cruel, immoral, unfair, with the intention to hurt Jews and to annihilate the State of Israel."
Show me an Irish history book that doesnt portray the British like that!
Also can you find an example on par with the one I showed you? I think you'll find it quite difficult.
You made a statement about Palestinians hating Jews/ Israelis. I gave you examples of how Israelis are just as bad. It won't change anything but gives balance to anyone reading this. I'm surprised at you calling the Talmud "just "an old book". It is THE holiest book in Judaism and aren't children taught to follow it's teachings from an early age ?
The military censor has to pass most articles that appear on online editions of the Israeli newspapers.
Israel is no longer a shining example of press freedom and freedom of speech in the Middle East.
http://www.haaretz.com/news/israel-ranks-low-for-freedom-of-press-after-gaza-war-media-ban-1.5765
It would be difficult for Gazans to access to anything be it information, electricty, water, homes etc. israel's 3 year seige and complete blockade of Gaza sees to that.
Examples of Israeli children taught to hate, there's quite a few examples all over YouTube while the inglorious IDf stands by and does nothing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DaiUE-wkE4U&feature=related0
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