Prostitution

Dudess · 15-09-2009 1:02am

I'm referring solely to those women who wind up working in the grimmer corners of the industry - because there aren't any other options for them, hence my use of the phrase "they have no choice". I'm more speculating than stating btw - I'm not well researched on this issue.

AARRRGH · 15-09-2009 1:04am

minidazzler wrote: »

Some prostitutes. Street walkers make SFA, and are lucky if every john pays them.

Not true. They make a couple of hundred per night.

I know one ex street walker.

Amazotheamazing wrote:

Do you have figures to back that up?

I can only tell you the girls I know (although just ask a prostitute how much she charges and you'll see for yourself) but they were making thousands per week. One girl was making 1200 per day.

When you are making that sort of money (and this is the reality of prostitution which no one wants to know) it becomes very hard to leave the industry. Why would you work in a "normal" job when you can make more than your monthly salary in a week?

Amazotheamazing · 15-09-2009 1:08am

AARRRGH wrote: »

I can only tell you the girls I know (although just ask a prostitute how much she charges and you'll see for yourself) but they were making thousands per week. One girl was making 1200 per day.

but do you think she is the average for a prostitute or the high end exception?

AARRRGH · 15-09-2009 1:14am

Dudess wrote: »

I'm referring solely to those women who wind up working in the grimmer corners of the industry - because there aren't any other options for them, hence my use of the phrase "they have no choice". I'm more speculating than stating btw - I'm not well researched on this issue.

I agree that if you have a heroin problem, don't have an education, and in general don't want to be a criminal, the only way you can earn a lot of money for your habit is via prostitution.

However... they still have to choose to work as a prostitute. I understand they have extremely limited choices, but it is still a choice, so really, they are not being forced. Also, instead of choosing to work as a prostitute, they could choose to sort out their heroin problem. Although I'm not saying that's easy, of course.

Unrelated, but I personally think the focus should be on treating the cause (heroin) rather than the symptoms (prostitution). Anti-prostitution groups should become anti-drugs groups; focussing on prostitution won't get them anywhere.

AARRRGH · 15-09-2009 1:18am

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

but do you think she is the average for a prostitute or the high end exception?

The 1200 one was doing very well for herself. But she marketed herself very well as she knew her time was running out (she's in her 50's.)

But even if you think about a relatively unsuccessful escort who sees two clients per week for two hours work in total - that's around €500 - €600 tax free per week. A street prostitute would be around half that.

Dudess · 15-09-2009 1:22am

I'm going to have to agree to disagree with you - I'd have a broader definition of the term "force". I agree, nobody's literally putting a gun to the person's head, but circumstances are forcing them into prostitution. And perhaps in some cases, individuals do coerce them into selling themselves.

And again, this is only in the context of the murkier side of the sex industry - which is a different world to that of the escort.

AARRRGH · 15-09-2009 1:28am

Dudess wrote: »

I'm going to have to agree to disagree with you - I'd have a broader definition of the term "force". I agree, nobody's literally putting a gun to the person's head, but circumstances are forcing them into prostitution. And perhaps in some cases, individuals do coerce them into selling themselves.

I think the problem is like the difference between a mentally healthy and a mentally unhealthy person. A mentally healthy person will recognise they have a problem (e.g. mild depression) and do something about it, whereas the mentally unhealthy person may not recognise the problem and certainly won't have the strength to sort it out.

The "forced" issue is sort of the same. I know if I personally was in a situation with few choices, I would choose the best option, which would be to get my life together. But that's just me, I've always been good at doing what's best for me. So in that respect I have a problem accepting that people who choose the worst option have no choice, when in fact that are just making a bad choice.

So the woman who chooses to work as a prostitute to feed her drug problem instead of choosing to sort out her drug problem, I see that as a bad choice rather than a forced choice.

If ya get me...

But also, people associate chains and kidnapping and all sorts of crap with "forced", so I just hate that word in respect to prostitution.

SeekUp · 15-09-2009 1:37am

Nothingcompares wrote: »

I really don't know what I'd say if I had a conversation with a prostitute? Would I sympathize with her for having, in my opinion, the worst job in the world? Would that be condascending? I certainly wouldn't patronise her with advice. Nor would I assume her life is a misery.

Why wouldn't you just chat to her like anyone else, without feeling that you had to choose what you said based on how you felt about her profession?

AARRRGH wrote: »

When you are making that sort of money (and this is the reality of prostitution which no one wants to know) it becomes very hard to leave the industry. Why would you work in a "normal" job when you can make more than your monthly salary in a week?

I think this is a better question, tbh. I would guess that many of us here have never been in a situation where we felt that we had to sell our bodies for whatever reason. Of course most of us wouldn't choose prostitution from where we sit, not least of all because of the way we've been taught to think about sex. So AARRRGH, to answer your question -- I don't know if I'd want to get out of it. Let's say that I chose it because things were tight and it was a quick way to make easy money. Let's say that I had been doing it for a while and while I wasn't particularly proud of what I did for a living, I was as safe as I could possibly be and was able to support myself while still having money left over for extras. Let's say that I worked for no one but myself and didn't really have many marketable skills for a more conventional job. I think it would be really really hard to leave my lifestyle for work as a waitress, or even an office job. As someone mentioned, it's also often about desensitization. And if I was used to having sex with strangers, if I had gotten past the point of holding a conventional attitude toward sex, I don't know that I would leave it.

Vulture · 15-09-2009 6:53am

To answer the question,I'm male so it does not really apply but no i would not be a prostitute nor would I like anyone I'm friends with to be one.

In reply to all the in between stuff.
They are many varying levels of prostiution from the high end ones someone mentioned earlier to the 40 going on 60 street walkers you drive past on street corners and think to yourself who the hell would want to dip their wick in that.

Yes I think it should be legalised.
Not just on the grounds that it's been around for ever and been legal through out most of history. The first recorded mention of it being found from 18th Century BCE in a legal document pertaining to her rights. Prostution is still legal in many countries around the world or if illegal is accepted and a blind eye turned to it ("while it became legal under the Swedish model to sell sex, it remained illegal to buy sex or to pander prostitutes.")
For more on the history of Prostitution check out ->
http://civilliberty.about.com/od/gendersexuality/tp/History-of-Prostitution.htm
or just go to wiki if you like.
I don't think legalization will solve all the problems of abuse, murder, drugs etc I'm sure all those problems will find a way to continue even if prostution is legalised. But it will provide more safety for the women involved and give them some legal recourse if their job is not a crime.

A terrible comparison I'm going to get slated for will be to compare legal boxing/warehouse fighting with Prostution/illegal prostution.

Boxing/warehouse fighting.
Ever since man learned how to kick the crap out of each other people have been watching and enjoying. Keep it legal and fighters who are injured have paid their taxes and can get their medical covered because their productive members of socity. Warehouse fighters are screwed they can get badly injured or even killed or their opponent cheat and use a weapon or illegal performance enhancing drugs and the law won't be involved because the whole thing was illegal to begin with.
Prostution/illegal prostution.
With illegal prostution women have no recourse if they are abused, robbed exploited etc and even worse they can have it done to them multiple times by the same person. Legalise it and they can at least call the cops.

I'm not saying prostution is a good thing but it's going to be around, you cant get rid of it so why not take steps to protect the women being exploited. Use some of the tax money generated to educate the women, give them options to get out if they want to. With a bit of imagination and the money generated the women who don't want to be in that industry could have a chance to get out. You can't solve all the problems that will follow prostution but if lives can be saved and the people involved given more options how is that a bad thing?

Dragan · 15-09-2009 10:37am

Nothingcompares wrote: »

I think any of the heterosexual lads here talking about being a male escort should snap out of that fantasy world. I think, just my personal opinion, if you want to get a better idea conceptually is to ask yourself as a man would you be a gay prostitute? ('logistical' issues aside).

Agreed. I knew one guy who went the male escort route. It was sheers desperation, he needed a lot of money, and fast. He was a good looking dude too, intelligent, doing well in college, grounded and down to earth.

I've never seen anyone change so fast, or lose hope for humanity so quickly.

AARRRGH · 15-09-2009 10:55am

Dragan wrote: »

Agreed. I knew one guy who went the male escort route. It was sheers desperation, he needed a lot of money, and fast. He was a good looking dude too, intelligent, doing well in college, grounded and down to earth.

I've never seen anyone change so fast, or lose hope for humanity so quickly.

Yeah, I don't think anyone thinks it's an easy job, and certainly most people aren't going to like doing it.

Our current policy of hoping it will go away is never going to work, so the government needs to become realists and start regulating the industry. They could implement programmes to help the women such as regular counselling, licensed premises where there is guaranteed safety, free regular health checks, drugs addiction services, etc.

There really is no reason for women to be working the streets. They could easily be helped work in a safer, cleaner environment, and if they have any problems, they could be tackled instead of waiting for them to cause more misery.

There also needs to be proper education or a total rethink about sex so people stop feeling guilty about it or thinking it's dirty. Maybe then people (prostitutes & punters) wouldn't have to hide in the shadows.

Zee Deveel · 15-09-2009 11:37am

Interesting thread. I hummed and hawed about contributing to this one, but here goes anyway.

Orla K wrote: »

Alright, if it were legal and it was a socially acceptable job,

Socially acceptable in what circles? Can't picture my mother ever ever ever being okay with the concept of me becoming involved in this industry, but i know I've several friends who would be nothing but supportive.

seen as something someone would do as a part time job not as a career.

Why the differentiation?

Would you do it if you needed the extra cash

Honestly, yes. In a desperate situation, in desperate circumstances, yes. Have, in the past, exchanged sexual favours and that stuff in exchange for money/shelter. Did not enjoy one moment of it, but did it because it felt like the best option I had at the time. It was initially someone i knew (and disliked), but he would let me know if/when he had a 'friend who was interested'.

I like to think I'm in a position whereby I'll have other means/resources so that I'll never have to fall back on anything like that again, but I know that life can throw all sorts of things at you, and that you can never be too sure.

Dudess wrote: »

I think that's a little too black and white - a person can work as a prostitute and really, really not want to do it, but feel obliged to do so because they have no choice...

Okay, you've already sort of had this one out during the rest of the thread, but a good friend of mine got into it through a need to support her's and her boyfriend's drug habit. Had initially been dealing drugs, until their dealers kidnapped her boyfriend and demanded drugs/money from them, which they didn't have. She eventually got money from friends and got her boyfriend back and decided at that point that it was time to get out of dealing, but with a need to support the habit still, turned to prostitution. To her, there was a choice, but very, very limited, and prostitution was the better option she saw available in her situation. She still enjoyed life, went out with her friends and kept work and recreational time very separate. I would say that her attitude to men is somewhat jaded. She'll stand no nonsense from any, and drunk or not, there is no touchy-feely leering.

AARRRGH wrote: »

Unrelated, but I personally think the focus should be on treating the cause (heroin) rather than the symptoms (prostitution). Anti-prostitution groups should become anti-drugs groups; focussing on prostitution won't get them anywhere.

Thoroughly agree. Though no harm in pointing out that there's no point in singling out heroin. Plenty of alternatives out there

I'm all for the legalisation of prostitution and regulation of the industry.

It is not a last resort for everybody, I acknowledge that.

Emme · 15-09-2009 1:06pm

kickoutthejams wrote: »

That's exactly it though;
Few dream of being cleaners, secretaries, dish-washers etc, but these are still things that people do.

Exactly. You might make more money as an escort if you had the emotional constitution for it, but some of us work in more menial jobs so we can uphold our morals. Morals are purely personal and we shouldn't impose them on others. And who knows, a cleaner might make as much money as an escort at the end of the day. At least your career as a cleaner doesn't stop when your youth fades away.

Emme · 15-09-2009 1:13pm

AARRRGH wrote: »

The 1200 one was doing very well for herself. But she marketed herself very well as she knew her time was running out (she's in her 50's.)
.

She was an escort in her 50s? :eek: You've got to be joking. I didn't think any man would pay for sex with a woman who looked over 25. If attractive intelligent women in their 30s up can't get dates why would men pay to sleep with an older woman unless it's some sick fantasy?

panda100 · 15-09-2009 1:29pm

stovelid wrote: »

As you mentioned the site, I just had a look at Escort Ireland.

Do you mind outlining how rates of between 100-150 quid for thirty minutes of sex are indicative of a last-resort refuge from "addiction or poverty"?

Fair enough that there are genuine cases of street prostitutes with addiction issues, but why on earth are you using sites like that as a credible argument?

Escort Ireland is Ireland's biggest escort website, where all the agency's and independent escorts advertise.
There many Irish women on there??
There is 6 Irish women advertising as escorts out of a country of 4 million people.

The vast majority of escorts in Ireland are Eastern European,South American and African. A quick scan of the nationalities on the escorts profiles will show you this.

If prostitution was a career that so many people would 'chose' then why so few Irish women?Why so many women from countries where the majority of people live in poverty?

Theres one beautiful,popular women on Escort Ireland called Miss Rio Di Janoiro, a 19 year old girl from Brazil. I am sure when she was growing up it was not her dream to be giving blowjobs or anal sex to some Irish guy.
The reason there is such few Irish women working as escorts is fortunatly during the Celtic Tiger we could afford to choose well paid,decent jobs that do not have the serious implications that working as an escort does.
I just dont think its a profession that anyone decides to go into unless they really need money and then once in that profession just would find it very difficult to leave.

As a normal 26 year old women with a healthy attitude to sex and who enjoys sex I could only sell my body If i was desperatly,desperatly stuck for money and even then I dont think I could do it. I have yet to see any evidence on the contrary that Irish women would willingly want do this as a career?All the men and women on here so far have said they couldnt/wouldnt do it?

AARRRGH wrote: »

Sorry, I think we're misunderstanding each other somewhat. I am not saying every encounter starts as a date (most don't), I am saying escorts have lots of regular customers who they spend a bit of time with in date-like situations. For example, one girl goes on weekends away with a guy, even though he only pays her for 2 or 3 hours.

Oh yes I'm sure this does happen, but I just find this equally as sad. There is without a doubt men out there who hire escorts for friendship,warmth and human contact. There are so many single women out there spending lonely,frustrated nights alone. That men feel they have to pay a women to spend time with them is a horrible indicment of our society. I do not see men hiring escorts as dates as a positive thing for either gender.

AARRRGH wrote: »

There also needs to be proper education or a total rethink about sex so people stop feeling guilty about it or thinking it's dirty. Maybe then people (prostitutes & punters) wouldn't have to hide in the shadows.

I completely agree that our societys attitude to sex has to change but I absolutely disagree that prostitution is a healthy attitude to sex.

Prostitution does make sex 'dirty' because the womens body is being used as a commodity and anything that is regularly sold as a commodity begins to cheapen in value after a while.
Also, the emphasis out there in society is constantly on male sexual gratification being the most important factor. Prostitution absolutely perpetuates this myth that men need sex more than women and that men have no other choice but to respond to their sexual urges.Men are socialised to have sexual desires and feel entitled to have those needs met, women are socialised to meet these desires and conform to the narrow definitions of female sexuality that is out there. Prostitution just reinforces this and keeps us all sexually repressed so that womens sexuality is neatly packaged to be consumed by men.

Legalising prostition will not suddenly radically alter societys sexually conservative attitudes to sex and sexual identity. I think men and women need to stop seeing women as just sex objects and instead really relate to each other as real,feeling and sexual beings. Maybe then men wont have to pay 19 year olds from Brazil to go on dates with them.

panda100 · 15-09-2009 1:44pm

Emme wrote: »

She was an escort in her 50s? :eek: You've got to be joking. I didn't think any man would pay for sex with a woman who looked over 25. If attractive intelligent women in their 30s up can't get dates why would men pay to sleep with an older woman unless it's some sick fantasy?

Uhh why is it a sick fantasy?
What is sick is that people think that women who look over 25 are somewhat sexually undesirable?

Young and beautiful does not equate to good in bed. An older women means more experience and sexual confidence, Id definitely prefer that If I was hiring someone for sex.

b3t4 · 15-09-2009 2:25pm

Would I prostitute myself? No.

I lived in NZ for over a year and prostitution is legal over there, as are brothels. It's taxed and all that. And shockingly enough the country hasn't fallen into an abish. They're just getting on with things and looking after the vunerable in their society.

I think that generally the people who'd end up prostituting themselves are vunerable and need to be protected and looked after. I certainly don't think is a good sign of a society when we turn our backs on those that might need us the most.

I'd clasify these people as vunerable as when the going is good, very, very, very few people would concider prostituion.

I think that legalising it/regulating it makes it safer for the reciever and the giver. Prostitutes can report crimes easier, there's a paper trail of his/her clients should anything happen and the police will not bang them up in prison along with the perpitraers of the crime.

While I was in NZ, a prostitute went missing and was found dead, the police were able to contact all her clients as there was a paper trail. Another time, a brothel was raided over a weekend and the manager of the brothel was on tv explaining what happened and the police were working with them to find the culprits. A tv programme over there, similar to the UK's watchdog, sent an undercover girl to known brothels to try and get signed up. The brothels would not have anything to do with her until she could proove that she was over eighteen.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prostitution_in_New_Zealand

I found it all very refreshing and enlightened.

Emme · 15-09-2009 2:32pm

panda100 wrote: »

Uhh why is it a sick fantasy?
What is sick is that people think that women who look over 25 are somewhat sexually undesirable?

Young and beautiful does not equate to good in bed. An older women means more experience and sexual confidence, Id definitely prefer that If I was hiring someone for sex.

Panda, you said yourself in a previous post that men are paying women for sex while single women are on their own. Most of these single women, many very attractive, would be 35 and older. Older women aren't really appreciated in English speaking cultures like Ireland, the UK and the USA, but in France they're more in demand. My slightly twisted logic was that if older single women, regardless of attractiveness or intelligence, cannot get a date, why would a man want to PAY an older woman for sex? He could get a date with a nice older woman no problem, but then maybe he doesn't want a "nice" woman of any age.

I dunno, maybe when a man is paying for sex he feels more in control of the situation, he pays the piper and calls the tune so to speak. If he met a woman in a normal social situation he couldn't do that, he'd have to consider her needs as well. And therein lies the problem with escorts, it's all to do with men having control over the female body they hire. I read somewhere that a man doesn't pay a prostitute for sex as he could get that anywhere, he pays to walk away from her without any commitment afterwards. Chilling

AARRRGH · 15-09-2009 2:36pm

panda100 wrote: »

Prostitution does make sex 'dirty' because the womens body is being used as a commodity and anything that is regularly sold as a commodity begins to cheapen in value after a while.

With that attitude you'll never be able to have a balanced view on the topic, and tbh cannot be taken seriously.

Consensual sex is never "dirty".

panda100 wrote:

If prostitution was a career that so many people would 'chose' then why so few Irish women?

There are thousands of Irish women who have chosen to work as prostitutes.

Haru · 15-09-2009 3:29pm

I think this is a difficult question. As far as I'm concerned, as long as I can avoid prostitution, I definitely will. I already don't like one night stands, so I can't imagine myself having one with a potential 60 y.old guy for money. Yuck.

However, I can understand why some people would choose prostitution. I'll take students as an example because that's the community I know the most (being one myself). Considering how hard it becomes to find a job (even a part time one) and considering the living expenses for a year (I'm a reasonnable/normal student, so I'm basing myself on my own fees) I find it sometimes pretty hard to gather enough money in time for the university fees or to live decently. Thank god, my parents are still helping me with that, but it's not everyone's case. Prostitution among students seems to become more and more important, which is rather worrying and not everyone gets a loan as well those days.

Someone mentionned there were only like 6 Irish escorts on a website... yeah but what about websites like gumtree, where you can anonymously put an ad for a one night stand or whatever ? I know that if I had to prostitute myself, I'd rather die than admit it and tell it to people I know, especially my parents, so I don't think I'd go through a website using a picture of myself, or something that could help people recognize me.

I'm rather in favor of legalised prostitution too. I think that would at least reduce the danger for women/men prostituting themselves. I took a look at the escort site people were talking about here and kinda got really scared when I saw how many ads were warning escorts about dangerous guys or women getting beaten in such or such area.

AARRRGH · 15-09-2009 4:02pm

I never actually answered the question, sorry. :pac:

Orla K wrote: »

Alright, if it were legal and it was a socially acceptable job, seen as something someone would do as a part time job not as a career. And the risk of STIs were minimal. Would you do it if you needed the extra cash (stereotype but for example throughout college)? And why/why not?

I don't think I could do it. I'm quite an honest person so I would have difficulty pretending I find the women attractive and/or am enjoying myself. I don't think that would be fair on the women or me.

I'm a fairly optimistic/resourceful guy though so I reckon I would be able to figure out an alternative way to earn money.

candy-gal1 · 15-09-2009 4:07pm

no i dont think so, for the main reason being im now with my soulmate-love of my life and that will never change

, but also because i dont think imo that you could ever have a relationship after doing something like that even if u were completely finished with that part of your life

lyndak082 · 15-09-2009 4:11pm

well i dont really know if id do it. BUT it could be seen as a talent. some girls are good at it some are not! sooo if ur gud at something....why not make money from it???;):D:D:D

Dudess · 15-09-2009 8:35pm

Emme wrote: »

She was an escort in her 50s? :eek: You've got to be joking. I didn't think any man would pay for sex with a woman who looked over 25. If attractive intelligent women in their 30s up can't get dates why would men pay to sleep with an older woman unless it's some sick fantasy?

What about the milf fantasy though? And imagine the tricks she'll have perfected...

2 stroke · 16-09-2009 12:41am

Emme wrote: »

I read somewhere that a man doesn't pay a prostitute for sex as he could get that anywhere, he pays to walk away from her without any commitment afterwards.

I have to say that if I were to visit a prostitute, the main attraction would be no chat up/no commitment. There are days that there are so many things that need doing, that it would be great to empty the tanks without all that romance ect.

Piste · 16-09-2009 3:58am

If prostitution were regularised I still don't think I'd do it- I'm too proud. I would want to be on the verge of homelessness or starvation before I'd ever consider it, and even then I think it would mess me up pretty badly. Whenever I was with a new boyfriend I would worry constantly about whether I should tell him about my past and it would always be weighing on my mind. Not for me, thanks!

That said, I would have no problem with it being commercialised. I don't put sex onto a pedestal so if someone wants to cheapen it and commercialise it, that's none of my business.

A little off topic, I don't think I could ever go out with a guy who'd slept with a prostitute. The whole act stinks of desperation, and God knows there's nothing less attractive than desperation.

liah · 16-09-2009 4:32am

Piste wrote: »

A little off topic, I don't think I could ever go out with a guy who'd slept with a prostitute. The whole act stinks of desperation, and God knows there's nothing less attractive than desperation.

I always thought I'd feel the same way tbh but I'm seeing a guy who slept with a prostitute in Amsterdam as part of the "experience" of the city and.. it actually really doesn't bother me all that much. It didn't have anything to do with him being desperate, though, and in fairness it was only once.. I'd probably feel differently if it was a regular thing, or more than once.

Emme · 16-09-2009 10:08am

2 stroke wrote: »

I have to say that if I were to visit a prostitute, the main attraction would be no chat up/no commitment. There are days that there are so many things that need doing, that it would be great to empty the tanks without all that romance ect.

Isn't that what masturbation is for?:rolleyes:

For those of you who wouldn't date a guy who'd been to a prostitute think again, you probably have already! It's amazing the amount of guys who visit prostitutes - it could be the guy sitting next to you on the DART or at work. It isn't desperate guys who go, but normal guys - young guys on a stag weekend, businessmen on trips abroad or just guys like 2 stroke who want sex without the hassle of chatting the girl up. It's the same as the "panic shift" at the end of a Friday or Saturday night when a guy tries to get a girl 5 minutes before closing time, or when he tries to jump into a taxi with her. Sad really, I thought that Homo sapiens had evolved a bit further than that.

minidazzler · 16-09-2009 10:19am

Emme wrote: »

Isn't that what masturbation is for?:rolleyes:

I thought the exact same thing when I read his post!!!

Personally I wouldn't visit prostitutes, there are easier and cheaper(freer) ways to get pure sex, not that I go for that, but I don't see a point in paying money for something I could get for free with a bit of effort.

Pyr0 · 16-09-2009 11:49am

I don't mind the idea of the industry being regulated and taxed, as said before it has worked in other countries and tbh, it can only get better under supervision and regulation than it is now.

Myself, I personally couldn't pay anyone to have sex with them, it wouldn't feel right and natural. A certain level of attraction has to be there for both parties for me to enjoy myself and I can imagine in some cases the women involved have no attraction to the customer what so ever.

Prostitution

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