Prostitution

Nothingcompares · 14-09-2009 11:24pm

I think any of the heterosexual lads here talking about being a male escort should snap out of that fantasy world. I think, just my personal opinion, if you want to get a better idea conceptually is to ask yourself as a man would you be a gay prostitute? ('logistical' issues aside).

AARRRGH · 14-09-2009 11:27pm

panda100 wrote: »

I think very,very few escorts go on actual dates with clients.

I know for a fact that is not true. Every single escort I know (quite a few) go on dates with their customers, and even have weird sort of boyfriend/girlfriend relationships with some of them.

The world of escorting is nothing like the movies or extremist feminists want you to believe.

Joey the lips · 14-09-2009 11:28pm

Nothingcompares wrote: »

I think any of the heterosexual lads here talking about being a male escort should snap out of that fantasy world. I think, just my personal opinion, if you want to get a better idea conceptually is to ask yourself as a man would you be a gay prostitute? ('logistical' issues aside).

LOL thats very good and a very interesting comparison. I will have to use that some day. Are you implying that all women who prostitute in this way are of the same disgust that hethro men would be towards gays?

Just curious?;)

minidazzler · 14-09-2009 11:28pm

Nothingcompares wrote: »

I think any of the heterosexual lads here talking about being a male escort should snap out of that fantasy world. I think, just my personal opinion, if you want to get a better idea conceptually is to ask yourself as a man would you be a gay prostitute? ('logistical' issues aside).

Quite true, but if I were gonna be a male escort, It would have to be females only, I am not in anyway attracted to men or the idea of having my backdoors broken in.

I am not Naive, I knwo there wouldn't be much work in it, but if there was I might do it, but probably won't.

dyl10 · 14-09-2009 11:29pm

coyle wrote: »

My views on prostitution are very much the same as those i have on abortion: who the fcuk is a 60 year old judge, or someone like Dermot Ahern to be able to tell a 25 year old woman what she can and cant do with her own body? Its a fact of life that prostitution is here and it aint goin away anytime soon, so lets take out fcukin heads outta the sand a recognise that fact.

It's peoples choice to do what they want in their own homes and with their own bodies for fcuks sake.

I think the problem with your argument is that you have to realise is that politicians are supposed(sadly a flexible word in the extreme in some countries:rolleyes:) to be enacting social policy, on the mandate of what the people who elect them in a specific country want. So if the population of Ireland want prostitution legalised, in theory, it will be.

In reference to peoples homes, you are on the Ireland of Ireland. An area that is controlled by it's nationals, the Irish people. As a society, we are supposed to decide what we want/don't want going on in our country, through our elected government. Your house isn't a realm controlled by yourself. It's simply a living space, that you've paid to occupy, on Irish soil.

AARRRGH · 14-09-2009 11:30pm

Nothingcompares wrote: »

I think any of the heterosexual lads here talking about being a male escort should snap out of that fantasy world. I think, just my personal opinion, if you want to get a better idea conceptually is to ask yourself as a man would you be a gay prostitute? ('logistical' issues aside).

You're comparing apples with oranges.

A woman having sex with a man she doesn't fancy is nothing whatsoever like a heterosexual man reluctantly having sex with a gay man.

AARRRGH · 14-09-2009 11:31pm

dyl10 wrote: »

So if the population of Ireland want prostitution legalised, in theory, it will be.

Prostitution is already legal.

The only things which are illegal are:

Running a brothel
Advertising your services on an Irish publication
Picking up customers on the street

The escort who advertises her services on escortireland.com and escort-ireland.com (both UK based) and has sex for money in Ireland is not breaking the law.

orestes · 14-09-2009 11:33pm

aranrn wrote: »

You misunderstood. I was making the point that this chap seems to think that prostitution is progressive, that it's evidence that things are "a lot better". I don't see how the enslavement of women can be seen as progressive. I hope that makes it clearer for you because you seem to be in difficulty with the concept.

What does prostitution have to do with the enslavement of women? The idea being discussed here is whether or not people would be an escort/prostitute of their own free will, I think you might have misunderstood the point of this discussion. Personally I would argue that legalising and regualting prostitution is a progressive step for a society, but that's not the subject here so it doesn't really matter.

Not sure if I would be able to do it myself, I'm generaly quite particular about who I sleep with but that's just a completely personal thing based on my own emotional attitude and my own sexuality. I see no problem with people doing it if they decide to do so and take the necessary precautions and are aware of what they are getting into, it can be a very dangerous world to get into, physically, emotionally and psychologically.

Jeanious · 14-09-2009 11:37pm

dyl10 wrote: »

So if the population of Ireland want prostitution legalised, in theory, it will be.

That's all well and good in theory, but in reality, can you see any politician havin the balls to even table the idea of legalisation? What im sayin is, i would imagine that a relatively sizeable proportion of the population would be in favour of it in some way, shape or form, however with the current "sweep it under the carpet" mentality, we'll never even know.

dyl10 wrote: »

In reference to peoples homes, you are on the Ireland of Ireland. An area that is controlled by it's nationals, the Irish people. As a society, we are supposed to decide what we want/don't want going on in our country, through our elected government. Your house isn't a realm controlled by yourself. It's simply a living space, that you've paid to occupy, on Irish soil.

Indeed, and ive never heard about a law against bukkake parties, have you?

AARRRGH · 14-09-2009 11:37pm

orestes wrote: »

What does prostitution have to do with the enslavement of women?

Indeed. The people who refuse to accept that 99.9% of prostitutes are doing it out of their own free will are simply deluding themselves, or at least, projecting their own fears onto others.

But as you corectly point out, that not what we're discussing, so let's not go down that route.

dyl10 · 14-09-2009 11:38pm

AARRRGH wrote: »

Prostitution is already legal.

The only things which are illegal are:

Running a brothel
Advertising your services on an Irish publication
Picking up customers on the street

The escort who advertises her services on escortireland.com and escort-ireland.com (both UK based) and has sex for money in Ireland is not breaking the law.

Apologies, I was speaking in the traditional sense.
Although that doesn't really have a bearing on what I was saying anyway., Except there are loopholes in the law or ways in which it's harder to be policed.

Nothingcompares · 14-09-2009 11:40pm

AARRRGH wrote: »

You're comparing apples with oranges.

A woman having sex with a man she doesn't fancy is nothing whatsoever like a heterosexual man reluctantly having sex with a gay man.

I actually don't think it's that different. Like imagine you had no money and your father beat you/molested you. And then you were kicked out of your house. And a man raped you and then gave you money. Would the firsst time be horrendous? Would the second time be half as bad? Start turning tricks twice a night and getting your heterosexual hole drilled in will be second nature.

Admittedly, not every single female prostitute has a similar experience to the first but there are enough of them out there to constantly remind me that it's a horrendous position to be in.

AARRRGH · 14-09-2009 11:41pm

coyle wrote: »

Indeed, and ive never heard about a law against bukkake parties, have you?

This will sound mad, but **** it, I'll say it anyway.

A while ago I was researching the law about advertising prostitution in Ireland. I contacted a criminal lawyer to discuss the issue. I argued that the law is very specific - it is for sexual intercourse only - which to me (and the Oxford dictionary) means a penis going into a vagina. This would mean things like handjobs, blowjobs, and bukkake are excluded from the law and could be advertised within Ireland.

He said nope, no judge would see it that way.

So there you go.

AARRRGH · 14-09-2009 11:42pm

Nothingcompares wrote: »

I actually don't think it's that different. Like imagine you had no money and your father beat you/molested you. And then you were kicked out of your house. And a man raped you and then gave you money. Would the firsst time be horrendous? Would the second time be half as bad? Start turning tricks twice a night and getting your heterosexual hole drilled in will be second nature.

Admittedly, not every single female prostitute has a similar experience to the first but there are enough of them out there to constantly remind me that it's a horrendous position to be in.

If you want to compare women having sex with men they don't fancy, then you have to be fair and compare it to men having sex with women they don't fancy.

Prostitutes are not being forced to have gay sex.

dyl10 · 14-09-2009 11:44pm

coyle wrote: »

Indeed, and ive never heard about a law against bukkake parties, have you?

Article 6. Paragraph 5. Sub-paragraph 2. of the criminal justice act clearly states:
"Any sized gathering, party or other meeting place, where people organise to ejection of bodily fluids on to another humans skin, in a non-decent way, is fully and completely illegal under punishment of death. This includes all gatherings loosely defined as Bukkake parties or otherwise"

:eek:;)

minidazzler · 14-09-2009 11:46pm

coyle wrote: »

That's all well and good in theory, but in reality, can you see any politician havin the balls to even table the idea of legalisation? What im sayin is, i would imagine that a relatively sizeable proportion of the population would be in favour of it in some way, shape or form, however with the current "sweep it under the carpet" mentality, we'll never even know.

Indeed, and ive never heard about a law against bukkake parties, have you?

You can take our freedom but you'll never take our Bukakke parties.

This is gettng way off the mark.

First of all.
Prostitution for all intents and purposes IS LEGAL. It's how people go about it that's illegal.

Secondly the question was could you be a Prostitute, not anything to do with the legalities really

Jeanious · 14-09-2009 11:47pm

dyl10 wrote: »

Article 6. Paragraph 5. Sub-paragraph 2. of the criminal justice act clearly states:
"Any sized gathering, party or other meeting place, where people organise to ejection of bodily fluids on to another humans skin, in a non-decent way, is fully and completely illegal under punishment of death. This includes all gatherings loosely defined as Bukkake parties or otherwise"

:eek:;)

Jaysus, the Sunday World must have some serious lobbyists anyway!

Wibbs · 14-09-2009 11:57pm

minidazzler wrote: »

You can take our freedom but you'll never take our Bukakke parties.

This is gettng way off the mark.

Yes it is. Any more of that kinda thing and bans will be forthcoming. Please stay on topic. Thanks

Dudess · 15-09-2009 12:01am

AARRRGH wrote: »

Indeed. The people who refuse to accept that 99.9% of prostitutes are doing it out of their own free will are simply deluding themselves, or at least, projecting their own fears onto others.

Wouldn't it depend on the type of prostitution though? I.e. yer Heidi Fleiss-type glamorous escorts versus women who are drug addicts, sexual abuse survivors, homeless, stuck in the extreme poverty trap, etc...?

When there was talk of full legalisation of prostitution in Spain, the prostitutes themselves (and really, sometimes it's their voices that are forgotten in these debates) appealed for the energy to be directed towards getting them out of "the game" rather than legalising it.

liah · 15-09-2009 12:06am

Dudess wrote: »

When there was talk of full legalisation of prostitution in Spain, the prostitutes themselves (and really, sometimes it's their voices that are forgotten in these debates) appealed for the energy to be directed towards getting them out of "the game" rather than legalising it.

Is there any reason why there can't be both? Help for prostitutes to get out of the game as well as taking care of the ones who wish to stay in it?

Lockstep · 15-09-2009 12:08am

liah wrote: »

Is there any reason why there can't be both? Help for prostitutes to get out of the game as well as taking care of the ones who wish to stay in it?

That's one of the major reasons I'm in favour of legalisation and regulation.

If someone wants to do it, let them be/if they're forced into it, then get them out.

stovelid · 15-09-2009 12:16am

Nothingcompares wrote: »

I actually don't think it's that different. Like imagine you had no money and your father beat you/molested you. And then you were kicked out of your house. And a man raped you and then gave you money.

Rape is rape. Abuse is abuse. Projecting these definitions on all acts of prostitution, even by example, is bogus. Forgive me if I'm getting the wrong end of the stick. I don't really understand the analogy.

I don't really like the economic exploitation angle either. I do a job I don't particularly like under sufferance of being unable to provide for myself and my child. Likewise, many addicts and people below the poverty line don't opt for prostitution. Obviously being actually coerced into it is another thing totally.

A lot of the criticism assigned to prostitution is really about extraneous acts that occur around prostitution or to prostitutes: trafficking, abuse and exploitation. To me they are vile but separate crimes that intersect with prostitution, whether it's because of the profit involved with the sex trade or the exposure, given the lack of regulation in the sex trade, of prostitutes to nutcases, pimps and brothel owners. Exactly the reason why it should be regulated. It won't go away. Better to end the moralizing and regulate and legalize the industry.

Amazotheamazing · 15-09-2009 12:17am

funny how everyone sees themselves (if they had to) as being a high-end prostitute. I imagine it's as much a meritocracy as the various footballing leagues in the world. There's a lot of footballers in the world, but very few getting paid and even fewer getting the millionaire pay deals of the various premier leagues.

I can't say I know much about it, but having been to one party that was pretty much rich men and high end prostitutes, the women there were extraordinarily good looking, incredible looking really. Women that were so good looking I was shocked (oh the innocence) that they were prostitutes. Even a great looking normal woman wouldn't be near the high-end standard, if that is the standard. And before anyone asks, I was there with friends who are rich and no I didn't hire one, but having seen them, my standard "oh I'd never pay for sex" line needed some alteration, as these women were amazing and I can see why someone would pay to have sex with them.

Much like most footballers will never be professional footballers, most women are simply not good enough looking to be high end prostitutes, and frankly I think being a regular prostitute must be pretty grim.

panda100 · 15-09-2009 12:22am

AARRRGH wrote: »

I know for a fact that is not true. Every single escort I know (quite a few) go on dates with their customers, and even have weird sort of boyfriend/girlfriend relationships with some of them.

The world of escorting is nothing like the movies or extremist feminists want you to believe.

Well from my own experience I will have to disagree.

I heavily researched this a few months ago when I was writing a newspaper article on the subject and set up my own profile on Escort Ireland.
In all of the emails and phone calls 'Lucy' got, and there was lots, not one suggested a date. All wanted just 30-60 minutes of my time and there was only one outcall. The only question the men had where what my 'favourties' were and what I looked liked. Fair enough questions since they were hiring 'Lucy' out to perform their sexual fantasies and fulfill their sexual needs. You'd have to very thick and rich to be bringing out escorts on dates.

Dont get me wrong,I 100% think prostitution should be fully legalised in Ireland. But, I just refuse to believe that most women choose to do this as a profession and the more I researched into escorting the more I felt this.
I think this thread and numerous others on boards are testament to this.Not one women yet said they would want or choose to be a prostitute. Not anyone among my wide circle of female friends, some of whom are VERY liberal, would choose to have sex for money. Survey after survey shows that the majority of women in this line of work are there because of addiction or poverty.
So I think for the majority of sex workers it is just not a choice but a last resort and I think that is very sad.

Would be good to hear more female views on whether the ladies of boards would choose to do this line of work?

stovelid · 15-09-2009 12:38am

panda100 wrote: »

Survey after survey shows that the majority of women in this line of work are there because of addiction or poverty.
So I think for the majority of sex workers it is just not a choice but a last resort and I think that is very sad.

As you mentioned the site, I just had a look at Escort Ireland.

Do you mind outlining how rates of between 100-150 quid for thirty minutes of sex are indicative of a last-resort refuge from "addiction or poverty"?

Fair enough that there are genuine cases of street prostitutes with addiction issues, but why on earth are you using sites like that as a credible argument?

Another thing too: why are so many people on boards suddenly so full of sympathy for prostitutes "forced" into work from low-income backgrounds, yet the overwhelming majority of people on boards view women who raise kids on social welfare (often because of prohibitive child-care costs and low-education/job expectations) as scum?

AARRRGH · 15-09-2009 12:47am

Dudess wrote: »

Wouldn't it depend on the type of prostitution though? I.e. yer Heidi Fleiss-type glamorous escorts versus women who are drug addicts, sexual abuse survivors, homeless, stuck in the extreme poverty trap, etc...?

It's still a choice though. No one is forcing them to do it, although I agree their choices may be limited, e.g. a heroin addict isn't going to be able to feed her habit working as a cleaner. But even if your choices are limited, you have to make a conscious decision to work as a prostitute, and you have to choose to have sex with someone for money.

Limited choice is not the same as "forced".

Also, I dislike the use of forced as too many people use it to pretend the women have guns to their heads or are chained to a bed.

panda100 wrote: »

Well from my own experience I will have to disagree.

Sorry, I think we're misunderstanding each other somewhat. I am not saying every encounter starts as a date (most don't), I am saying escorts have lots of regular customers who they spend a bit of time with in date-like situations. For example, one girl goes on weekends away with a guy, even though he only pays her for 2 or 3 hours.

panda100 wrote: »

Survey after survey shows that the majority of women in this line of work are there because of addiction or poverty.

You're only talking about street prostitutes though. They are very much the minority these days. I agree they (probably) have sad lives, but the escort world (which is the majority of prostitution) is nothing like the heroin fuelled world of the street hooker.

Dudess · 15-09-2009 12:51am

How small a minority are they though? Genuine question as I'm not very knowledgeable on the issue.

AARRRGH wrote: »

It's still a choice though. No one is forcing them to do it, although I agree their choices may be limited, e.g. a heroin addict isn't going to be able to feed her habit working as a cleaner. But even if your choices are limited, you have to make a conscious decision to work as a prostitute, and you have to choose to have sex with someone for money.

I think that's a little too black and white - a person can work as a prostitute and really, really not want to do it, but feel obliged to do so because they have no choice...

AARRRGH · 15-09-2009 12:56am

Dudess wrote: »

I think that's a little too black and white - a person can work as a prostitute and really, really not want to do it, but feel obliged to do so because they have no choice...

Could you explain how they have no choice?

Bear in mind prostitutes make a fortune, and most prostitutes do not have a drug problem.

Really, I think the no choice thing is a myth. Spend some time with a prostitute and you'll see the reality is most of them are simply greedy, or at least, put money ahead of their happiness.

minidazzler · 15-09-2009 1:00am

AARRRGH wrote: »

Could you explain how they have no choice?

Bear in mind prostitutes make a fortune, and most prostitutes do not have a drug problem.

Really, I think the no choice thing is a myth. Spend some time with a prostitute and you'll see the reality is most of them are simply greedy, or at least, put money ahead of their happiness.

Some prostitutes. Street walkers make SFA, and are lucky if every john pays them.

It really depends on the type of Prostitute you are talking about, There are many different classes of prostitute, and as a famous one said before. It is impossible to go up in the world of Prostitutes, but all too easy to drop levels,

Amazotheamazing · 15-09-2009 1:01am

AARRRGH wrote: »

Bear in mind prostitutes make a fortune, and most prostitutes do not have a drug problem.

Do you have figures to back that up?

I've no doubt some (very few) prostitutes make a good bit of money, but I doubt the majority do.

Prostitution

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