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Germany putting the foot down

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  • 18-03-2009 3:49pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 4,236 ✭✭✭



    http://www.independent.ie/national-news/german-mps-shock-at-level-of-tds-pay-1676069.html

    German MP's shock at level of TDs' pay

    He gets €57,000 less in wages and allowances

    By Michael Brennan
    Wednesday March 18 2009

    FINANCE Minister Brian Lenihan has signalled his intention to clean up Ireland's financial sector.
    But he might be advised to take a look closer to home -- at our top-heavy political system -- in his drive to secure badly needed savings.
    One German MP has expressed amazement at the salaries paid to our politicians and senior civil servants.
    Hans Joachim Fuchtel was paid €92,000 to represent 280,000 people in Germany's Black Forest region, while our TDs get more than €100,000 to represent 25,000 people each.
    "My constituency is 280,000 people. For a member of the Irish parliament, it's smaller but the salaries seem to be much better," he told the Irish Independent.
    Mr Fuchtel is also limited to claiming a maximum of €44,400 in taxable expenses every year, whereas our TDs claim about €67,000 each.
    He also gets an annual grant of €14,000 to pay for his staff -- yet TDs are supplied with both a full-time secretary and a parliamentary researcher at a cost to the taxpayer of at least €40,000. Overall that means he receives around €57,000 less in wages, expenses and allowances than his Irish equivalent.

    Surprised
    During his visit for St Patrick's Day day, Mr Fuchtel said Irish people might be surprised to learn that Irish politicians were paid far more than their German counterparts.
    "And it's the same with our Chancellor Angela Merkel -- she has a €250,000 salary. She doesn't have as much as the head of a middle-sized bank -- it's very modest."
    Taoiseach Brian Cowen is paid €257,024, but this will be reduced by the 9.6pc public sector pension levy which applies to the highest earners.
    Mr Fuchtel is a member of the German Parliament's powerful finance committee and is known as the 'King of the Black Forest' for his record in being re-elected continuously since 1987.
    He supplements his income through working as a divorce lawyer -- but says that most of the 635 German MPs in the Bundestag (German Parliament) are full-time politicians.
    "If you have another job, you have to declare everything to your parliament president and then everybody can read it on the internet," he said.
    A letter writer to the Irish Independent last week quoted an article from one of Germany's leading national newspapers, 'Die Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung'.
    It wrote that the German government had been taking a precautionary look at the Irish budgetary arrangements under the magnifying glass.
    It said German officials had discovered "the Irish prime minister earns three times as much as the German chancellor" and that "there is a lot of room for economising".

    Although their figures are incorrect (Mr Cowen's salary is not three times more than Ms Merkel's), it is a signal that Germany is not willing to provide a blank cheque for any financial bailout of the Irish state.
    Mr Fuchtel said Germans wanted to see other countries take measures to deal with their own economic difficulties.
    But he said cutting the salaries of Irish politicians would not be a condition for any German bailout.
    - Michael Brennan



    The Germans are becoming more and more vocal about the level of abuse in Ireland.
    They've gone so far this time as to specifically name things which are unreasonable such as the astronomical pay for TDs, whereas in the past they've made simply general comments.


    I for one am very pleased, however, the thing that concerns me is that failure to reform (inevitable when TDs are voting on their own salary) could seriously impact our ability to secure any type of bailout.


    What do you think?


    side question: Is there any institution within the EU which could step in and 'regulate' the payment of politicians:D???????
    SUB ARTICLE
    http://www.independent.ie/opinion/letters/germans-dont-want-to-pay-for-irish-greed-1671575.html

    Germans don't want to pay for Irish greed


    Friday March 13 2009

    The following excerpt from one of Germany's leading national newspapers ('Die Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung', March 2, by author Nikolas Busse) should be of interest in Ireland:

    "Though they don't say much about it in public, the prime-ministerial offices are thinking about what will happen if a euro country gets into a situation where it can't pay its way.

    "Ireland and Greece are the prime candidates and, especially in the land of the fatigued Celtic Tiger, there seems to be a growing expectation that Germany would help out.

    "In Berlin, they have been taking a precautionary look at the Irish budgetary arrangements under the magnifying glass and have discovered that the Irish prime minister earns three times as much as the German chancellor and that even departmental heads are getting more than the head of the German government.

    "There is after all, they feel, a lot of room for economising there yet." The justified sarcasm is evident.

    Taoiseach Brian Cowen and his grossly overpaid cronies right across the public services (and I do not mean the lower ranks) are not only making a laughing stock of Ireland internationally, but by their blind greed are creating a situation where economic help needed by the ordinary people of the country, who are bearing "the pain" on their own, might not be forthcoming. Shame!

    James N O'Sullivan
    Hamburg, Germany

    I am disappointed that Richie Boucher has been appointed as CEO of Bank of Ireland.

    I have no reason to doubt either Mr Boucher's integrity or ability.

    Indeed, perhaps at any other time he might very well have proved to be the right appointee.

    However, in the current parlous times the perception both here in Ireland and internationally is that a new broom is required in all Irish banks.

    And, unfortunately, it is easy to perceive Mr Boucher's appointment in the current fraught economic climate as falling under the category of jobs for the boys.

    In the circumstances, if only for the sake of outside perceptions, the Bank of Ireland might have been better advised to appoint an outsider.


«134

Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 17,819 ✭✭✭✭peasant


    I don't think that Germany will or can bail anyone out, neither can they impose any sort of conditions.

    They may however have to foot a large part of the bill, should the EU decide to so.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,250 ✭✭✭markpb


    They're probably hoping they can embarrass the government into making the cuts necessary so we don't rock the Euro boat. What they don't know is that our TDs don't give a crap about anyone else's opinions, especially not the Germans and especially not on ethics.


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,975 ✭✭✭✭ejmaztec


    peasant wrote: »
    I don't think that Germany will or can bail anyone out, neither can they impose any sort of conditions.

    They may however have to foot a large part of the bill, should the EU decide to so.

    They'd probably like to give our politicians a good slapping and send them to bed with no supper.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 299 ✭✭Gruffalo


    Dannyboy83 wrote: »



    The Germans are becoming more and more vocal about the level of abuse in Ireland.
    They've gone so far this time as to specifically name things which are unreasonable such as the astronomical pay for TDs, whereas in the past they've made simply general comments.


    I for one am very pleased, however, the thing that concerns me is that failure to reform (inevitable when TDs are voting on their own salary) could seriously impact our ability to secure any type of bailout.


    What do you think?


    side question: Is there any institution within the EU which could step in and 'regulate' the payment of politicians:D???????

    Danny I could not disagree with you more. The Germans have no right to comment on Irish affairs at present, and here some reasons why:

    1. This clown is not giving us any info that is not in the public arena.
    2. Germany simply does not have the right to tell another sovereign state what to do. In case your memory is as short as theirs, they lost 2 wars and slaughtered millions of innocent people in an attempt to get this right.
    3. We have not asked them to bail us out, if we do then they are entitled to a say.
    4. They are in no position to bitch about giving aid i.e. the Marshall Plan, and ECB interest rates were adjusted in a manner unfavourable to Ireland to help their economy over the last 10 years.
    5. If he was interested in anything other than a cheap shot he would have corrected the factual error claiming that Cowen is paid 3 times as much as Merkel. This is just a typical German tactic, attack others to deflect attention from yourself.

    Sure politicians and public servants wages and expenses needs to be sorted but we already know that, and we dont need a German clown to tell us.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,762 ✭✭✭turgon


    Gruffalo wrote: »
    2. Germany simply does not have the right to tell another sovereign state what to do. In case your memory is as short as theirs, they lost 2 wars and slaughtered millions of innocent people in an attempt to get this right.

    I think you have lost all respect that anyone would have for you with that outdated declaration. Modern Germany is not old Germany. "They" aren't around anymore.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,151 ✭✭✭Thomas_S_Hunterson


    Gruffalo wrote: »
    Danny I could not disagree with you more. The Germans have no right to comment on Irish affairs at present, and here some reasons why:

    1. This clown is not giving us any info that is not in the public arena.
    2. Germany simply does not have the right to tell another sovereign state what to do. In case your memory is as short as theirs, they lost 2 wars and slaughtered millions of innocent people in an attempt to get this right.
    3. We have not asked them to bail us out, if we do then they are entitled to a say.
    4. They are in no position to bitch about giving aid i.e. the Marshall Plan, and ECB interest rates were adjusted in a manner unfavourable to Ireland to help their economy over the last 10 years.
    5. If he was interested in anything other than a cheap shot he would have corrected the factual error claiming that Cowen is paid 3 times as much as Merkel. This is just a typical German tactic, attack others to deflect attention from yourself.

    Sure politicians and public servants wages and expenses needs to be sorted but we already know that, and we dont need a German clown to tell us.

    Of course they have right to comment. wtf are you talking about? Godwin 4 posts in?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    Germany paid shed loads of cash into the EU for countries like Ireland to piss up the wall. Of course they have the right to comment.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 299 ✭✭Gruffalo


    Germany paid shed loads of cash into the EU for countries like Ireland to piss up the wall. Of course they have the right to comment.


    Want to tell us which money was pissed up the wall. Germany do not have the right and neither do you English. To get European money an application is submitted for funding. They have the right to check up on that if there money is included in the funding.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 299 ✭✭Gruffalo


    turgon wrote: »
    I think you have lost all respect that anyone would have for you with that outdated declaration. Modern Germany is not old Germany. "They" aren't around anymore.

    If I need your respect I will be sure to ask.


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,104 ✭✭✭✭djpbarry


    Gruffalo wrote: »
    Germany simply does not have the right to tell another sovereign state what to do. In case your memory is as short as theirs, they lost 2 wars and slaughtered millions of innocent people in an attempt to get this right.
    ...
    This is just a typical German tactic, attack others to deflect attention from yourself.
    Gruffalo wrote: »
    Germany do not have the right and neither do you English.
    Want some salt and vinegar for that chip on your shoulder?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,693 ✭✭✭Zynks


    Gruffalo wrote: »
    1. This clown is not giving us any info that is not in the public arena.
    If I may ask, why are you calling him a clown? His points seem fair in general in spite of some probably wrong details.
    Gruffalo wrote: »
    2. Germany simply does not have the right to tell another sovereign state what to do. In case your memory is as short as theirs, they lost 2 wars and slaughtered millions of innocent people in an attempt to get this right.
    What can I say?? Wait, I know.... BOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!
    Gruffalo wrote: »
    3. We have not asked them to bail us out, if we do then they are entitled to a say.
    Are you sufficiently informed to know what is going on in the background? Are you sure our powerful financial wizards haven't been going around hat in hand? I wouldn't be so confident.
    Gruffalo wrote: »
    4. They are in no position to bitch about giving aid i.e. the Marshall Plan, and ECB interest rates were adjusted in a manner unfavourable to Ireland to help their economy over the last 10 years.
    Finally one point I can agree with. The impact of this wouldn't be so harsh if our own government hadn't decided to party on the cheap money though.
    Gruffalo wrote: »
    5. If he was interested in anything other than a cheap shot he would have corrected the factual error claiming that Cowen is paid 3 times as much as Merkel. This is just a typical German tactic, attack others to deflect attention from yourself.
    Typical German tactic??? Do you have any evidence that this is how they conduct their political business?
    Gruffalo wrote: »
    Sure politicians and public servants wages and expenses needs to be sorted but we already know that, and we dont need a German clown to tell us.
    I an not german, nor do I have any connections by the way, but this looks rather like prejudice to me. WhyTF are you calling the guy a clown. I haven't seen any evidence of that.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,029 ✭✭✭tbaymusicman


    I think the German guy has found a hammer and hit the nail on the head:D:D.The Irish politicians get paid to much and there far to many of them


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 299 ✭✭Gruffalo


    Zynks wrote: »
    If I may ask, why are you calling him a clown? His points seem fair in general in spite of some probably wrong details.

    If he was being fair he would acknowledge the inaccuracy of the claim that Cowen earns 3 times as much as Merkel. He would also speak of cost of living difference and thus attempt to calculate the 'real' wage difference.

    What can I say?? Wait, I know.... BOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!

    Interesting

    Are you sufficiently informed to know what is going on in the background? Are you sure our powerful financial wizards haven't been going around hat in hand? I wouldn't be so confident.

    Are you sure that they have, I wouldn't be so confident.


    Finally one point I can agree with. The impact of this wouldn't be so harsh if our own government hadn't decided to party on the cheap money though.

    I agree but again in his lack of fairness he makes no mention of this. Just one sided analysis.


    Typical German tactic??? Do you have any evidence that this is how they conduct their political business?

    Ask the Jews


    I an not german, nor do I have any connections by the way, but this looks rather like prejudice to me. WhyTF are you calling the guy a clown. I haven't seen any evidence of that.

    He is butting his nose in where he has no right and he is doing so in an unfair manner, acting like Germany has never needed help from anyone. As I said, if we go looking for help they will then have the right to a say.


    How am I being prejudiced against Germany?

    Did they not lose 2 wars slaughtering millions of innocent people in the process?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 299 ✭✭Gruffalo


    I think the German guy has found a hammer and hit the nail on the head:D:D.The Irish politicians get paid to much and there far to many of them

    I agree that they get paid too much and that there are too many of them.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,236 ✭✭✭Dannyboy83


    I strongly disagree that they have no right to comment.

    We can't do it ourselves, they don't listen to us.
    We have a common currency and they will be the ones paying for us if we default and break the Euro. We are the only nation with a defecit in the double digits percentage wise I believe.

    I think its imperative that they comment.
    I just wish they was some method to condemn other states for violations.

    If they cannot discipline our leaders now, they may have to expel them later. :(


  • Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 28,791 Mod ✭✭✭✭oscarBravo


    Gruffalo, if you can't discuss Germany without bringing WWII into it, do yourself and everyone else a favour and stay out of the conversation.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 299 ✭✭Gruffalo


    Dannyboy83 wrote: »
    I strongly disagree that they have no right to comment.

    We can't do it ourselves, they don't listen to us.

    That is because we give them the option of not listening to us. We keep voting them in. There will be an election soon and we need to make it count. Over the next few months there is likely to be civil unrest in Ireland to a level which will force change.

    We have a common currency and they will be the ones paying for us if we default and break the Euro.

    If? and if we do they can have a say


    We are the only nation with a defecit in the double digits percentage wise I believe.

    It may well be true, but we are about to have a budget and we deserve the respect of being allowed that budget. This is just a snide attempt by the Germans to dictate our policy in the lead up to the budget. Expect the same in the lead up to Lisbon 2 (even thought is illegal)

    I think its imperative that they comment.

    They have not been elected in Ireland. It is not their imperative.

    I just wish they was some method to condemn other states for violations.

    Another valid point for my argument. They are not condemning anyone else for anything despite the fact that everyone is doing badly e.g. look at France. This is just a cheap shot at Ireland.

    If they cannot discipline our leaders now, they may have to expel them later.

    OMG, now you want to want to give them the right to discipline our leaders over pay rates. They have no authority on any of these issues, and if they feel the need to have a word, they meet the Goverment often enough, they have contact details for the Government, why do they need to spout this in newspapers? It is just a cheap shot.

    :(

    We put up with unfavourable ECB rates to try and help the German economy for a few years, we have a few bad months and they want to have a go. Not acceptable.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,236 ✭✭✭Dannyboy83


    Gruffalo wrote: »
    We put up with unfavourable ECB rates to try and help the German economy for a few years, we have a few bad months and they want to have a go. Not acceptable.

    i don't agree, but i see your point of view.

    With regard to discipline/regulation, I meant the EU, not Germany.
    I wouldn't give Germany soverignty over us.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,236 ✭✭✭Dannyboy83


    I think one of their worries is that they don't want to be seen to bail us out.

    The A10 countries are clambering for a bail out, the Germans won't deliver.
    They have to be seen to treat every country equally.

    The A10 countries recently had their own private meeting about what is going on and why they are not getting any aid.

    For the baltic countries, if they weren't pegged to the Euro, it wouldn't be so bad for them.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,049 ✭✭✭Dob74


    Gruffalo wrote: »
    We put up with unfavourable ECB rates to try and help the German economy for a few years, we have a few bad months and they want to have a go. Not acceptable.


    Nearly all of the money we got from EU in the 90's came from the German taxpayer. We have acted like complete idiots over the last few years and the idiots who ran the country into the ground. Are the best paid government in the EU:confused:.
    The German's have every right to complain about how much we pay our top exec's. They will have to pick up the tap in the end. The French and the Brits wont do anything for us.
    When we joined the euro we new it would be germany and France calling the shots. If we ran our banking system correctly we wouldn't be in half the trouble we are in today.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 299 ✭✭Gruffalo


    Dannyboy83 wrote: »
    i don't agree, but i see your point of view.

    Likewise

    With regard to discipline/regulation, I meant the EU, not Germany.
    I wouldn't give Germany soverignty over us.

    I wouldn't give anyone sovereignty over us and I assume that is what you meant.

    As I said I do not believe that they have any rights to make these comments or that they are completely honest or helpful. However if they must have a word there is a proper way to do it. Anyone who does it through a newspaper is only interested in having a cheap shot at Ireland, getting some self-publicity, and possibly deflecting attention from their own difficulties.

    I grew up in a culture where if someone, with whom you had a strong relationship, needed help, or if you felt you could help you would offer discreetly, there would never be any need for anyone else to know. Thats the proper way to do it, that was Ireland.


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,975 ✭✭✭✭ejmaztec


    Gruffalo wrote: »
    I wouldn't give anyone sovereignty over us and I assume that is what you meant.

    As I said I do not believe that they have any rights to make these comments or that they are completely honest or helpful. However if they must have a word there is a proper way to do it. Anyone who does it through a newspaper is only interested in having a cheap shot at Ireland, getting some self-publicity, and possibly deflecting attention from their own difficulties.

    I grew up in a culture where if someone, with whom you had a strong relationship, needed help, or if you felt you could help you would offer discreetly, there would never be any need for anyone else to know. Thats the proper way to do it, that was Ireland.

    Yes, Irish politicians definitely prefer the sneaky way.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 299 ✭✭Gruffalo


    Dob74 wrote: »
    Nearly all of the money we got from EU in the 90's came from the German taxpayer.

    I'd like to see a link to back that up. Define nearly all?


    We have acted like complete idiots over the last few years and the idiots who ran the country into the ground. Are the best paid government in the EU:confused:.

    True

    The German's have every right to complain about how much we pay our top exec's.

    No they dont. If they want to let them do it in private to the idiots who are being overpaid.

    They will have to pick up the tap in the end.

    Unproven, unknown speculation

    The French and the Brits wont do anything for us.

    As above

    When we joined the euro we new it would be germany and France calling the shots.

    Did we know that the German economy would need the ECB to bail it out via the management of rates at the disadvantage of other countries? Did we complain about it at the time? In the media? Did we attempt to tell them how to run their economy?


    If we ran our banking system correctly we wouldn't be in half the trouble we are in today.

    True and you will note that Bank executive wages are gonna be capped.

    No doubt we have a lot to do and we will do it.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 299 ✭✭Gruffalo


    ejmaztec wrote: »
    Yes, Irish politicians definitely prefer the sneaky way.

    I see context is not something which concerns you greatly.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,236 ✭✭✭Dannyboy83


    Gruffalo wrote: »
    I wouldn't give anyone sovereignty over us and I assume that is what you meant.

    As I said I do not believe that they have any rights to make these comments or that they are completely honest or helpful. However if they must have a word there is a proper way to do it. Anyone who does it through a newspaper is only interested in having a cheap shot at Ireland, getting some self-publicity, and possibly deflecting attention from their own difficulties.

    I grew up in a culture where if someone, with whom you had a strong relationship, needed help, or if you felt you could help you would offer discreetly, there would never be any need for anyone else to know. Thats the proper way to do it, that was Ireland.

    I doubt anyone wants to stick their neck out mate, LOL
    Look what FF did the last time:D
    http://www.independent.ie/national-news/reprimand-for-german-envoy-over-his-coarse-irish-speech-1081773.html

    No but honestly, they already did do this privately:
    http://www.theherald.co.uk/news/news/display.var.2490074.0.eu_warns_ireland_over_massive_financial_deficit.php

    As for doing it in public, they didn't originally to be fair. It was an internal article in a German newspaper.

    Then the latest comments were on St.Patrick's day

    During his visit for St Patrick's Day day, Mr Fuchtel said Irish people might be surprised to learn that Irish politicians were paid far more than their German counterparts.


    As for giving soverignty to the EU, I would consider it.
    Their interests are far more representative of me than FF.


    EDIT: My comments above were intended to show that its not just clow(e)n with his head in the sand.
    They take no notice of what the Germans say, our defecit is expanding at a frightening rate.
    Us and Greece are the pikeys of Europe.


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,092 ✭✭✭✭jmayo


    Gruffalo wrote: »
    We put up with unfavourable ECB rates to try and help the German economy for a few years, we have a few bad months and they want to have a go. Not acceptable.

    Yes the ECB rates were setup for the main euro economies, but did that prevent us from going apesh** like crazied kids in a sweet shop.

    Did the Germans force our banks to offer 100% mortgages or bank loans to students in college ?
    Did the Germans force our government to develop and continue section 23/50 grants for investors to buy into unsustainable developments in the likes of Leitrim or Limerick city ?
    Did the Germans force our government to do nothing about speculators and investors forcing the property prices higher for FTBs and thus pushing up wage demands ?

    The Germans have every right to be pi**ed off, they provided most of the money that came into this country from EU/EEC.
    Money to subsidise small farmers and money to build most of our roads and infrastructure.
    How many billion did Albert Reynolds squeeze out of the EU ?
    Then they believe we turned our backs on them when we voted no to Lisbon and even worse they now see us dragging down the euro which they will have to prop up.

    We have acted like a bunch of student muppets who have gone to a party without bringing any booze. When we got their we drank everyone elses booze, proceeded to tell them all to pi** off and now we expect them to pay for our hangover cures.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,693 ✭✭✭Zynks


    Gruffalo wrote: »
    I grew up in a culture where if someone, with whom you had a strong relationship, needed help, or if you felt you could help you would offer discreetly, there would never be any need for anyone else to know. Thats the proper way to do it, that was Ireland.

    Are you talking about charity? Sure, between individuals that is fine, but when governments have to put big money for a similar purpose there is accountability, so secrecy (nor too much pride) doesn't really fit the situation.

    We took in around €50 billion from the EU (or should I say Germany to a large extent)...what do we have left to show other than an incredible amount of private and state debts and a few tolled roads? If I was a German person I would be annoyed to even contemplate new handouts of any kind.

    They know, and we know (except for you by the looks of it) that Germany might end up being the source of support we are increasingly likely to need. Would you feel offended if your bank manager tells you to sort out your messes before he lends?

    I am more than happy to hear politicians from our European partners providing constructive criticism to our deserving government. :rolleyes:


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 299 ✭✭Gruffalo


    Dannyboy83 wrote: »
    I doubt anyone wants to stick their neck out mate, LOL
    Look what FF did the last time:D
    http://www.independent.ie/national-news/reprimand-for-german-envoy-over-his-coarse-irish-speech-1081773.html

    No but honestly, they already did do this privately:
    http://www.theherald.co.uk/news/news/display.var.2490074.0.eu_warns_ireland_over_massive_financial_deficit.php

    As for doing it in public, they didn't originally to be fair. It was an internal article in a German newspaper.

    Then the latest comments were on St.Patrick's day

    During his visit for St Patrick's Day day, Mr Fuchtel said Irish people might be surprised to learn that Irish politicians were paid far more than their German counterparts.


    As for giving soverignty to the EU, I would consider it.
    Their interests are far more representative of me than FF.


    EDIT: My comments above were intended to show that its not just clow(e)n with his head in the sand.
    They take no notice of what the Germans say, our defecit is expanding at a frightening rate.
    Us and Greece are the pikeys of Europe.

    Danny on 2 of your points here, in a newspaper is not private.

    I understand your contempt of FF (it is shared here) but no way would I give our sovereignty to anyone.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,300 ✭✭✭CiaranC


    Gruffalo wrote: »
    We put up with unfavourable ECB rates to try and help the German economy for a few years, we have a few bad months and they want to have a go. Not acceptable.
    A few bad months. lol


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 299 ✭✭Gruffalo


    jmayo wrote: »

    Then they believe we turned our backs on them when we voted no to Lisbon and even worse they now see us dragging down the euro which they will have to prop up.

    Ah yes Lisbon, now that goes a long way to explain the cheap shot. These guys clearly have as little respect for democracy as FF.

    Try criticising Germany for things they have done which you dont agree with and see how far that gets you.


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