Do you have any sympathy for George Best?

xzanti · 30-10-2005 8:17pm

Silverfish wrote:

http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/alcohol-allergy/AN00818/FORCESSL=false&

So?? Im sure it is also possible to be allergic to it with the rash etc like with any food or drink... I have had experience of alcoholism since childhood with family members, why dont you sit in on an AA meeting some night, they're free of charge and easily accessible... you might get a more realistic view of the disorder than just googling a web page...

Silverfish · 30-10-2005 8:22pm

I have seen the realism of alcohol first hand, please do not make assumptions that because I do not agree with you, I know nothing.

I'm slightly bemused by people saying they have sympathy for Best's family, when he himself made their lives hell.

I have unreserved sympathy for people with diseases like cancer, multiple sclerosis...anything. Basically, those who did not pay to get the thing that's making them ill.

No sympathy for those who handed money over a pub counter to get it.

You won't change my opinion on this.

xzanti · 30-10-2005 8:28pm

You won't change my opinion on this.[/QUOTE]
Evidently

cil_aine · 30-10-2005 8:43pm

my dads an alcaholic, has been since i can remember, spends all our money on drink is an incredible burden on our family, has made our lives hell. it's incredibly selfish. yet, if he was on a life support machine of course i'd be upset, he's my father ffs he still loves me, and i love him. i hate him for what he's doing to himself and me and my mother though. i do feel sympathetic towards george best, i feel sympathy towards him beacuse all those years ago he had some problems and the only way he could cope was through drink. irish people have a terrible problem with denial in my opinion, alcaholics in particular. they dont believe that anythings wrong with them, and refuse to get help. they just keep going back to drink. in my opinion it is a form of disease, it takes control of your life, and takes many people you love away from you. Remember, Best's mother was an alcoholic too.

Silverfish, i see your point, but beleive me, it's really not as easy as having "a bit of willpower, a bit of sense". this isn't giving up fags, it's giving up a drug whcih you have come dependant to the nth degree on. it takes control of you, and destroys your willpower and sense. If your mother or father were in hospital, due to alcoholism, you're telling me you wouldn't see them? i belieive you just have to keep offering support to these people.

peckerhead · 30-10-2005 8:51pm

Aye, well said. Not trying to change Silverfish's mind or anything, but...

Declaration #1: I am nearly as old as GB...:eek:
Declaration #2: My liver (and everything else) is fine so far, Dee-Vee... :rolleyes:
Declaration #3: I can fully understand all of those right-on/right-wing posters saying "let-him-die"/"why-should-taxpayers-cover-alkies'-medical-costs", etc. BUT...

(a) He was undoubtedly one of the most gifted football players ever to emerge from these isles, EVER!
(b) He was not, at heart, a bad man (depending on whom you choose to believe)
(c) I often wonder how "pure" are the equivalent current-day soccer celebrities we read so much of?

[Edit: Fair play to cill_aine for a post like that. I wonder (a) how many of you boardsters would be as honest? and (b) just how intolerant "young people today" are wrt your own parents'/uncles&aunties' "drinking problems"? 'Cos it seems to me there's an awful lot of double-speak sh1t doing the rounds here and elsewhere on that particular topic...]

WhiteWashMan · 30-10-2005 9:35pm

i just hope when i die im not judged by the types of people here who can only see a black and white case of a famous man with alcoholism, and cant seem to grasp the underlying humanity in the situation.

its a shame there are so many people who are so certain about so many things in life.
perhaps when you grow up you will realise that not everything so certain, and that not everything is easy to understand, and just sometimes, its not always healthy to have a staunch opinion on every subject under the sun.

Hagar · 30-10-2005 9:48pm

Dear God, I agree with WWM!
Cil_aine my heart goes out to you.

cil_aine · 30-10-2005 9:53pm

WhiteWashMan wrote:

i just hope when i die im not judged by the types of people here who can only see a black and white case of a famous man with alcoholism, and cant seem to grasp the underlying humanity in the situation.

its a shame there are so many people who are so certain about so many things in life.
perhaps when you grow up you will realise that not everything so certain, and that not everything is easy to understand, and just sometimes, its not always healthy to have a staunch opinion on every subject under the sun.

totally agree with you there

Brian017 · 30-10-2005 10:21pm

No, it's his own fault.

Interceptor · 30-10-2005 10:49pm

When you destroy your health to the point where you need a liver transplant then you lose the right to abuse the one donated to you. What if his drinking manifected itself with regular drink driving, and he was in hospital after hurting people in an accident? The liver he has been using for the last few yeas wasn't his - he had it when someone else didn't. No sympathy here.

'c

cil_aine · 30-10-2005 11:00pm

no doubt he was stupid, and selfish for destroying the new liver he's been given, the liver that ultimately saved his life. i feel sorry that he's become like this though.

Maguined · 30-10-2005 11:30pm

WhiteWashMan wrote:

i just hope when i die im not judged by the types of people here who can only see a black and white case of a famous man with alcoholism, and cant seem to grasp the underlying humanity in the situation.

WWM just because some of us do not agree with you does not mean we can only see things in black and white. I have thought about this alot, and have had many of my own personal experiences with this situation. But is just so happens that my opinion is different than yours and just because i believe he has brought this all on himself, alcoholism is not a disease and its his resonsibility alone does not mean i have failed to grasp the underlying humanity in the situation.

WhiteWashMan wrote:

its a shame there are so many people who are so certain about so many things in life.
perhaps when you grow up you will realise that not everything so certain, and that not everything is easy to understand, and just sometimes, its not always healthy to have a staunch opinion on every subject under the sun.

Again you are making arrogant assumptions that just because some of us disagree with your views we are young/immature people who are so certain about so many things in life. I can just as easily turn around and accuse you of being so certain that Alcoholism is a disease and takes control of your life so completely that the individual looses all responsibility for their condition. how staunch is your own opinion ?

patchouli · 31-10-2005 1:29am

Interceptor wrote:

What if his drinking manifected itself with regular drink driving, and he was in hospital after hurting people in an accident?

Again this point that MAJD introduced earlier is being brought up

I really don't see how this hypothetical "What if" scenario is relevant to the discussion!!

Maguined · 31-10-2005 1:40pm

people use the hypothetical "what if" scenario's to make valid points. As Interceptor asked would you find Best responsible if he drank then got into a car and killed someone ? would you say its not his fault because he is an alcoholic and it is a disease that controls his life so he is not responsible for his actions ? or would you believe he is responsible for killing that person ? This directly relates to his new liver, he got a new liver and then continued to drink and waste the liver. Chances are there was someone else who needed a liver transplant and they might have died and all George can do is just **** up a miraculous second chance at life.

WhiteWashMan · 31-10-2005 9:00pm

Mikaboshi wrote:

how staunch is your own opinion ?

my opinion is that sometimes, people just fúck up, becuase you know what, thats what people do.

and im certainly not going to damn someone for it, becuase you know what?

at some stage, im going to do it, and id rather treat people as i would like to be treated.

im all for telling george best hes been silly, but what good would it do?

well?

my opinion is live and let live. theres enough other people out there who need to be right, for me to bother being intolerant. i think its more about peoples need to feel right and try and control something than actually having an informed and enlightened opinion.

WhiteWashMan · 31-10-2005 9:02pm

Mikaboshi wrote:

Chances are there was someone else who needed a liver transplant and they might have died and all George can do is just **** up a miraculous second chance at life.

and once again, the decision was based on sound medical reasoning, not becuase george best was a famous footballer.
if it happened to any other person, you wouldnt give a shít.

Hagar · 31-10-2005 9:11pm

I had the immense pleasure a few years ago of having dinner with George Best as the guest of a well connected, in the football sense, business friend of mine. He was a perfect gentleman and great company. I accept that I'm biased as he was a childhood idol of mine. Yes I am that old.

The thing was the man couldn't take two bites of his food without some goon coming upto him at the table and slapping him on the back with the "Hey Georgie, how are you" as if they knew him. Drinks were sent constantly over to the table by well meaning fans at other tables in the retaurant.

I'm can only assume it must have been like this every time he went anywhere. The man knew no peace or privacy. There was constant pressure on him from people who admired him or people who hated him and wanted to tell him to his face.

He lives in a glass box. How many of use could live like that? I know I couldn't.

Laguna · 31-10-2005 9:17pm

I don't hate the man, I think he was an extraordinairy footballing talent. Speaking of people coming up thinking they know him, I as a fan of any famous person (be it an actor or whatever) would respect their privacy enough not to gawk/shout out their name. For example, my favourite actor is Morgan Freeman, if I saw him on the street I'd want to go over and say "I thought your performance in the Shawshank was brilliant", however, I'd know that the man doesn't want to be hassled walking down the street so I'd leave him alone.

Maguined · 31-10-2005 10:07pm

WhiteWashMan wrote:

i think its more about peoples need to feel right and try and control something than actually having an informed and enlightened opinion.

Exactly how is your opinion more informed and enlightened than mine or anyone else who said they do not have sympathy for him ? you do not have any evidence than you are more informed than me or more enlightened so again this is based on arrogance that because i disagree with you i must be someone who is un-informed and un-enlightened.

WhiteWashMan wrote:

if it happened to any other person, you wouldnt give a shít.

Nice assumption unfortunately it is wrong. If any human being goes off and drinks their liver to death and then drinks a donated liver to **** then i will give a ****. But no one has started a thread about any of these other people, this thread was started about Best so i posted about Best.

WhiteWashMan wrote:

id rather treat people as i would like to be treated.

im all for telling george best hes been silly, but what good would it do?

well?

If i go around ****ing up my own and other peoples lives then i would want to be treated the same as i am treating Best, being told what i am doing is my own responsibility and it is incredibly selfish.

The good it would do is that if people realise it is their own responsibility to kick the habit and that nothing in this world can change the fact it is through their own willpower alone that this can be achieved then more people might kick the habit. Calling alcoholism a disease and removing the responsibility away from the alcoholic saying its not their fault etc is just giving them excuses not to quit the drink.

WhiteWashMan · 31-10-2005 10:18pm

Mikaboshi wrote:

blah blah blah

you do get worked up over a difference of opinion dont you.

Maguined · 31-10-2005 10:27pm

And you do no get worked up and quote me saying "blah blah blah"

I do not get worked u over a difference of opinion, i expect pople to have a different opinion than mine, what i do get worked up over is when people insult me because my opinion is different than theirs.

You implied that because i do not agree with you that i am immature, uninformed and unenlightened, this does get me worked up.

WhiteWashMan · 31-10-2005 10:40pm

Mikaboshi wrote:

And you do no get worked up and quote me saying "blah blah blah"

I do not get worked u over a difference of opinion, i expect pople to have a different opinion than mine, what i do get worked up over is when people insult me because my opinion is different than theirs.

You implied that because i do not agree with you that i am immature, uninformed and unenlightened, this does get me worked up.

you can read into my posts what you want.

i dont think i directly said anything about you, but if you see yourself in what i say, then i dont think i can be held responsible for that.

perhaps you may need to learn a little more tolerance and acceptance?

Maguined · 31-10-2005 10:53pm

WhiteWashMan wrote:

i just hope when i die im not judged by the types of people here who can only see a black and white case of a famous man with alcoholism, and cant seem to grasp the underlying humanity in the situation.

types of people here ? so explain then which of us on this thread fall into the "types" of people you accuse of seeing things in black and white and have failed to grasp the underlying humanity in the situation.

WhiteWashMan wrote:

perhaps when you grow up you will realise that not everything so certain, and that not everything is easy to understand, and just sometimes, its not always healthy to have a staunch opinion on every subject under the sun.

so which of us in this example needs to grow up ? which of us have a staunch opinion ?

WhiteWashMan wrote:

i think its more about peoples need to feel right and try and control something than actually having an informed and enlightened opinion.

which of us are not informed and enlightened ?

you seemed to be making these insults towards people who do not have sympathy towards Best, I am one of these people so I felt these insults must apply towards me too. If this is not the case then will you inform me who these insults are actually directed towards then ?

Do you not feel someone sould be able to post their opinion to a thread calling for peoples opinions and not be insulted in this manner ? Why do you feel the need to insult people in this way ? getting a bit too worked up about this thread too much are you ?

In what way am i not being tolerant and acceptant ? maybe you should follow your own advice before insulting people.

WhiteWashMan · 31-10-2005 10:55pm

Mikaboshi wrote:

types of people here ? so explain then which of us on this thread fall into the "types" of people you accuse of seeing things in black and white and have failed to grasp the underlying humanity in the situation.

so which of us in this example needs to grow up ? which of us have a staunch opinion ?

which of us are not informed and enlightened ?

you seemed to be making these insults towards people who do not have sympathy towards Best, I am one of these people so I felt these insults must apply towards me too. If this is not the case then will you inform me who these insults are actually directed towards then ?

Do you not feel someone sould be able to post their opinion to a thread calling for peoples opinions and not be insulted in this manner ? Why do you feel the need to insult people in this way ? getting a bit too worked up about this thread too much are you ?

In what way am i not being tolerant and acceptant ? maybe you should follow your own advice before insulting people.

i simply put up an opinion. you are free to disagree with it.

Maguined · 31-10-2005 11:04pm

Yeah as you are free to disagree with mine, imho myself and others have been insulted by some of your comments i highlighted however and so requested an explanation from yourself about these insults. People do not like being insulted so i was giving you an opportunity to explain yourself. If you do not want to then thats fine, I am a big boy it won't bother me too much, I just felt you might want to clarify your position about these perceived insults.

WhiteWashMan · 31-10-2005 11:18pm

Mikaboshi wrote:

imho myself and others have been insulted by some of your comments .

now, is that in your opinion, or is that fact?

Mikaboshi wrote:

blah blah blah .

yes. whatever.

Paddy20 · 31-10-2005 11:51pm

Goodness, I have already expressed my sympathy for George Best, but a lot of the unsympathetic posts on this thread are really shocking in there ignorance and inhumanity.

I now hope George recovers enough, so that he can go out and 'Drink until he drops' if that is his wish.

He owe's no one anything.

P.:cool:

Dave! · 01-11-2005 12:07am

Paddy20 wrote:

Goodness, I have already expressed my sympathy for George Best, but a lot of the unsympathetic posts on this thread are really shocking in there ignorance and inhumanity.

I now hope George recovers enough, so that he can go out and 'Drink until he drops' if that is his wish.

He owe's no one anything.

P.:cool:

You don't think he owes the person whose liver he's currently using? Or the person who could have had the liver and not abused it?

Silverfish · 01-11-2005 12:16am

DaveMcG wrote:

You don't think he owes the person whose liver he's currently using? Or the person who could have had the liver and not abused it?

Thats my thinking, I watched my sister do everything she could to protect the bone marrow that was donated to her, and give up everything she loved to try and keep it safe because she felt she 'owed' it to the person who donated.

Unfortunately, my sister ( at 15) was not a famous footballer. That, it seems from this thread, made her less of a person. She could, however, have been a famous showjumper, or model, or scientist, but she never got the chance, she got a few extra months at the most. So I don't feel that I'm 'ignorant' because I believe if someone donates an organ to you, which you would most certainly have already died without, you do have an obligation to try and survive. So maybe you might be able to see why my sympathies are mostly used up on people who have no control whatsoever over their situation - I'm taking on board that alcoholics may well be victims, but they do have some control.

Like I've said previously, having an opinion does not make you ignorant, I managed to state my opinion without calling anyone 'ignorant' or 'stupid'. If only others could do the same.

Maguined · 01-11-2005 12:26am

WhiteWashMan wrote:

now, is that in your opinion, or is that fact?

that is in my opinion, that is why i have asked you to explain your comments as i perceive them to be insults. Insults i believe are against the charter of this forum so i wanted your comments clarified as to who exactly you are insulting and how you perceive them if you believe they are not insults.

This is the last time i am asking you politely to explain your comments, if you do not feel you should explain your comments then i will just give up and not bother this thread again. But i would much rather prefer you do take the time to explain them to me please, I would appreciate it.

Do you have any sympathy for George Best?

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