Luas strike general thread (mandatory: read warning in post #1)

trellheim · 15-02-2016 9:28pm

Does anyone from SIPTU think Transdev have any leeway here, I'm not entirely sure what the strategy ( or even tactics ) is/are. With CPI set to bounce along at a fairly low rate .... seriously folks what is the thinking mans strategy

jimmycrackcorm · 15-02-2016 9:40pm

trellheim wrote:

Does anyone from SIPTU think Transdev have any leeway here, I'm not entirely sure what the strategy ( or even tactics ) is/are. With CPI set to bounce along at a fairly low rate .... seriously folks what is the thinking mans strategy

Its a clever model, Transdev don't own the Luas so they could go out of business. Another company takes over and offers new jobs on no strike terms.

Anyway its not really a big deal seeing as there are only two lines and still busses to fall back on.

kildarecommuter · 15-02-2016 9:48pm

As Transdev have moved from nothing to now 1-3'% and the workers are talking about spreading an increase over 5 years I'd imagine that whatever about next Thursday and Friday strike, something may happen to get both sides back in negotiations before St Patricks Day.

syklops · 15-02-2016 10:05pm

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

Anyway its not really a big deal seeing as there are only two lines and still busses to fall back on.

Try living somewhere served by one very unreliable bus. The strike becomes a very big deal then.

Grandeeod · 15-02-2016 10:16pm

kildarecommuter wrote: »

So you believe in workers rights but not their right to organize in a Union to try and improve their lot?

Improve their lot? Get real. And where did I say I didn't agree with their right to organise in a union?????

This is greed built on a legacy.

LXFlyer · 15-02-2016 10:17pm

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

Anyway its not really a big deal seeing as there are only two lines and still busses to fall back on.

Certain areas, particularly those along the Green Line, don't have much spare capacity left on the bus services, which have been cut back to a more realistic service level that meets the normal demand.

The 44, 47, 61 and 63 are not what you would term either frequent or adequate substitutes in the event of a strike, and the 14 is already pretty full at peak times.

Grandeeod · 15-02-2016 10:19pm

end of the road wrote: »

68k, 60k, 65k, 64k. i have read so many bogus figures in the last couple of days its actually not funny any more. they are not looking for anything near 60 anything k. the most they will get (and the most they are looking for) is about 10-15% in real terms.

all 90000 commuters daily commute extended by hours? no chance. a small few maybe but not all 90000.

can't be done. it not being segregated makes automating it prohibitive. health and safety as well. if it was doable it would have been done all ready.

I'm still waiting on your answer to my questions. Thank away all you like to posts that suit you, but have the decency to at least back up your claims.

Grandeeod · 15-02-2016 10:26pm

kildarecommuter wrote: »

As Transdev have moved from nothing to now 1-3'% and the workers are talking about spreading an increase over 5 years I'd imagine that whatever about next Thursday and Friday strike, something may happen to get both sides back in negotiations before St Patricks Day.

Thats crap talk. Transdev have not moved from nothing. Before the strike, they wanted SIPTU to "modify" their claim. Transdev are not prepared to negociate down from a starting point of a 54% wage increase.

Its a straight forward 50% gap at play here. Drivers, backed by the union have shot high and I hope the bullit hits them in the head. They make IE train drivers look like industrial relations perfection.

Don't forget the legacy issue at play either.

kildarecommuter · 15-02-2016 10:35pm

Grandeeod wrote: »

Thats crap talk. Transdev have not moved from nothing. Before the strike, they wanted SIPTU to "modify" their claim. Transdev are not prepared to negociate down from a starting point of a 54% wage increase.

Its a straight forward 50% gap at play here. Drivers, backed by the union have shot high and I hope the bullit hits them in the head. They make IE train drivers look like industrial relations perfection.

Don't forget the legacy issue at play either.

You obviously know very little about how unions work, the members decide what they want tell their officials who may advise them that it may or may not be achievable but if members insist on going forward it's their call, they are the ones taking industrial action

end of the road · 15-02-2016 10:45pm

Grandeeod wrote: »

I'm still waiting on your answer to my questions. Thank away all you like to posts that suit you, but have the decency to at least back up your claims.

all ready answered. its called "go high negotiate down" very obvious stuff.

Grandeeod · 15-02-2016 10:53pm

end of the road wrote: »

all ready answered. its called "go high negotiate down" very obvious stuff.

That's an opinion. You shot other posters down that based their opinion on facts known. You are the talk of parts of Boards for your groundless dismission of facts.

lawlolawl · 15-02-2016 11:46pm

Damn these semi-state arseholes for holding the country to ranso.................oh, a private public transport companies staff are striking?

Uh, um, damn CIE somehow! How dare public transport workers think they should be paid a decent wage!

Enjoy the fruits of paying people with 45+ hour a week rosters doing a ridiculously responsible job for just over the national average wage. They are "over-paid" according to most people and yet you wouldn't do their job or work their hours in a million years.

There are people in this country being paid much more to do silly pointless jobs because we have moved away from paying useful people properly to do actual jobs for the betterment of society.

I hope this strike goes on for as long as it takes for the drivers to get what they want and more.

monument · 16-02-2016 10:27am

lawlolawl wrote: »

Damn these semi-state arseholes for holding the country to ranso.................oh, a private public transport companies staff are striking?

Uh, um, damn CIE somehow! How dare public transport workers think they should be paid a decent wage!

Enjoy the fruits of paying people with 45+ hour a week rosters doing a ridiculously responsible job for just over the national average wage. They are "over-paid" according to most people and yet you wouldn't do their job or work their hours in a million years.

There are people in this country being paid much more to do silly pointless jobs because we have moved away from paying useful people properly to do actual jobs for the betterment of society.

I hope this strike goes on for as long as it takes for the drivers to get what they want and more.

Again: less after hours type posting.

Would not normally warn such a post but it is bordering on troll-like and is a pattern given second after hours -like post in short time frame.

-- moderator

markpb · 16-02-2016 10:34am

syklops wrote:

Try living somewhere served by one very unreliable bus. The strike becomes a very big deal then.

The idea that Dublin Bus can provide a useful alternative to Luas is downright laughable. Some areas will have good bus routes but I suspect those routes are good because they're already busy. Others have a pitiful service. Sandyford, for example, is goosed when Luas isn't running.

LXFlyer · 16-02-2016 10:38am

markpb wrote: »

The idea that Dublin Bus can provide a useful alternative to Luas is downright laughable. Some areas will have good bus routes but I suspect those routes are good because they're already busy. Others have a pitiful service. Sandyford, for example, is goosed when Luas isn't running.

You are quite right that the idea that DB can suddenly carry all these extra passengers is farcical, as frequency was cut on many routes around the LUAS to reflect the revised demand levels for the bus service.

But, I'm not sure "pitiful" is the right term to describe the service - they have an appropriate bus service for the normal demand levels.

I don't think for example that the 44 requires more than an hourly service normally, do you?

trellheim · 16-02-2016 11:46am

Lot of very angry service users in here; face it folks If I went into the boss and asked for 50% extra ( without a jokey smile, you know, serious, like ) you'd be having a very different discussion to the one you thought you were having.

most people have to fight like dogs for a couple of points above CPI - anyone looking for 50%+ is not in the correct place for a discussion

Murph_D · 16-02-2016 3:08pm

Oops - posted most of this in the wrong thread (After Hours) :roll eyes:
______

I'd imagine the goal is to grow the service and identify efficiencies to make it profitable over the lifetime of the contract.

The workers want to sit on their arse like their CIE brethren and get raises just for existing.

They are complaining that they won't be able to lobby for increased pay over inflation (CPI tracking), which is ridiculous, if every worker got pay increased over inflation, inflation would go up to match, they're living in cloud cuckoo land.

Any inefficiencies Transdev would be identifying would be their own, as AFAIK they have run the service since the beginning (when they were called Veolia).

I don't see what you mean about workers sitting on their arses - this dispute seems to be about pay, not about working hours (unless you expect the drivers to work standing up?). A Luas driver starts on 35,901 for a 39 hour contracted week (the average worked is less, not sure if this means they get less than that).

I take your point about CPI wage increases and inflation. It's all about getting to the table first, though. I agree that going to bat with a headline figure of a 53.8% increase isn't going to win the drivers many friends and it gives the company and the media something to hit the drivers and their union over the head with.

However Transdev is making a lot of this 700k figure so I'd like to know where it comes from. The Luas is actually operated by a subsidiary of Transdev Ireland called Transdev Dublin Light Rail Ltd., and that company's account excerpts as filed with the CRO (latest year available 2014) show that it's been consistently profitable:

|2014|2013|2012| 2011|2010|2009|2008
Turnover|38.0m|47.7m|44.7m|41.4m|36.1m|35.3m|38.5m
Profit (loss) before tax|£678k|£1.1m|£1.1m|£1.6m|£1.6m|£2.1m|£2.1m
All figures in sterling, source FAME company database.

Transdev Ireland doesn’t publish its turnover but over the same period it’s generally managed to turn these profits into losses or smaller profits:
|2014|2013|2012| 2011|2010|2009|2008
Turnover|?|?|?|?|?|?|?
Profit (loss) before tax|-£1.6m|£3.9m|£108k|-£977km|-£11.4m|£2.4m|-£1.1m
All figures in sterling, source FAME company database.

Now there are all kind of potential explanations for why profits in a subsidiary can be accompanied by losses in the parent, such as financing, transfer pricing, licensing, etc., but it's hardly transparent where the company's 700,000 loss is coming from.

Maybe someone knows and can shed some light based on verifiable facts, rather than speculation?

trellheim · 16-02-2016 5:19pm

It's all about getting to the table first, though.

Is it, though ? Getting to the table with what ? How is that a sensible/sane negotiation strategy . Is that in the big book of "Acceptable Transdev Negotiation Strategies ? ( Or, 'What Worked Last Time' ) "

Grandeeod · 16-02-2016 6:56pm

kildarecommuter wrote: »

You obviously know very little about how unions work, the members decide what they want tell their officials who may advise them that it may or may not be achievable but if members insist on going forward it's their call, they are the ones taking industrial action

Don't insult me. I know exactly how unions work. Your description is like a wiki version.

kildarecommuter · 16-02-2016 8:16pm

Grandeeod wrote: »

Don't insult me. I know exactly how unions work. Your description is like a wiki version.

I kept it simple for you!

syklops · 17-02-2016 2:33am

markpb wrote: »

The idea that Dublin Bus can provide a useful alternative to Luas is downright laughable. Some areas will have good bus routes but I suspect those routes are good because they're already busy. Others have a pitiful service. Sandyford, for example, is goosed when Luas isn't running.

I know. I live in Cherrywood. Im dreading Thursday.

LXFlyer · 17-02-2016 3:58am

syklops wrote: »

I know. I live in Cherrywood. Im dreading Thursday.

Surely the 145 is a reasonable option for you?

With respect, compared to most other locations along the LUAS route you do have a reasonable bus service there, plus you're at the outer end of the tram route.

If going to town, you have the 7, 145 and the option of combining the 84 and 4, 7, 8 or DART at Blackrock.

Bear in mind also that for most schools this week is half-term.

syklops · 17-02-2016 4:12am

lxflyer wrote: »

Surely the 145 is a reasonable option for you?

With respect, compared to most other locations along the LUAS route you do have a reasonable bus service there, plus you're at the outer end of the tram route.

If going to town, you have the 7, 145 and the option of combining the 84 and 4, 7, 8 or DART at Blackrock.

Bear in mind also that for most schools this week is half-term.

No offence but what has me being on the outer end of the tram line got to do with anything?

I have never had a good experience with the 7 after living here for 2 years. Someone told me about the 145 a couple days ago so i will be aiming to get that one. If bus service in Cherrywood is reasonable then god help other areas with worse service.

To be fair, it doesn't need to be fantastic, because it has the Luas, but when the Luas isnt running, its pretty poor.

LXFlyer · 17-02-2016 4:21am

syklops wrote: »

No offence but what has me being on the outer end of the tram line got to do with anything?

I have never had a good experience with the 7 after living here for 2 years. Someone told me about the 145 a couple days ago so i will be aiming to get that one. If bus service in Cherrywood is reasonable then god help other areas with worse service.

To be fair, it doesn't need to be fantastic, because it has the Luas, but when the Luas isnt running, its pretty poor.

Being at the outer end of the LUAS line means that the loadings would be much lighter than further in - that's more chance of getting on a bus.

How could you not know about the 145? It goes every 10 minutes all day long and is a 10 minute walk away from Cherrywood LUAS on the N11. It can actually be faster than the LUAS as certain times.

http://www.dublinbus.ie/en/Your-Journey1/Timetables/All-Timetables/145-/

That's a far better bus service than most locations further in along the line which have much more curtailed schedules.

syklops · 17-02-2016 4:30am

lxflyer wrote: »

How could you not know about the 145? It goes every 10 minutes all day long and is a 10 minute walk away from Cherrywood LUAS on the N11. It can actually be faster than the LUAS as certain times.

.

I am bearing in mind that you and I have locked horns on how good or not Dublin Bus is before.

How did I not know about the 145? Well for starters I rarely needed to go looking. I could stand at a bus stop and the bus might come, or I can use the Luas which goes every 10 minutes and is usually reliable.

Finding information on the DB website is a pain in the hole, unless you know what information you are looking for. Unless you know the route number or the stop number, finding useful information is very difficult.

However, I know you won't agree to any of my points, so lets just leave it there.

LXFlyer · 17-02-2016 4:40am

syklops wrote: »

I am bearing in mind that you and I have locked horns on how good or not Dublin Bus is before.

How did I not know about the 145? Well for starters I rarely needed to go looking. I could stand at a bus stop and the bus might come, or I can use the Luas which goes every 10 minutes and is usually reliable.

Finding information on the DB website is a pain in the hole, unless you know what information you are looking for. Unless you know the route number or the stop number, finding useful information is very difficult.

However, I know you won't agree to any of my points, so lets just leave it there.

I'm just genuinely somewhat surprised that you never noticed such a frequent bus, that's all, if you went out for a walk for example, having lived there for 2 years.

Most other stops along the route have bus routes that are either every 30 or 60 minutes (11, 44, 47, 61, 63). They don't have a bus that operates every 10 minutes nearby.

And with respect I'm not attacking you, so please don't start getting aggressive with me.

I actually tried to help - I have given you three different bus options above.

I'd also suggest downloading the National Journey Planner app - it's very user friendly and helpful if you don't know your bus routes.

BOHSBOHS · 17-02-2016 2:09pm

Murph_D you are leaving out taxation and dividends??
These bring the company into "retained losses" territory every year

operating profits are falling every year and with the new 5year contract reportedly with tighter margins this might be the source of the "700k" loss ?(after tax and divis of course :P)

Carawaystick · 17-02-2016 3:57pm

If you are going to allow a company give their money away to people* and then claim it's loss making, we are going to have to disagree on profit and loss.

* because that's what dividends are.

BOHSBOHS · 17-02-2016 4:40pm

im not , im suggesting that might be where the company is coming up with their 700k loss figure?
the tax part of it aint optional.

granting even a small % wages increase would probably still completely wipe out any profits.

Halpenny · 17-02-2016 6:35pm

There should be certain days that are off limits for striking when it comes to public transport; St. Patrick's day is such an important day economically for this country and to think Luas workers are going to strike on that day I think is cynical :eek: Can you imagine all the tourists with their leprechaun hats coming here to be told sorry we've no trams running! Luas workers are entitled to strike but I'd say they'll get very little support from the average person the way things are going. I know the whole point of striking is to put pressure on employers to compromise and reach an agreement but there's more involved in the dispute than just the Luas workers; SMA say the city could lose €50 million in revenue!

Anyhow - has anyone got a spare pallet lying about? Could really do with one for tomorrow and Friday. This fella below had a genius idea ...

Luas strike general thread (mandatory: read warning in post #1)

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