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Why do we still need Pride?

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    #62
    Ash885
    Registered Users Posts: 639 ✭✭✭Ash885


    First Pride and didn't see anything bad or out of the ordinary for a typical Saturday in Dublin. Parade was chirpy and the night after was great for meeting old friends. The gay world in Ireland is scarily small! Of course there were some people who were as pissed as fish early in the day but they a) weren't nessessarily gay/attached to Pride and b) would have been drunk somewhere else anyway given the celebrations.

    Not excusing that Pride might bring about people who make a show of themselves but I was pleasantly surprised not to have seen any of it. Count me lucky I guess?


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    #63
    hotmail.com
    Registered Users Posts: 13,071 ✭✭✭✭hotmail.com


    News Flash: Some people go a bit mad during Pride.


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    #64
    hotmail.com
    Registered Users Posts: 13,071 ✭✭✭✭hotmail.com


    dubscottie wrote: »
    What I noticed today was that there was a load of kids in town getting drunk. What was worse was at about 5pm I witnessed 2 lads that could not have been more than 16-17, **** each other off. In full view of passers by..

    I am gay and did some outdoors stuff when I was younger but never where you could be in view of the public.

    What we need to think about is Pride is going to turn into an excuse for everyone to get pissed, as happened with the Arthur's day thing.

    A small bunch of pissed kids (prob with good intentions) could give the whole Pride thing a bad name.

    Jesus man, you just said you did outdoor stuff and then judge them two lads! Bit rich like.

    They must have had a great day by the sounds of it.


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    #65
    wakka12
    Registered Users Posts: 9,786 ✭✭✭wakka12


    hotmail.com wrote: »
    Jesus man, you just said you did outdoor stuff and then judge them two lads! Bit rich like.

    They must have had a great day by the sounds of it.

    He said he did it outdoors in a private area, probably a forest or something..? Anyway, thats very different to **** on public streets.


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    #66
    hotmail.com
    Registered Users Posts: 13,071 ✭✭✭✭hotmail.com


    wakka12 wrote:
    He said he did it outdoors in a private area, probably a forest or something..? Anyway, thats very different to **** on public streets.


    No such thing a private public area. If it was in a park, that is a public area and he could have been seen by anyone. He has a bit of a nerve to judge anyone else.


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    #67
    jobbridge4life
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,759 ✭✭✭jobbridge4life


    hotmail.com wrote: »
    No such thing a private public area.

    There most assuredly is in practical terms.


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    #68
    hotmail.com
    Registered Users Posts: 13,071 ✭✭✭✭hotmail.com


    jobbridge4life wrote:
    There most assuredly is in practical terms.


    The point is the hypocrisy of giving out out people doing that in public view when they've admitted they did it themselves in a public place!

    Anyway, who cares. Some people are still so weird about sex in this country. Even those that said they did outdoor sex (but it's not ok for other people!) .

    60,000 out the parade. Unbelievable. It's only going to get bigger. Bononza for Dublin city centre.


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    #69
    irish_dave_83
    Registered Users Posts: 144 ✭✭irish_dave_83


    hotmail.com wrote: »
    No such thing a private public area.

    Yea but there are discreet areas. Conducting a sexual act openly on the street is a very different mindset. :p


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    #70
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 40,871 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    hotmail.com wrote: »
    Jesus man, you just said you did outdoor stuff and then judge them two lads! Bit rich like.

    They must have had a great day by the sounds of it.

    Do you think its ok for 16/17 year olds to be **** each other off on a public street?

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #71
    jobbridge4life
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,759 ✭✭✭jobbridge4life


    hotmail.com wrote: »
    The point is the hypocrisy of giving out out people doing that in public view when they've admitted they did it themselves in a public place!

    Anyway, who cares. Some people are still so weird about sex in this country. Even those that said they did outdoor sex (but it's not ok for other people!) .

    60,000 out the parade. Unbelievable. It's only going to get bigger. Bononza for Dublin city centre.

    I'm sorry but just because two sex acts happen to have happened out of doors does not mean they have anything other than that bare fact in common. Moreover just because one has engaged once in an activity or a vaguely similar activity does not mean they can't ever properly comment on it again. If in a drunken encounter you forget to use a condom does that mean one should be precluded from criticising bareback orgies?

    Being so sh*tfaced that you end up preforming a sex act on a public street in our capital city, in broad day light is worthy of criticism and that criticism is valid even if the person making it has done the exact same thing themselves at some point in the past.


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    #72
    Ash885
    Registered Users Posts: 639 ✭✭✭Ash885


    Anyone else a little bit disappointed (albeit not surprised) threads about Pride ended up being about this? I understand it might have been unsettling to some but like...you're all arguing about what merits acceptable sex outside?

    How about talking about some of the positives as well? I loved all the pro Trans groups parading. I loved how Roscommon and Leitrim got massive cheers as they went by the crowds. I loved the GMHS van and HIV banners promoting safety. That the INTO were the only group I could see still campaigning for Sectio 37 to be removed. I was surpised Pavee point had a group. How seeing couples in their late 50s and 60s walking down the street holding hands and getting cheered was only matched by the group of toursits I overheard commending Ireland as a whole. How two drag queens were buying bars in a Spar and the only thing they were asked was were they having a good day?

    But no, let's talk solely about this.


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    #73
    jobbridge4life
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,759 ✭✭✭jobbridge4life


    Ash885 wrote: »
    Anyone else a little bit disappointed (albeit not surprised) threads about Pride ended up being about this? I understand it might have been unsettling to some but like...you're all arguing about what merits acceptable sex outside?

    How about talking about some of the positives as well? I loved all the pro Trans groups parading. I loved how Roscommon and Leitrim got massive cheers as they went by the crowds. I loved the GMHS van and HIV banners promoting safety. That the INTO were the only group I could see still campaigning for Sectio 37 to be removed. I was surpised Pavee point had a group. How seeing couples in their late 50s and 60s walking down the street holding hands and getting cheered was only matched by the group of toursits I overheard commending Ireland as a whole. How two drag queens were buying bars in a Spar and the only thing they were asked was were they having a good day?

    But no, let's talk solely about this.

    You are right of course but as is always the way with humans the most outrageous/sexy/scary/disturbing/scandalous thing will find its way to the top of our attention lists. Think Slane Girl.


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    #74
    SpaceTime
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,088 ✭✭✭SpaceTime


    Having sex or getting your bits out in a sexual way and **** in a public place here is illegal and you can be charged with public indecency offences.

    It's not really something that is open to a discussion about context. It's just not legal or socially acceptable to have sex in full public view here - gay or straight it's irrelevant (and straight people have done this too...)

    I've seen similar behaviour with straight couples at various events (outdoor gigs) and it's usually down to being off their faces on something that has removed all inhibitions or being total exhibitionists - usually a combination of both.

    In the context of gay pride also a bit of an own goal. There are conservatives constantly looking for reasons to go "see! I told you so!"

    A bit of cop on would be a nice thing! It's a public place, anyone could be walking past, including minors.

    We've also just got a bunch of "feral youth" who seem to just have absolutely zero cop on about anything.

    Again they're always there they're not at all unique to the LGBT community.

    At the end of the day, the gay community encompasses *all* the same personalities as any other aspect of the Irish community and as a nation a small % tend to get very, very messy at parties and festivals.


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    #75
    hotmail.com
    Registered Users Posts: 13,071 ✭✭✭✭hotmail.com


    Joeytheparrot wrote:
    Do you think its ok for 16/17 year olds to be **** each other off on a public street?


    I don't care is my answer. I wouldn't do it myself. But I did plenty of stupid things when I was younger that I wouldn't do now. All sorts of stuff happened on Saturday! Are we going to criticise every "wrong" action from Pride and sit in boards.ie judgement?


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    #76
    hotmail.com
    Registered Users Posts: 13,071 ✭✭✭✭hotmail.com


    This is not conservatives giving out about it. It's other gay men who have probably done far worse in their time!

    The issue of alcohol consumption in Ireland at these kinds of events is definitely an issue that should be discussed. But it should be discussed as a general issue, not specific to Pride or any other single event.

    The "sex" thing gets brought up every year and I really feel this is just people's awkwardness and prudishness with sex in general. And it's usually one couple out of thousands and yet people focus on this. Get over it.

    I would rather a debate / discussion about the alcohol consumption in Ireland. Do we drink too much or is it ok for a once off event? And I'm not just referring to 16-20 years. Many people in their 30s and 40s upwards were wasted on Saturday.


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    #77
    SpaceTime
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,088 ✭✭✭SpaceTime


    - the LGBT community is just connected together by a single common struggle - it encompasses everyone from politicians, to professors, to street sweepers, to sports people, to conservative mammies, to football hooligans and scummy teenagers and everyone in between.

    I don't think it's any more reasonable to make sweeping statements about the gay community that it would be about "all men" or "all women".

    We share a sexual orientation and common objectives to have our rights recognised and most of us are probably lovely but, we can't just take responsibility for the actions of every gay person any more than I'm responsible for the actions of every man in his 20s to 30s.

    Scumbags will be scumbags and get messy in public - they can be straight or LGBT.

    Being gay doesn't instantly mean you're a social sophisticate either!

    I just see it as a reflection on a % of dumbasses that inhabit this island as I've seen similar behaviour from straight people. Only difference is is two lads will get more of a shocked reaction from people who are a bit homophobic.

    Cop on would be nice but, it's not going to happen.

    Messy and sometimes dangerous Stuff happens at festivals, it always did and most likely always will.

    Let's not get carried away beating ourselves up about it!

    ...

    I'd also add we absolutely do still need pride!
    It helps a hell of a lot of people out of the their shells and it also keeps the LGBT aspect of society viable which is currently still very important.

    There's a notion out there that ah sure they're grand now they're able to marry.

    You still can't necessarily comfortably walk down the street holding your partner's hand in most of Europe.

    You've still got not only limited rights but actual active persecution of LGBT people in many countries.

    Being very visible in the liberal countries keeps changing attitudes elsewhere and keeps pushing things forward by showing Ireland and most other forward thinking countries are able to not just tolerate but actually embrace their gay side as part of their cultures.

    There's a big need for it and don't let a bunch of muppets getting carried away shocking a few right wing conservatives derail it!


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    #78
    wakka12
    Registered Users Posts: 9,786 ✭✭✭wakka12


    SpaceTime wrote: »
    - the LGBT community is just connected together by a single common struggle - it encompasses everyone from politicians, to professors, to street sweepers, to sports people, to conservative mammies, to football hooligans and scummy teenagers and everyone in between.

    I don't think it's any more reasonable to make sweeping statements about the gay community that it would be about "all men" or "all women".

    We share a sexual orientation and common objectives to have our rights recognised and most of us are probably lovely but, we can't just take responsibility for the actions of every gay person any more than I'm responsible for the actions of every man in his 20s to 30s.

    Scumbags will be scumbags and get messy in public - they can be straight or LGBT.

    Being gay doesn't instantly mean you're a social sophisticate either!

    I just see it as a reflection on a % of dumbasses that inhabit this island as I've seen similar behaviour from straight people. Only difference is is two lads will get more of a shocked reaction from people who are a bit homophobic.

    Cop on would be nice but, it's not going to happen.

    Messy and sometimes dangerous Stuff happens at festivals, it always did and most likely always will.

    Let's not get carried away beating ourselves up about it!

    ...

    I'd also add we absolutely do still need pride!
    It helps a hell of a lot of people out of the their shells and it also keeps the LGBT aspect of society viable which is currently still very important.

    There's a notion out there that ah sure they're grand now they're able to marry.

    You still can't necessarily comfortably walk down the street holding your partner's hand in most of Europe.

    You've still got not only limited rights but actual active persecution of LGBT people in many countries.

    Being very visible in the liberal countries keeps changing attitudes elsewhere and keeps pushing things forward by showing Ireland and most other forward thinking countries are able to not just tolerate but actually embrace their gay side as part of their cultures.

    There's a big need for it and don't let a bunch of muppets getting carried away shocking a few right wing conservatives derail it!
    We say that a lot but in reality its probably perfectly safe to walk hand in hand with somebody of same gender in almost every urban area in western europe. Dublin for sure, and cork ,galway and belfast. A lot of it is in our heads, can you honestly imagine anybody in dublin punching you or shouting fag for doing this? Because I can't.
    The only reason I wouldn't hold hands with my boyfriend in public is because Im a very self conscious person and the thought of people thinking nasty things about me in their head is enough to make me feel sick, its an irrational fear. Im sure you'd actually get a lot of people smiling proudly at you in Dublin for being so brave and open.


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    #79
    SpaceTime
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,088 ✭✭✭SpaceTime


    I'm not sure I'd be that confident or that it's all in anyone's head either.

    Spend a lot of time in Belgium and France. Belgium in particular has been at the leading edge of gay rights for decades but two people I know we're pretty savagely attacked in Brussels for holding hands. (That's a country that has had an openly gay prime minister.)

    Local scumbags hurling abuse followed by punches to the face.

    That kind of thing is a bit worrying.

    In Bordeaux there was a spate of incidents where 5 people were actually murdered in homophobic attacks.

    I'm not saying Ireland's that bad but, there's still a bit to do too.

    So I'm just saying it's still far from gay-friendly paradise Europe despite the rights. There's still a long way to go on shifting some attitudes.


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    #80
    jobbridge4life
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,759 ✭✭✭jobbridge4life


    wakka12 wrote: »
    We say that a lot but in reality its probably perfectly safe to walk hand in hand with somebody of same gender in almost every urban area in western europe. Dublin for sure, and cork ,galway and belfast. A lot of it is in our heads, can you honestly imagine anybody in dublin punching you or shouting fag for doing this? Because I can't.
    The only reason I wouldn't hold hands with my boyfriend in public is because Im a very self conscious person and the thought of people thinking nasty things about me in their head is enough to make me feel sick, its an irrational fear. Im sure you'd actually get a lot of people smiling proudly at you in Dublin for being so brave and open.

    Honestly that is wishful thinking. There are areas of Dublin I'd feel fairly confident of being able to hold the OHs hand with out getting a nasty reaction but there are also areas where I wouldn't even think of it.


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    #81
    SpaceTime
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,088 ✭✭✭SpaceTime


    jobbridge4life wrote: »
    Honestly that is wishful thinking. There are areas of Dublin I'd feel fairly confident of being able to hold the OHs hand with out getting a nasty reaction but there are also areas where I wouldn't even think of it.

    I'm seeing a good few gay couples holding hands around Cork though and not just young trendy types either.


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    #82
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 40,871 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    hotmail.com wrote: »
    This is not conservatives giving out about it. It's other gay men who have probably done far worse in their time!

    The issue of alcohol consumption in Ireland at these kinds of events is definitely an issue that should be discussed. But it should be discussed as a general issue, not specific to Pride or any other single event.

    The "sex" thing gets brought up every year and I really feel this is just people's awkwardness and prudishness with sex in general. And it's usually one couple out of thousands and yet people focus on this. Get over it.

    I would rather a debate / discussion about the alcohol consumption in Ireland. Do we drink too much or is it ok for a once off event? And I'm not just referring to 16-20 years. Many people in their 30s and 40s upwards were wasted on Saturday.

    Why should it be a general discussion? Why not a debate on why alcohol consumption/abuse is so high amongst LGBT people?

    http://drugs.ie/features/feature/alcohol_use_among_the_lesbian_gay_bisexual_transgender_lgbt_community

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #83
    SpaceTime
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,088 ✭✭✭SpaceTime


    Joeytheparrot wrote: »
    Why should it be a general discussion? Why not a debate on why alcohol consumption/abuse is so high amongst LGBT people?

    http://drugs.ie/features/feature/alcohol_use_among_the_lesbian_gay_bisexual_transgender_lgbt_community

    Stress, social exclusion and addiction tend to go together.

    Maybe that's going to start changing rather rapidly as being LGBT starts to become as controversial as being ginger.

    I actually also think there needs to be more focus on non pub, bar, club related community resources.

    The survey could be a bit biased towards the people who identify as the gay community who are basically regulars in a particular bar / set of venues.

    I suspect there's a big, broad, rather unnoticed gay community out there who may be rather boring and sensible.

    It's a bit of a conflation of the Irish drinking culture with gay night life culture and I suspect that's likely to produce very very serious drinking.

    I think in an Irish context though there is a general discussion to be had. Irish people tend to go for drink (and drugs) to overcome social awkwardness and I think it's something we really do need to look at as a country.

    As far as I can see the gay community is just a subset of the Irish community so, you're really seeing the same problems a bit magnified by a few unique factors.


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    #84
    wakka12
    Registered Users Posts: 9,786 ✭✭✭wakka12


    SpaceTime wrote: »
    I'm not sure I'd be that confident or that it's all in anyone's head either.

    Spend a lot of time in Belgium and France. Belgium in particular has been at the leading edge of gay rights for decades but two people I know we're pretty savagely attacked in Brussels for holding hands. (That's a country that has had an openly gay prime minister.)

    Local scumbags hurling abuse followed by punches to the face.

    That kind of thing is a bit worrying.

    In Bordeaux there was a spate of incidents where 5 people were actually murdered in homophobic attacks.

    I'm not saying Ireland's that bad but, there's still a bit to do too.

    So I'm just saying it's still far from gay-friendly paradise Europe despite the rights. There's still a long way to go on shifting some attitudes.
    Those murders were actually committed by muslim immigrants, not french people...so you can't really say bordeaux isn't an accepting place based on a group of people who are forcing the awful customs and attitudes of their homelands upon their new home


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    #85
    wakka12
    Registered Users Posts: 9,786 ✭✭✭wakka12


    SpaceTime wrote: »
    I'm not sure I'd be that confident or that it's all in anyone's head either.

    Spend a lot of time in Belgium and France. Belgium in particular has been at the leading edge of gay rights for decades but two people I know we're pretty savagely attacked in Brussels for holding hands. (That's a country that has had an openly gay prime minister.)

    Local scumbags hurling abuse followed by punches to the face.

    That kind of thing is a bit worrying.

    In Bordeaux there was a spate of incidents where 5 people were actually murdered in homophobic attacks.

    I'm not saying Ireland's that bad but, there's still a bit to do too.

    So I'm just saying it's still far from gay-friendly paradise Europe despite the rights. There's still a long way to go on shifting some attitudes.
    Also why is there so little news reports about those 5 murders? Seems like it would be very big news no?? I can hardly find anything about it, anything that comes up is about some girl called kelli bordeaux who went missing


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    #86
    SpaceTime
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,088 ✭✭✭SpaceTime


    wakka12 wrote: »
    Also why is there so little news reports about those 5 murders? Seems like it would be very big news no?? I can hardly find anything about it, anything that comes up is about some girl called kelli bordeaux who went missing

    Im not sure it was kind of big ish news in France.

    Honestly though it's not just extreme Islamic types over there.

    There's a hugely homophobic extreme right too. It's bit of a horrible coalition of both:

    Have a look at what's going on over there:

    http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/apr/21/france-gay-marriage-bill

    As nasty as our referendum was *nothing* like that happened!

    I was just sitting at a cafe on my own reading my iPhone in Paris and a gay couple at the next table got harassed and called "pédé" the usual term of abuse for gay people in France which stems from pedophile. It's an extremely nasty slur that gets used all the time rather casually by teenagers too.

    I'm not even sure it was a gay couple either. just two French lads having lunch (a common sight in France oddly enough...)

    It's all very easy to just blame Islamic communities for this but France has turned quite hard right too. There's a lot of scary crap going on and it's increasingly a place I don't even want to spend any time anymore.

    Sad to say that as its a country I have a lot of connections to and fond memories of but it's showing its nasty side way too often for my liking.

    Between the neo nazis and the Islamists it's just becoming an incredibly hostile place to be if you're a minority group that isn't liked by both of those factions.

    ...

    Sadly, it's also still wishful thinking to assume that you're entirely safe and comfortable being gay in Western Europe - you're not.

    This is exactly why we still need things like gay pride and constant pushes to change attitudes.


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    #87
    Kalman
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 233 ✭✭Kalman


    L1011 wrote: »
    Until such time as the religious get-outs in the Employment Equality Act are fixed, and the legislation for marriage (and the gender recognition bill passes, on the T side of LGBT) there is still obvious inequality to fight for. That's well before homophobia is dealt with.

    And we will all live happily ever after. Stop dreaming! There will always be homophobia .


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    #88
    SpaceTime
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,088 ✭✭✭SpaceTime


    Kalman wrote: »
    And we will all live happily ever after. Stop dreaming! There will always be homophobia .

    If you don't dream, nothing changes!

    Changing attitudes is no small task but it is achievable. Bit by bit.


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    #89
    mrkiscool2
    Registered Users Posts: 5,159 ✭✭✭mrkiscool2


    SpaceTime wrote: »
    If you don't dream, nothing changes!

    Changing attitudes is no small task but it is achievable. Bit by bit.
    While I do agree that we have to dream of a world where homophobia no longer exists to get attitudes to change, it will never happen. There will always be bigots. It's unfortunate but it happens. We just have to get closer and closer to that line of all people being accepted, no matter who they are.


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    #90
    dubscottie
    Closed Accounts Posts: 854 ✭✭✭dubscottie


    hotmail.com wrote: »
    The point is the hypocrisy of giving out out people doing that in public view when they've admitted they did it themselves in a public place!

    Public park at 2am in a bush or on Georges Street in public.... Both public places..


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    #91
    irish_dave_83
    Registered Users Posts: 144 ✭✭irish_dave_83


    dubscottie wrote: »
    Public park at 2am in a bush or on Georges Street in public.... Both public places..

    Yes but one is discreet and one is not. Lets be honest, you have a different mind-set if you are just going to whip it out on Georges street full of people compared to a near empty park behind a bush.


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