Swiftway - Dublin's first bus rapid transit route - detailed plans released

bk · 25-03-2015 11:15am

Bambi wrote: »

4 goes to monkstown via phibsoro, the 13 goes to clondalkin via drumcondra, why would someone who uses the 1 get either unless you assume everyone only commutes to O'Connell Street ? Its a different route entirely

Yes, that would is clearly the reality. I'd see very few people who live in these estates going further then town and if they do then to can switch buses in town.

Sure it might inconvenience a very small number of people who go further south from these estates, but tough, sometimes you have to break a few eggs to get an overall better service for the majority of people.

You can clearly see that improved interchange is a major part of the NTA's BRT plan. It is very clear that they are planning to change Westmoreland Street and D'Olier street into a major public transport interchange, with BRT, Luas Cross City and numerous Dublin Bus stops all well integrated on these streets, with large bus shelters and Leap card ticket machines.

As for the 44, I seriously doubt any DCU students are going stand around waiting an hour for a 44 over walking 2 minutes longer to get a much higher frequency BRT with a much faster journey time.

Seriously guys, a little bit of change is necessary sometimes for the greater good.

KD345 · 25-03-2015 2:08pm

BK, my point on the comparison against Aircoach and Airlink is that BRT will offer similar or faster speeds between the city and the Airport, but instead of charging €6 or €7, it will be a regular fare. This will naturally attract more passengers which adds to my concerns about capacity.

The proposed frequency on BRT at peak times is every 4 minutes, with each vehicle having capacity for 120 passengers. Spread over the two hours between 7-9am this is capacity for 3,600 passengers.

Currently, when you combine the frequency of the 16/c, 33/x, 41/b/c/x and 44 at this same time there is capacity for 4,860. My calculations allow for 90 passengers per bus, and although the Xpresso buses take a different route, they do contribute to easing pressure on the regular services from Swords. Without the Xpresso figures, the above routes still offer capacity of just under 4,000 passing Whitehall Church. This figure rises again when you add in the 11 and 13 a bit further down the road.

It's all very well saying how close people in Whitehall and Santry live to the proposed BRT, but if there is no capacity to carry these passengers then it's of little use. There is a reason so many 16s/44 enter service at Collins Avenue each morning, it's because they're needed.

I really hope I'm wrong on my capacity concerns, but I just don't accept how people are dismissing routes like the 1, 11, 13, 16 and 44. These are important services and offer links far beyond what BRT can provide.

On the Northside end of the 44 - I certainly don't agree with your claims of it being pointless. It's carrying good numbers to and from DCU.

None of us know for certain what will happen with BRT. Hopefully the powers that be get it right, or it could look like a very expensive mess.

stehyl15 · 25-03-2015 3:02pm

Would a trolleybus be a good idea for brt

cgcsb · 25-03-2015 3:17pm

stehyl15 wrote: »

Would a trolleybus be a good idea for brt

You'd be taking on the cost of overhead power when really we should just be building metro north and cease the plaster solution bs that is BRT(along this corridor anyway)

end of the road · 25-03-2015 3:43pm

bk wrote: »

Yes, that would is clearly the reality. I'd see very few people who live in these estates going further then town and if they do then to can switch buses in town.

Sure it might inconvenience a very small number of people who go further south from these estates, but tough, sometimes you have to break a few eggs to get an overall better service for the majority of people.

You can clearly see that improved interchange is a major part of the NTA's BRT plan. It is very clear that they are planning to change Westmoreland Street and D'Olier street into a major public transport interchange, with BRT, Luas Cross City and numerous Dublin Bus stops all well integrated on these streets, with large bus shelters and Leap card ticket machines.

As for the 44, I seriously doubt any DCU students are going stand around waiting an hour for a 44 over walking 2 minutes longer to get a much higher frequency BRT with a much faster journey time.

Seriously guys, a little bit of change is necessary sometimes for the greater good.

no its not if it causes customers to abandon the bus service. the routes being talked about here are useful to people, and if people don't wish for these routes to be taken away they should fight against it. not everyone wants to go to town, why should they if they could get a more direct route that doesn't go through town to where they want to go? making people change busses for the sake of it is pointless

bk · 25-03-2015 6:19pm

end of the road wrote: »

no its not if it causes customers to abandon the bus service. the routes being talked about here are useful to people, and if people don't wish for these routes to be taken away they should fight against it. not everyone wants to go to town, why should they if they could get a more direct route that doesn't go through town to where they want to go? making people change busses for the sake of it is pointless

What are you talking about?! The routes we are talking about here, the 1, 44, 16, 41 all go right through O'Connell Street!

KD345, obviously if you reduce or remove services like the 44, 1, etc. You would obviously increase the frequency of the BRT. No reason why BRT couldn't be every 3 minutes (4,800 passengers) or even 2 minutes (7,200 passengers).

end of the road · 25-03-2015 7:34pm

bk wrote: »

What are you talking about?! The routes we are talking about here, the 1, 44, 16, 41 all go right through O'Connell Street!

KD345, obviously if you reduce or remove services like the 44, 1, etc. You would obviously increase the frequency of the BRT. No reason why BRT couldn't be every 3 minutes (4,800 passengers) or even 2 minutes (7,200 passengers).

they are useful to people and need to be retained along with the BRT. a mixture of routes and the BRT is the only way to go.

Calina · 25-03-2015 7:45pm

end of the road wrote: »

they are useful to people and need to be retained along with the BRT. a mixture of routes and the BRT is the only way to go.

It really isn't. The BRT is a stopgap measure for MN and really, we should just bite the bullet and do MN properly instead.

end of the road · 25-03-2015 8:05pm

Calina wrote: »

It really isn't. The BRT is a stopgap measure for MN and really, we should just bite the bullet and do MN properly instead.

yes i know that, and mn is what i want, all be it it should be changed to dart underground north instead

monument · 25-03-2015 8:10pm

Calina wrote: »

It really isn't. The BRT is a stopgap measure for MN and really, we should just bite the bullet and do MN properly instead.

The draft design of the planned BRT tries to do too much (mainly accomadation both express BRT and local services with bus stop bays out of the way of BRT, which in turn causes compermises and conflict for walking and cycling), so I'm not fond of it and don't like supporting it, but...

It's really not just a stopgap measure. The name does not matter, but a reworking of the road/street network is badly needed regardless. Buses, waking and cycling needed better space and priority. A reduction in car capacity in the city centre area within the canals is already well on its way with Luas and other measures. The city is growing and it just can't accomdate the same level of cars as it use to.

Calina · 25-03-2015 8:14pm

monument wrote: »

The draft design of the planned BRT tries to do too much (mainly accomadation both express BRT and local services with bus stop bays out of the way of BRT, which in turn causes compermises and conflict for walking and cycling), so I'm not fond of it and don't like supporting it, but...

It's really not just a stopgap measure. The name does not matter, but a reworking of the road/street network is badly needed regardless. Buses, waking and cycling needed better space and priority. A reduction in car capacity in the city centre area within the canals is already well on its way with Luas and other measures. The city is growing and it just can't accomdate the same level of cars as it use to.

The reworking of the road/street network does not require a public transport option which is already over capacity on the day of implementation. The city is growing and BRT Swords certainly does not come close to resolving the issues.

If we genuinely want to address these issues, we need to look at MN sooner rather than putting in BRT and then having to put in MN anyway.

monument · 25-03-2015 10:48pm

Calina wrote: »

The reworking of the road/street network does not require a public transport option which is already over capacity on the day of implementation. The city is growing and BRT Swords certainly does not come close to resolving the issues.

If we genuinely want to address these issues, we need to look at MN sooner rather than putting in BRT and then having to put in MN anyway.

Even if you drop the fancy name, a reworking on the streets and roads would include much of what is planned with BRT, ie more bus lanes etc -- the only difference is that it would be done over a longer time and likely end up costing more.

Your arguments is miss-focused being against BRT -- spend you time looking for Metro North if that's what you want.

Chris_5339762 · 26-03-2015 9:43am

Without a detailled study of the plans, how easy would it be to build this corridor as-is and just pop Luas trams on it instead? It seems like its a major rework of the northside road network... so how easy would it be? Notwithstanding longer stops and the overhead electric network.

cgcsb · 26-03-2015 11:19am

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

Without a detailled study of the plans, how easy would it be to build this corridor as-is and just pop Luas trams on it instead? It seems like its a major rework of the northside road network... so how easy would it be? Notwithstanding longer stops and the overhead electric network.

the swiftway proposal uses side of the road running, luas must have centre of the road. The cost of installing luas, rails, utility diversion, overhead power etc. would be such that we may just build metro north.

BRT, on the Swords route is a cheapo measure so that the current lot can be seen to be doing something.

monument · 26-03-2015 11:58am

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

Without a detailled study of the plans, how easy would it be to build this corridor as-is and just pop Luas trams on it instead? It seems like its a major rework of the northside road network... so how easy would it be? Notwithstanding longer stops and the overhead electric network.

Luas would fit in the centre of the road on the route easier than BRT would (and BRT can fit in the centre). Luas would fit easier mainly because of the stop location flexibility with trams (ie two-way centre-island tram stops), but also because tram lanes can be narrower than bus lanes before compromising.

If desirable, mixing trams and some local buses and or taxis is posable as demostrated by places like Amsterdam. If there's any loading issues or pinch points etc, it could be tram only.

Carawaystick · 26-03-2015 1:14pm

Trams require diversion of utilities, and a much stronger foundation than a road for a bus.
Installing trams on the route would block the route to traffic for years.

Banjoxed · 26-03-2015 1:24pm

Carawaystick wrote: »

Trams require diversion of utilities, and a much stronger foundation than a road for a bus.
Installing trams on the route would block the route to traffic for years.

Unless the balance is tilted towards public transport and away from private cars BRT will be merely a bit of outdoor relief for the bus manufacturers.

I forsee articles in the Indo and the Herald handwringing about isn't the disruption simply terrible in an attempt to nobble bus priority measures that would actually work. In that case "we" might as well be hanged for a sheep as for a lamb, and put high capacity trams on the BRT route instead.

Aard · 26-03-2015 1:47pm

The irony is that Swiftway has been designed as though it were for trams and not for buses, which are much more flexible (not in the "bendy" sense).

Banjoxed · 26-03-2015 4:34pm

Aard wrote: »

The irony is that Swiftway has been designed as though it were for trams and not for buses, which are much more flexible (not in the "bendy" sense).

Well then the logic of that view is that we shouldn't bother with priority or associated furniture at stops. A few upright poles with "Bus" on a circular sign on top should presumably be all that's needed, and squander the BRT project in the same way that the ballyhooed QBCs couldn't be a genuine alternative to rail and tram lines. Traffic pinch points will still compromise public transport, but that's all right, seemingly.

Aard · 26-03-2015 7:45pm

I should have said designed with the limitations of trams and none/few of the advantages of buses. Proposed junction arrangements are more than disappointing.

Stevek101 · 27-03-2015 8:03pm

The consultation report is now up.

Aard · 27-03-2015 9:08pm

There should be more drawings out soon. Then one more public consultation.

I'm not sure the NTA's summary of issues is comprehensive. There's very little mention of cycling facilities along the route, which were awful designs. Alas.

cgcsb · 27-03-2015 11:22pm

My comment about centre of the road running was included, which I'm happy about. A few comments about parking at schools. Seriously its Dublin, walk, cycle or take a bus. How far away are these people living from their local school.

Aard · 27-03-2015 11:27pm

A huge number of submissions appear to be from the Swords area near the end of the line. Given such huge investment, the comparatively low population of the area, and the few if any trip generators there -- imo the locals should be doing everything in their power to support Swiftway. Instead they appear to campaign against. Kind of mind boggling. They're being handed huge investment that will improve the value of their property and decide to say no!

Banjoxed · 28-03-2015 9:04am

Aard wrote: »

A huge number of submissions appear to be from the Swords area near the end of the line. Given such huge investment, the comparatively low population of the area, and the few if any trip generators there -- imo the locals should be doing everything in their power to support Swiftway. Instead they appear to campaign against. Kind of mind boggling. They're being handed huge investment that will improve the value of their property and decide to say no!

The public inquiry into Luas Line B had several cookie cutter submissions from one area. Nothing unusual about that, unfortunately.

monument · 28-03-2015 3:38pm

From KildareStreet.com:

The National Transport Authority (NTA) has advised me that the business case for the SwiftwayBus Rapid Transit (BRT) system for the Swords/Airport corridor will be submitted in early April.

....

The six projects shortlisted under Phase One of the Fingal/North Dublin Transport Study published on 8th December are now undergoing further independent analysis assessing cost, engineering, environmental and usage forecasts. The National Transport Authority (NTA) have indicated that they expect to submit the output of the Study in early April.

That output will then require careful consideration in tandem with other analyses being undertaken, including the updating of a business case for the DART Underground project and the work being carried out in the preparation of a draft Transport Strategy for the GDA. I expect to finalise this review by mid-2015 in conjunction with the development of the transport strategy for the region.

Aard wrote: »

A huge number of submissions appear to be from the Swords area near the end of the line. Given such huge investment, the comparatively low population of the area, and the few if any trip generators there -- imo the locals should be doing everything in their power to support Swiftway. Instead they appear to campaign against. Kind of mind boggling. They're being handed huge investment that will improve the value of their property and decide to say no!

A lot of Fingal is car centric. The answer for many/most trips will be a car and it can be hard for some people to switch and in many cases the public transport options are at best mixed:

Commute to local Swords area: car
Commute to airport: car
Commute to outlining Dublin City area: car
Commute to Sandyford: car
Commute to Tesco warehouse off the R132: car
Shopping in Swords: car
Shopping along M50 shopping centres: car
Shopping in city centre: car
Children to school: car
After school activity: car
Visit to friend's house in costal town: car

I'm not saying it's the same for everybody but I can see that the public transport options are not very attractive and often very unattractive from the north-west of Swords to most of these places. Even if the bus is used currently for some trips by a household, most trips from that household may still be by car. A lot of these trips could be done on bikes but the cycling network is also poor.

For the record: I don't think the traffic impacts would be as bad as claimed.

hfallada · 28-03-2015 3:47pm

Banjoxed wrote: »

The public inquiry into Luas Line B had several cookie cutter submissions from one area. Nothing unusual about that, unfortunately.

My parents brought a house and were seeking planning for 3 houses on the site. The whole entire road of 20 houses had 18 objections to it(the entire road except my parents and the neighbour next store who built 2 houses on his site). Dublin City council/an bord planalta saw through every single one of the BS objections eg someone said the houses would block her sun light and give her rickets.

I imagine the NTA will see through most BS

clunked · 28-03-2015 4:19pm

Aard wrote: »

A huge number of submissions appear to be from the Swords area near the end of the line. Given such huge investment, the comparatively low population of the area, and the few if any trip generators there -- imo the locals should be doing everything in their power to support Swiftway. Instead they appear to campaign against. Kind of mind boggling. They're being handed huge investment that will improve the value of their property and decide to say no!

To be honest, a bus 'slow-way' is (and I don't mean this to be personal at all) a polished turd of an option and to me as one who lived in the greater Swords area for a number of years. It would be a complete waste of money. For me build a metro or Dart or invest the money elsewhere.

Icepick · 28-03-2015 5:59pm

The only important sentence in that document:

The Swords to City BRT corridor only provides an interim solution. A higher capacity rail solution is necessary;

Stop wasting our money already, scrap this and put all the resources into MN.

LXFlyer · 28-03-2015 6:31pm

Again, I think we need to point out that MN and BRT are not mutually exclusive. Neither of these proposals are about serving Swords and the Airport alone.

BRT will serve the entire Swords corridor, while MN will serve Swords, the Airport, and the Ballymun corridor.

They are about providing a high frequency service along the entire corridor - not just the end points.

People seem completely blinkered to this.

Swiftway - Dublin's first bus rapid transit route - detailed plans released

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