Heat Pumps - post here.

Curious Geroge · 11-12-2014 9:22pm

nealger wrote: »

See screenshot of heating curve. Should i change or not considering the weather lately

What system is this image off?

Condenser · 11-12-2014 11:57pm

nealger wrote: »

See screenshot of heating curve. Should i change or not considering the weather lately

Whether you should change the heat curve or not depends on whether the house is reaching the temperature currently set. If the system is set for 21 but only reaching 19 then the heat curve is too low. If its reaching temp and you're feeling cold your temp is set too low for your needs. You shouldn't really have stats when running weather comp as it distorts temperatures so the machine is getting conflicting temps as the stats open and close. It also affects flow rates.
What heat curve you need depends on the house and the design of the ufh.

nakom · 17-12-2014 2:12pm

Hi there,

I have an A2W dimplex pump with rads installed on my new house (about 115 sqm) but I'm not too happy with the heating produced.
It might takes 5/6 hours to go from 13C to 18C.
The plumber told me that I should always keep the pump on and regulate the temperature with the thermostats.
I'm afraid that the bill will be quite expensive if I do so.
Is he right? Is this the way these pumps work?

Thanks.

BryanF · 17-12-2014 2:27pm

nakom wrote: »

Hi there,

I have an A2W dimplex pump with rads installed on my new house (about 115 sqm) but I'm not too happy with the heating produced.
It might takes 5/6 hours to go from 13C to 18C.
The plumber told me that I should always keep the pump on and regulate the temperature with the thermostats.
I'm afraid that the bill will be quite expensive if I do so.
Is he right? Is this the way these pumps work?

Thanks.

May I ask how long it takes for the house to drop by 5degs, typically your plumber is correct but we'd need more details. What thermostats have you?

nakom · 17-12-2014 2:40pm

BryanF wrote: »

May I ask how long it takes for the house to drop by 5degs, typically your plumber is correct but we'd need more details. What thermostats have you?

Thanks for the reply Bryan. I'm not sure exactly how long but I guess it would be around 5/6 hours. The house has A3 BER.
The thermostat is branded flash and has only the temperature setting

Condenser · 17-12-2014 4:00pm

nakom wrote: »

Hi there,

I have an A2W dimplex pump with rads installed on my new house (about 115 sqm) but I'm not too happy with the heating produced.
It might takes 5/6 hours to go from 13C to 18C.
The plumber told me that I should always keep the pump on and regulate the temperature with the thermostats.
I'm afraid that the bill will be quite expensive if I do so.
Is he right? Is this the way these pumps work?

Thanks.

You shouldn't really have a heat pump on rads in the first instance but seen as you have you may have to up the outlet temperature from the machine. Rads will need at least 40C plus in order to generate any heat. This will decrease the COP of the heat pump but may be a necessary evil in order to generate heat. A heat pump should be left to monitor all the time and turn on when required but seen as you have no thermal mass in your distribution system this is likely to cut in and out regularly like an oil boiler which with a heat pump is bad news.

nakom · 17-12-2014 4:14pm

Condenser wrote: »

You shouldn't really have a heat pump on rads in the first instance but seen as you have you may have to up the outlet temperature from the machine. Rads will need at least 40C plus in order to generate any heat. This will decrease the COP of the heat pump but may be a necessary evil in order to generate heat. A heat pump should be left to monitor all the time and turn on when required but seen as you have no thermal mass in your distribution system this is likely to cut in and out regularly like an oil boiler which with a heat pump is bad news.

Thanks Condenser. I raised the temperature to the rads to 55 but it's still taking ages to warm up the house. What exactly do you mean by "A heat pump should be left to monitor all the time"?
The pump has an on/off button on its panel and I leave it always on but in this state it won't produce any heat. Is this the monitor state?
There's another panel where I switch on/off the heating. The plumber was suggesting to leave always on this last one and then regulate the temperature with the thermostats. When you say bad news, do you mean that in the long term the pump will suffer from this king of use?

galwaytt · 17-12-2014 4:18pm

nakom wrote: »

Thanks Condenser. I raised the temperature to the rads to 55 but it's still taking ages to warm up the house. What exactly do you mean by "A heat pump should be left to monitor all the time"?
The pump has an on/off button on its panel and I leave it always on but in this state it won't produce any heat. Is this the monitor state?
There's another panel where I switch on/off the heating. The plumber was suggesting to leave always on this last one and then regulate the temperature with the thermostats. When you say bad news, do you mean that in the long term the pump will suffer from this king of use?

I think he means that you should leave your 'heating' always 'on' and let the HP monitor and adjust the heat.

If you're using the heatpump like a conventional 'boiler' then it's a waste of time and it will cost you money. A2W pump is not what I'd expect to see in a house with rads in the first place, but it's a bit late for that now!

nakom · 17-12-2014 4:45pm

galwaytt wrote: »

I think he means that you should leave your 'heating' always 'on' and let the HP monitor and adjust the heat.

If you're using the heatpump like a conventional 'boiler' then it's a waste of time and it will cost you money.

Thanks for the clarification. I'll leave it always on then. I just hope it won't cost me a fortune in bills!

BryanF · 17-12-2014 5:11pm

nakom wrote: »

Thanks for the reply Bryan. I'm not sure exactly how long but I guess it would be around 5/6 hours. The house has A3 BER.
The thermostat is branded flash and has only the temperature setting

Jasus 1deg per hour.. that's a lot of heat loss in a new house.

Condenser · 17-12-2014 10:36pm

nakom wrote: »

Thanks Condenser. I raised the temperature to the rads to 55 but it's still taking ages to warm up the house. What exactly do you mean by "A heat pump should be left to monitor all the time"?
The pump has an on/off button on its panel and I leave it always on but in this state it won't produce any heat. Is this the monitor state?
There's another panel where I switch on/off the heating. The plumber was suggesting to leave always on this last one and then regulate the temperature with the thermostats. When you say bad news, do you mean that in the long term the pump will suffer from this king of use?

You're not in a good position here. With the outlet at 55c your COP will be down 50% and I doubt it was good to start with. If you get cold weather like last week it will be even worse. Your compressor is only going to last about 6yrs running those temps also and you'll have costs equal to or worse than oil. Did you decide to install this yourself or did you buy the house with it in it? I'd like to say your plumber screwed you but the reality is, like the vast mojority of installers, he probably hasn't a clue whether hes done right or wrong cos he doesn't have the first clue how the system works in the first place.
Your controls sound terrible too and if you read my posts earlier in this thread three of the most important factors in a succesful heat pump are distribution system, installer knowledge and good controls. You've got a bit of a perfect storm going on unfortunately.

nakom · 18-12-2014 2:33pm

Condenser wrote: »

You're not in a good position here. With the outlet at 55c your COP will be down 50% and I doubt it was good to start with. If you get cold weather like last week it will be even worse. Your compressor is only going to last about 6yrs running those temps also and you'll have costs equal to or worse than oil. Did you decide to install this yourself or did you buy the house with it in it? I'd like to say your plumber screwed you but the reality is, like the vast mojority of installers, he probably hasn't a clue whether hes done right or wrong cos he doesn't have the first clue how the system works in the first place.
Your controls sound terrible too and if you read my posts earlier in this thread three of the most important factors in a succesful heat pump are distribution system, installer knowledge and good controls. You've got a bit of a perfect storm going on unfortunately.

When I bought the house everything was already there.
Is there any way to get the compressor to last longer?
Would replacing rads with the so called smart rads do any better?
If indeed the compressor is going to last around 6 years, what would be the best solution after that?
Would a G2W pump be more efficient or it doesn't make any difference until I get UFH?

Condenser · 18-12-2014 7:34pm

nakom wrote: »

When I bought the house everything was already there.
Is there any way to get the compressor to last longer?
Would replacing rads with the so called smart rads do any better?
If indeed the compressor is going to last around 6 years, what would be the best solution after that?
Would a G2W pump be more efficient or it doesn't make any difference until I get UFH?

Yes you would be better to change the rads to smartrads and fit a buffer store between the heat pump and the rads. You could then run at temps below 40C and your compressor will last longer. Your controls would need to be looked at too.

MicktheMan · 18-12-2014 9:41pm

nakom wrote: »

I'm not sure exactly how long but I guess it would be around 5/6 hours. The house has A3 BER.

1 degC drop in temperature per hour ... how can this be an A3?

Goes to show really how useless and unfit for purpose the BER system really is!

nakom, if I were you I would try to understand the cause of the massive heat loss in the house and address this first before addressing the heat distribution system because if the heat loss is reduced significantly, the heating system (no matter what type) has to do a lot less work as a result.

Rhue15 · 11-01-2015 1:04am

I am about to undertake a building project. I don't even know if those are the correct terms in the title of the post but I am looking for any information on geothermal heating pros and cons (vertical bore) vs air to water? Has anyone any experience. I'll be based in the Northwest, not sure if climate variations have any bearing??
Any information, experience or advice appreciated! Thanks a million.

hexosan · 11-01-2015 11:07am

Type your title into the search bar as it's been discussed to death on this forum already

BryanF · 11-01-2015 12:05pm

Rhue15 wrote: »

I am about to undertake a building project. I don't even know if those are the correct terms in the title of the post but I am looking for any information on geothermal heating pros and cons (vertical bore) vs air to water? Has anyone any experience. I'll be based in the Northwest, not sure if climate variations have any bearing??
Any information, experience or advice appreciated! Thanks a million.

Threads merged.

Read this thread re heat pumps

Lemlin · 13-01-2015 5:32pm

Folks

My geothermal heat pump was installed in Summer 2011. The company who provided it serviced it in 2012 so I'd now like to get it looked at and serviced as it has been three years since.

Would anyone be able to pm me the name of someone who could do this? The company who installed mine are no longer operating. I wouldn't mind getting someone independent to look at mine anyway.

I'm in Cavan and its a Thermia.

MENACE2010 · 21-01-2015 11:54am

Hi
I have a different pump , i have set the temp curve around 27 degrees @ 0 degrees outside.
What you could do is to start low curve and move up slowly measuring the temprature in the rooms with the stats on high temp so that the actuators are open ( or remove them) .
What also might affect is the flow rate of the water through the loops . you can adjust that by turning the flow meter (transparent plastic with a red gauge in it). it could well be that the flow is too low I discovered that some of the loops upstairs were closed during the build and never openend again hence cold rooms

SeanieS · 26-01-2015 10:41pm

Returned from a few days away to find the 'next-doors' had mounted an air source heat pump unit 2m up on their gable wall - as far from their line of sight as possible, but in our faces every time we go out to the clothesline, etc. There's also a freezing 'draught' down our path, and noise that is audible in our bedroom opposite and in the nearby utility room and downstairs toilet, particularly on cold nights recently, and at other times too (maybe the defrost cycle?). The unit's facing grille is just 128 cm from our gable wall. We want it moved, but they won't respond. Of course, it's planning exempt, unless we can find a hole in the conditions - the only possibility is 'noise', I think. The data sheet for the model shows 71dbA and 55 dbA for sound force and pressure respectively. The threshold is 43db at our wall, or an excess of 5db over background - which we'll never get without their cooperation.... anyone out there with experience??
If things worsen, would I get away with putting a screen on our side of the party wall, and having it all the way up to screen off the fromt of the unit - which would then be 16cm away. The unit needs a frontal clearance of 30+ cm, so this screen will effectively 'screw it up'. Would we get pp for such a move, as a way of screening against the wind from the fans? .... desperate and feeling mad at "getting the two fingers" from our erstwhile good neighbours!!

yermanhimself · 03-02-2015 12:18am

Does anyone have an experience of this type of Heat Pump ?

MortgageBroker · 03-02-2015 9:03am

I have been trying to get somebody to take a look at my heat pump as our bills seem much higher than other people who use them (as in x4). Does anybody have a number of a person who will actually show up? I was in touch with a few heat pump troubleshooters who agreed appointments then never showed.

BryanF · 03-02-2015 10:08am

Does anyone consider noise when installing heat pumps? I was walking through a quiet estate last night and the hum from heat pumps plonked on garage roofs facing their neighbours was quiet loud. Must be the cold weather.. I wonder is this something that will become an issue with the sound regs? ( or subsequent ammendments)

MENACE2010 · 03-02-2015 10:40am

Hi
Noise consideration was not really high on the agenda , only when I reviewed the proposed heatpump by my Plumber and heatpump distributor I discovered that its was reasonably quite .. now as you state correctly the colder the weather the more effort the compressor needs to apply to work properly ( hence the efficiencies of an airsource go out the window when it starts seriously getting frosty) . Our heatpump increased in noise over the last cold nights as we are quite rural and the heatpump does not disturb people ( maybe a couple of foxes)

couple of points though
- don't mount the heat pump on your exterior wall , vibration will radiate through the house , ours stands on its own
- don't place it to far our of your house, heatloss is imminent unless you use a zero heatloss pipe = serious money

Condenser · 03-02-2015 1:14pm

BryanF wrote: »

Does anyone consider noise when installing heat pumps? I was walking through a quiet estate last night and the hum from heat pumps plonked on garage roofs facing their neighbours was quiet loud. Must be the cold weather.. I wonder is this something that will become an issue with the sound regs? ( or subsequent ammendments)

Its a huge issue with air to water, in estates especially. There have been 1,000's of units in Germany that had to be removed because cumulatively they broke noise regulations.

SeanieS · 03-02-2015 9:47pm

I wonder how noise regs are enforced in Germany - nobody seems to know what's the score here? The term 'FROM the (neighbouring) house' leaves a lot to be desired. Is it from inside the house, from the nearest point on the house ... ?? The situation in the UK is sensibly covered in "MCS020: MCS Planning Standards - for permitted development installations of wind turbines and air source heat pumps on domestic premises".... no measurement required, just a straightforward calculation based on the manufacturer's data. If this tool was used here, the situation I described above would be shot down comprehensively - sound pressure at our wall would be calculated as 63db!

Condenser · 04-02-2015 12:42am

SeanieS wrote: »

I wonder how noise regs are enforced in Germany - nobody seems to know what's the score here? The term 'FROM the (neighbouring) house' leaves a lot to be desired. Is it from inside the house, from the nearest point on the house ... ?? The situation in the UK is sensibly covered in "MCS020: MCS Planning Standards - for permitted development installations of wind turbines and air source heat pumps on domestic premises".... no measurement required, just a straightforward calculation based on the manufacturer's data. If this tool was used here, the situation I described above would be shot down comprehensively - sound pressure at our wall would be calculated as 63db!

I'm not sure how its policed but no one should be allowed to inflict themselves on their neighbours in the way that yours have. If they caught the garden hose and sprayed it over your wall all day you can be sure it would be stopped. They're doing practically the same to you and increasing the heatloss from your house with the constant supercold air being driven at your gable. Even on mild days that wall will be cold.
If you can get the air to short cycle and recirculate though the coil it will be a block of ice in a matter of hours. I certainly wouldn't put up with it.

SeanieS · 04-02-2015 8:20pm

Thanks for that ..... I hadn't actually thought of the 'cold wall' issue. Something else to put into my quantification of the 'problem', before deciding on the next step.

murphaph · 04-02-2015 9:23pm

I'm afraid this problem is not regulated at all in Germany either. There's even a campaign website to try to get some regulation in this area. They can be bloody loud in a quiet estate.

speedstar500 · 16-02-2015 2:09pm

Hi, Can anyone advise on the best brand/model of air to water pump? I have received 4 quotations all of which advise a 14kw pump but all brands are different and there is a €5,000 difference form cheapest to most expensive. Brands quoted were Panasonic, danfoss, dimplex and hitachi.

Many thanks

Heat Pumps - post here.

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