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12 Reported Murdered at Charlie Hebdo by Islamists

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  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 13,018 ✭✭✭✭jank


    What do you expect from someone with a Peter Hitchens quote in his signature?


    Hello, I am here. Pleased to meat you...


  • Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,462 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    katydid wrote: »
    All religions are religions of peace. The religion is not responsible for those who abuse it.

    even the religions that state certain individuals should be put to death or harmed in their super special writings by their gods?

    how is that peaceful exactly? peaceful as long as your not one of those individuals and you follow the religions rules?
    :confused:

    You've a very funny outlook on whats peaceful, I suggest you perhaps rethink your comment as its rather misleading to claim all religions are peaceful.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 13,018 ✭✭✭✭jank


    A bit OT but someone decided to bring the liberals into it as usual.
    Sometimes I wonder if there is a weekly meeting of people who decide how everything that has happened in the past week can be blamed on liberals.

    You are right it is OTT as the article is not blaming liberals for this specific event. Maybe read it first as its content is very much of the same vein as Robin's article, I can be a lightening rod if you want me to be.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 13,018 ✭✭✭✭jank


    http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/2015/01/charlie-hebdo-the-truths-that-ought-to-be-self-evident-but-still-arent/

    Article from the Spectator (Don't worry, its written by the left wing Guardian columnist Nick Cohen, so you are safe.) following a similar text from the FP article.

    Excellant ten points made at the bottom and the feedback from the FT is very telling.

    Although saying that would the Guardian who the author writes for print those cartoons? He takes aim at the FT but maybe he should look at his primary employer.
    Religious murderers gunned down European freedom in Paris today. Tonight everyone is defiant. I am just back from a ‘Je suis Charlie’ vigil in Trafalgar Square, and the solidarity was good to see. I fear it won’t last. I may be wrong. Perhaps tomorrow’s papers and news programmes will prove their commitment to freedom by republishing the Charlie Hebdo cartoons.

    But I doubt they will even have the courage to admit that they are too scared to show them. Instead we will have insidious articles, which condemn freedom of speech as a provocation and make weasel excuses for murder without having the guts to admit it.

    Tony Barber, Europe editor of the Financial Times was first out of the blocks:

    ‘Charlie Hebdo is a bastion of the French tradition of hard-hitting satire. It has a long record of mocking, baiting and needling Muslims.’

    The writer forgot to add that Charlie Hebdo has a long record of mocking, baiting and needling everyone. It is a satirical magazine in a free country: that is what it does.

    ‘Two years ago the magazine published a 65-page strip cartoon book portraying the Prophet’s life. And this week it gave special coverage to Soumission (“Submission”), a new novel by Michel Houellebecq, the idiosyncratic author, which depicts France in the grip of an Islamic regime led by a Muslim president.’

    Notice the unconscious stereotyping as the charge sheet lengthens. Liberal Muslims I know would not dream of murdering cartoonists for offending ‘the Prophet’. Many of them are writing tonight denouncing the crime. All of them know that Charlie Hebdo’s enemies are their enemies too. Yet to the Financial Times, they are equally offended by a small French magazine, and equally supportive of assassination.

    Oblivious to its own prejudices he continues

    ‘This is not in the slightest to condone the murderers, who must be caught and punished, or to suggest that freedom of expression should not extend to satirical portrayals of religion. It is merely to say that some common sense would be useful at publications such as Charlie Hebdo, and Denmark’s Jyllands-Posten, which purport to strike a blow for freedom when they provoke Muslims.’

    Does the Financial Times have subeditors? Did no one spot that, having begun by saying that it does not want to condone murder, the Financial Times moved in two sentences to saying that Charlie Hebdo’s satirists have provoked their own deaths. Apparently, they ‘purport’ to believe in freedom of speech – the hypocrites. If only they had had the ‘common sense’ not to ‘provoke’ clerical fascism, then clerical fascists would not have come for them.

    As there is much, much more in this vein coming, I offer you 10 truths that ought to be self-evident.
    1. A religion is not a race. Sometimes, not always, it is a system of violent beliefs that claims the right to subjugate others – most notably its ‘own’ coerced adherents.
    2. Undoubtedly there are white racists and Hindu nationalists who treat religion as a race and hate Muslims because they are Muslims. Their existence ought to present no problem to principled people, who should fight, criticise and satirise them with the same force and for the same reasons they fight religious obscurantism.
    3. Criticism of religion – including bawdy irreverent criticism— is a defence against oppressive power.
    4. In our time, the most oppressive religious movements are variants on radical Islam. That may change. You only have to look at Hindu fundamentalism in India or anti-Muslim Buddhist fundamentalism in Burma to see how. But for the present we must fight the enemies in front of us. What other choice do we have?
    5. It is not ‘Islamophobic’ to satirise radical Islamists and their beliefs – the main targets of radical Islamists include other Muslims as well as Christians, Jews, Yazidis and secularists.
    6. Even if in your confused liberal mind you think that it is, no one has the right to stop satire or criticism because they are offended.
    7. No one has the right to kill those who offend them.
    8. If they claim that right, they are the most deserving targets of satire and criticism imaginable.
    9. And if you do not then satirise and criticise them because you are frightened of ending up like Charlie Hebdo’s dead journalists, or of taking a whipping in a PC backlash, how can you in conscience satirise left or right wing politicians you despise, or the evangelical Christians, Jewish fundamentalists, Catholic reactionaries, Russian orthodox Putinists you deplore?
    10. Are you not saying, if only when you are by yourself and think no one is listening: ‘I will only take on targets that won’t kill me, but steer clear of those who just might?’

    PS Angry Financial Times journalists have contacted me. They are upset, not by the murder of their colleagues, not by the spread of censorship enforced by gunmen, but that my original post did not state that the comment piece on Charlie Hebdo represented the view of the Financial Times’ Europe Editor, not the all of the editors at the Financial Times. I have changed my post to make that clear. One cannot be too careful these days, after all


  • Registered Users Posts: 26,578 ✭✭✭✭Turtwig


    katydid wrote: »
    All religions are religions of peace. The religion is not responsible for those who abuse it.

    I strongly disagree. A lot of religions have nothing but violent imagery in their doctrines. It's one the reasons anthropologists believe that made them easy to spread. As violent imagery and endorsement of violent actions go the Abrahamic faiths aren't the worst. But religions of peace, when there are actually some e.g Sikhism. they most certainly aren't.


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  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,718 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    recedite wrote: »
    A cartoon of Mo as a paedo with his child bride is valid satire, but a cartoon of Mo shagging a donkey is not; it crosses a line IMO.

    I don't think it is black and white in quite that way. If the cartoon is being presented as humour, then if the intended audience find it funny and it is published in a magazine or forum that specifically targets an audience that would enjoy such humour, I don't see a problem. If however the medium of cartoon is being used as a vehicle to promote hatred of a minority in the guise of humour, I would have a problem with that. Similar discussion on the funnies thread awhile back here and feedback here.
    Of course, even if Charlie Hebdo ever crossed the line, the proper response would be a complaint under whatever incitement laws they have in France.

    You also have to ask why would an Islamic extremist even read Charlie Hebdo, other than to look for a source of aggravation. There's plenty of stuff out there in the public domain that I find distasteful and offensive, so I simply ignore it. And yet the haters keep on hating...


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 48,445 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder




  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,718 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    iSometimes there is a moral duty to mock religion

    Fair enough so, Ted. That article was awful confused shíte from an awful confused religious pamphlet. Duty done. :pac:


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,824 ✭✭✭ShooterSF


    katydid wrote: »
    All religions are religions of peace. The religion is not responsible for those who abuse it.

    Saw Ricky Gervais post this (but it may have come from someone else):

    It's easy to spot a religion of peace, it's fundamentalists will be extremely peaceful.


  • Registered Users Posts: 558 ✭✭✭clear thinking


    Religion is violent. If you are a non believer you are condemned to hell or its equivalent, god snuffs you out. Even the sopposed moderate gospels are full of implied and explicit threats that non worship and non belief spells the end of you.

    this is not an issue for atheists, but all believers believe that this is what will happen to you.

    As for Dr Ali Selim, the tcd times has published the cartoon so file a statement with AGS. Banning the Satire of religion should not be a prerequisite for peaceful coexistence with muslims


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    Turtwig wrote: »
    .. religions of peace, when there are actually some e.g Sikhism. they most certainly aren't.
    Sikhs ?? you mean those guys whose religion says they should carry a hefty sword/knife around with them, and every second one is named Singh (Lion) :)


  • Registered Users Posts: 26,578 ✭✭✭✭Turtwig


    recedite wrote: »
    Sikhs ?? you mean those guys whose religion says they should carry a hefty sword/knife around with them, and every second one is named Singh (Lion) :)

    The point was an ironic one. In Sikhism violence is "only" a last resort, yet it's fully justifiable. That's the most peaceful religion I can think of. It sure beats one where violence is basically mandated against others from the off. I do have faith that somewhere at some point in time there was a pacifist religion in every way.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    Two particularly annoying phrases keep cropping up in the British media when describing "French values"; One is "Aggressive secularism" and the other is "The right to offend".

    The thing about secularism is that it is impartial in matters of religion, so if anything it is passive or defensive, not "aggressive".

    And being offended is one possible reaction a person can choose to have, but ultimately their reaction should be more under their own control than the other person who is perceived as provoking it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 26,578 ✭✭✭✭Turtwig


    I really don't get how a magazine with only a circulation of 60,000 issues (population of France anyone?) is offending anyone. It's not like they go into a place of a religious worship and display their cartoons to the people's faces. You have the buy the magazine and f**king open it to be offended! (Or visit its webpage, same thing.)

    But, yeah, publishing those images all those years ago was provocative. :rolleyes:


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    Turtwig wrote: »
    The point was an ironic one. In Sikhism violence is "only" a last resort, yet it's fully justifiable. That's the most peaceful religion I can think of. It sure beats one where violence is basically mandated against others from the off.
    Fair enough, that's pretty much my own philosophy.
    Turtwig wrote: »
    I do have faith that somewhere at some point in time there was a pacifist religion in every way.
    I think the early European explorers did find some extremely pacifist societies on various islands, but they went extinct quite quickly after being discovered.
    Aggressive cultures/religions/empires waste a lot of their brainpower and efforts on military stuff, but on the other hand they tend to expand quickly and are quick to take up ideas and inventions from others.
    Islamist Turks and Christian Europeans took gunpowder from the Chinese and their firecrackers, and put it into guns, thereby giving themselves a competitive advantage.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,163 ✭✭✭Shrap


    recedite wrote: »
    I think the early European explorers did find some extremely pacifist societies on various islands, but they went extinct quite quickly after being discovered.

    Surprise!! :pac: Silly pacifists.


  • Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,462 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    recedite wrote: »
    I think the early European explorers did find some extremely pacifist societies on various islands, but they went extinct quite quickly after being discovered..

    That's cause they didn't believe in the one true "peaceful" god


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,718 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    Turtwig wrote: »
    That's the most peaceful religion I can think of.
    I do have faith that somewhere at some point in time there was a pacifist religion in every way.

    Not much violence in Taoism, probably why it largely gets overlooked. To my mind, all the Abrhamic religions are much of a muchness. Once you start talking about heaven and hell, gods and devils, you're already knee deep in conflict and vengefulness.

    Interesting article here on the possible motives for the attacks in France, where the premise is that they were done primarily to polarise the muslim and non-muslim communities towards further conflict.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 48,445 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    recedite wrote: »
    Fair enough, that's pretty much my own philosophy.

    I think the early European explorers did find some extremely pacifist societies on various islands
    Maybe it was that they found pacific islands and it got mistranslated...


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,205 ✭✭✭Benny_Cake


    recedite wrote: »
    Two particularly annoying phrases keep cropping up in the British media when describing "French values"; One is "Aggressive secularism" and the other is "The right to offend".

    The thing about secularism is that it is impartial in matters of religion, so if anything it is passive or defensive, not "aggressive".

    And being offended is one possible reaction a person can choose to have, but ultimately their reaction should be more under their own control than the other person who is perceived as provoking it.

    The reaction of some of the British media to this, particularly that of the Financial Times, is incredibly stupid.

    I think it's perfectly OK to be offended by certain things. I'm sure that most people find certain things offensive which others wouldn't. It's part of life though, and I would hate the idea of anyone's freedom of expression being curtailed simply to protect me from being offended. I'll get over it (usually!).


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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,247 ✭✭✭stevejazzx


    katydid wrote: »
    Why should an ordinary Muslim be ashamed of what some fanatics did? As an Irish person, I wasn't ashamed of my country because of what IRA scum did claiming they were doing it in the name of Ireland.

    The analogy doesn't quite hold up
    There is no devout doctrine of Irishness being forced upon any of us.
    A great majority of Muslims however profess great support and belief in doctrines that incite intolerance and even violence towards non-Muslims and or those that are alleged to have insulted or disrespected any tenet of their religion.
    And that's why ordinary Muslims should be ashamed - the sacred text upheld by moderates provides ideal breeding grounds and shelter for fanatics.


  • Registered Users Posts: 26,578 ✭✭✭✭Turtwig


    10906019_902362619798632_7852211437821679789_n.jpg?oh=ebaac6932a1333825db68445bb8cdfdf&oe=5541BC19&__gda__=1430174279_13776eb1609294de9a6884d8de3b51ce


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,351 ✭✭✭katydid


    stevejazzx wrote: »
    The analogy doesn't quite hold up
    There is no devout doctrine of Irishness being forced upon any of us.
    A great majority of Muslims however profess great support and belief in doctrines that incite intolerance and even violence towards non-Muslims and or those that are alleged to have insulted or disrespected any tenet of their religion.
    And that's why ordinary Muslims should be ashamed - the sacred text upheld by moderates provides ideal breeding grounds and shelter for fanatics.

    The "doctrine" of violent Irish nationalism was being forced on all of us by the terror and violence imposed on us for the years of the Troubles. A great majority of Irish people proclaim great support and belief in doctrines that provide an excuse for intolerance and even violence toward non-Irish.

    The key here is that fanatics - of any "ism", will take what is a positive phenomenon and abuse it. That doesn't make nationalism or Islam or any other "ism" violent or intolerant in itself.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    Turtwig wrote: »
    10906019_902362619798632_7852211437821679789_n.jpg?oh=ebaac6932a1333825db68445bb8cdfdf&oe=5541BC19&__gda__=1430174279_13776eb1609294de9a6884d8de3b51ce

    Is that a mockingjay? :)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    stevejazzx wrote: »
    ...And that's why ordinary Muslims should be ashamed - the sacred text upheld by moderates provides ideal breeding grounds and shelter for fanatics.
    Once when I was at a trad session in an Irish pub in London during the troubles, a bucket was passed around "for the boys" which everyone understood to be for "the ra". I pretended to put money in it (such is "community" pressure) The funny thing was, the people putting actual money in it were the people who complained most bitterly about the injustice of any general anti-Irish sentiment being expressed by the press, or whenever they were stopped and searched at the airport.
    So here's the thing, "moderate" Muslims may, or may not, provide some tacit support and cover for the extremists, but those few who vocally condemn the extremists are on the right track. And by doing so they also condemn the more violent texts in Islam, even if they don't care to directly admit that.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,351 ✭✭✭katydid


    recedite wrote: »
    Once when I was at a trad session in an Irish pub in London during the troubles, a bucket was passed around "for the boys" which everyone understood to be for "the ra". I pretended to put money in it (such is "community" pressure) The funny thing was, the people putting actual money in it were the people who complained most bitterly about the injustice of any general anti-Irish sentiment being expressed by the press, or whenever they were stopped and searched at the airport.
    So here's the thing, "moderate" Muslims may, or may not, provide some tacit support and cover for the extremists, but those few who vocally condemn the extremists are on the right track. And by doing so they also condemn the more violent texts in Islam, even if they don't care to directly admit that.
    There were plenty Irish people, at home and abroad, who vocally condemned the IRA. I certainly wouldn't have done what you did, and I don't know anyone who would.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭marienbad


    katydid wrote: »
    There were plenty Irish people, at home and abroad, who vocally condemned the IRA. I certainly wouldn't have done what you did, and I don't know anyone who would.

    loads of people did , you would want to be in a pub in Kilburn on a Friday night in the 70's to understand .


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,351 ✭✭✭katydid


    marienbad wrote: »
    loads of people did , you would want to be in a pub in Kilburn on a Friday night in the 70's to understand .

    I lived in London in the eighties, and mixed with plenty Irish people. Admittedly I never came across the kind of scenario you describe; maybe it was the kind of people I mixed with.

    If I had ever found myself in a situation like you found yourself in, I'd have been out of there like a shot.

    But I agree there were plenty people out there like you describe. My point is that they certainly didn't represent your average Irish person, who despised and condemned the IRA.


  • Registered Users Posts: 33,980 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Love is more powerful than hate

    334151.jpg


    That was their response to the firebombing of their offices in 2011.

    Life ain't always empty.



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  • Registered Users Posts: 3,247 ✭✭✭stevejazzx


    katydid wrote: »
    The "doctrine" of violent Irish nationalism was being forced on all of us by the terror and violence imposed on us for the years of the Troubles. A great majority of Irish people proclaim great support and belief in doctrines that provide an excuse for intolerance and even violence toward non-Irish.

    No there is a fundamental difference.
    Both are of course horrific and wrong - however they don't compare well.
    Misguided nationalists target a specific group(s) and base their beliefs, rightly or wrongly on actual events.
    Misguided religious fundamentalists base their beliefs on intangible ideas and target every single person that disagrees with them.
    These religions often claim perfection, infallibility and Islam in particular emphatically states the impossibility any compromise on any of its central or even peripheral tenets with the implicit and explicit threat of punishment for infidels. Moderates who uphold these outrageous ideals give a necessary shelter for the breeding of fundamentalism.


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