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12 Reported Murdered at Charlie Hebdo by Islamists

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  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 18,224 CMod ✭✭✭✭The Black Oil


    The attack is sickening. Satire and the mockery of ideas, political thought and religion is an essential part of free expression. Radicalised Islam's in-built intolerance is a threat to us all - the pic posted by MrPudding's sums up a lot.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,768 ✭✭✭Panrich


    Thats how I understood it too.

    It is a time and a place type of thing. You should be able to put something up in the funny side of religion thread including a picture of Muhammad but I wouldnt start making jokes about a religion during mass. People will get pissed despite any freedom of speech you think your have.
    h

    If I was a muslim tonight though, I don't think I would be lookingfor an opportunity to take further offence. Instead I'd be hanging my head in shame at what was done in the name of my religion.


  • Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,465 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    Shrap wrote: »
    He made one novel point though, and that was that he would like to be able to sue the cartoonists who disrespect his prophet. Sadly, that might work in this country :(

    If he gets his way on that in ireland then I want to be able to sue anyone that doesn't believe in fairies,

    Fairies require that you believe in them, so if you don't then you disrespect them.

    One thing I am curious about is I'm assuming is the chap on newstalk is likely in ireland right? And people in Ireland have no doubt said or made stuff that offends him (this forum for example), then why hasn't he tried to use the blasphemy legislation?


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 18,224 CMod ✭✭✭✭The Black Oil


    I've not seen the video that's circulating - one of the frames from it is being used by the print media. Can't imagine being that policeman on the ground, knowing what was coming. On the more positive side, I do like the French spirit in response to this, 'Je suis Charlie'. It was the same following Sept 11th - 'today, we are all American'.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,856 ✭✭✭Valmont


    Ok the world now badly needs another Muhammed cartooning spree to peacefully avenge these poor people. Such madness! :confused:


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  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 13,018 ✭✭✭✭jank


    Je Suis Charlie (Until Je Get Scared)
    Why do self-declared liberals cower in front of Muslim fundamentalists?
    The New York Times tweeted today that the satirical French magazine Charlie Hebdo, which found itself the victim of a gruesome massacre, “long tested the limits of satire.” I did not know that there were limits to satire or that the Gray Lady, which often unintentionally engages in the art form, had managed to uncover them. The implication here is one that will surely become as tediously explicit in the hours and days ahead as it is familiar: If you “provoke” Muslims by mocking their religion, then you’ve only yourself to blame for what happens next.

    As the British left-wing columnist Nick Cohen points out in You Can’t Read This Book: Censorship in an Age of Freedom, his brilliant book on free speech and the lengths to which liberal democracies will go to nullify or diminish this right, those who fancy themselves the most progressive when it comes to, say, mocking Jesus Christ or George W. Bush or Tony Blair will suffer no crisis of intellect or conscience in deferring to reactionary lunatics on what are the acceptable bounds of humor and good taste for dealing with the Prophet Mohammed.

    Some in the media are admirably honest about why they go mum in this regard. Stephen Pollard, the editor of London’s Jewish Chronicle, today explained that his newspaper will not run any of Charlie Hebdo’s notorious cartoons in its coverage of the terrorist attack on the French weekly: “Get real, folks. A Jewish newspaper like mine that published such cartoons would be at the front of the queue for Islamists to murder,” Pollard wrote on Twitter. I don’t blame him and nor should you. As he further put it, he doesn’t feel entitled to take the lives of his staff into his own hands to “make a point.” Media organizations throughout the world are now dealing with much the same problem, albeit without like-minded candor. (Britain’s Daily Telegraph, for instance, which has no problem pursuing Islamist politicians at home or exhibiting the war crimes of jihadis in Syria and Iraq, today blurred one of the Charlie Hebdo cartoons.)

    But now contrast Pollard’s justification with how Bruce Crumley, Time magazine’s then-Paris bureau chief, characterized the work of satirists after Charlie Hebdo’s offices were firebombed in 2011 for the ostensible “offense” of putting Mohammed in the editor’s chair for a single issue: “[N]ot only are such Islamophobic antics futile and childish, but they also openly beg for the very violent responses from extremists their authors claim to proudly defy in the name of common good. What common good is served by creating more division and anger, and by tempting belligerent reaction?”

    Openly beg. I wonder if Crumley will write that the 10 Charlie Hebdo employees gunned down today by men claiming (evidently in perfect French) to have “avenged the Prophet Muhammad” got what they deserved or were perhaps laïcité’s answer to suicide bombers. The Financial Times’ Tony Barber calls the satirical newspaper a “bastion of the French tradition of hard-hitting satire” in a sentence right before one in which he calls it a bastion of “baiting and needling Muslims.” Well, which is it? Hard-hitting satire or rank bigotry? This is by no means the only logical pretzel Barbers wanders into in essentially blaming the magazine for its own misfortune. He of course doesn’t “condone” murder or the curtailment of free speech, only “common sense” in editorial standards — because without curtailing free speech, one may invite murder. Got that?

    All of Charlie Hebdo’s staff, I think it’s safe to assume, knew what they were doing in deriding fanaticism. And they were proud of it.All of Charlie Hebdo’s staff, I think it’s safe to assume, knew what they were doing in deriding fanaticism. And they were proud of it. This deserves our respect. Indeed, if the tragedy in Paris right now can be at all leavened by black comedy, then the privilege belongs to none other than the paper’s full-time editor, Stéphane Charbonnier, or “Charb,” the cartoon signature by which he was more commonly known. His last graphic installment featured a moronic-looking muhajid saying, “No attacks in France yet; wait! There’s until the end of January to wish Happy New Year.”

    I suppose commentators will blame Charb posthumously for predicting his own death. Though he does nicely sow “division” between secularism and the worldview espoused by al Qaeda or the Islamic State, an organization which has done its part for the common good by raping Yazidi women, executing Kurds, murdering Sunni tribesmen, and calling for the extermination of all Shiites. But at least the Islamic State’s victims never drew a naughty picture.

    As it happens, Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi, the Islamic State’s self-proclaimed caliph, was one of the latest foils of Charb’s “Islamophobic” weekly, which may have actually taken a page out of the playbook of many practicing and committed Muslims who have mercilessly mocked and lampooned the “caliph” and what he claims to be his own purified version of the Islamic faith. And here I note a strange phenomenon on Facebook and Twitter for which Crumley and his ilk will have trouble accounting: Why are so many Muslims posting the “Je Suis Charlie” image that has become a token of solidarity with the slain?

    Some outlets are have suggested a link between Charlie Hebdo’s latest cover art and today’s events. The cover shows a wizened caricature of the French author Michel Houellebecq, predicting an Islamic future for France, with the caption, “In 2022, I will do Ramadan.” This happens to be the subject of Houellebecq’s just-released novel Submission. So even a derisory image of another French provocateur, one who has written and said unflattering things about Islam, might be enough to precipitate violence? No doubt critiques and furious denunciations of Houellebecq’s new book are forthcoming, too. But could it be that plenty of pious observers to today’s atrocity in Paris, on whose behalf Western commentators now claim to speak, have a sense of proportion and priority in what they choose to condemn on any given day? Are they somehow deficiently or inauthentically pious for not being “baited” into writing nonsense like Crumley or Barber?

    https://foreignpolicy.com/2015/01/07/dont-blame-the-victims/


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 48,478 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    It was the same following Sept 11th - 'today, we are all American'.
    i hope the french will be more considered than the US in their long term response. there are several good articles doing the rounds this morning pointing out that the probable aim of this attack was to turn the french against the muslim population which will serve to radicalise them - because the french muslim population is actually quite secular on average.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,399 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    jank wrote: »
    Why do self-declared liberals cower in front of Muslim fundamentalists?
    It come as a considerable shock to your monochromatic worldview that Charlie Hebdo leans a little to "the left" and some of its staff paid for their bravery with their lives.
    St&#233 wrote: »
    What I'm about to say is maybe a little pompous, but I'd rather die standing up than live on my knees.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 48,478 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    jank wrote: »
    Why do self-declared liberals cower in front of Muslim fundamentalists?
    i dunno, i reckon i'd be willing to cower in front of a lunatic pointing a kalashnikov at me.

    please note this is a comment made in jest and in no way is intended as a comment intended to add any logical points to the discussion, lest someone take me seriously.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,163 ✭✭✭Shrap


    jank wrote: »
    Je Suis Charlie (Until Je Get Scared)
    Why do self-declared liberals cower in front of Muslim fundamentalists?



    https://foreignpolicy.com/2015/01/07/dont-blame-the-victims/

    Just so you know, I was thanking you for the article, not for your comment.


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  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 48,478 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    eh, what was his comment?
    unless you're mistaking the subtitle of the article (which (s)he posted) as coming from jank?


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,399 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    eh, what was his comment?
    Possibly the subtitle of the text which implied that all "self-declared liberals" are cowards.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,163 ✭✭✭Shrap


    eh, what was his comment?
    unless you're mistaking the subtitle of the article (which (s)he posted) as coming from jank?

    Oops, yes I was. Sorry Jank. Humble apologies.

    Dodgy title for the article then.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,113 ✭✭✭shruikan2553


    A bit OT but someone decided to bring the liberals into it as usual.
    Sometimes I wonder if there is a weekly meeting of people who decide how everything that has happened in the past week can be blamed on liberals.

    Dominos got my order wrong? Damn you liberals!


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,399 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Sometimes I wonder if there is a weekly meeting of people who decide how everything that has happened in the past week can be blamed on liberals.
    As somebody once said, if one's only tool is a hammer, then every problem looks like a nail.
    Dominos got my order wrong? Damn you liberals!
    Off-topic, but Domino's was founded by Tom Monaghan whose liberal credentials are open to some debate.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 48,478 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    thankfully he is no longer involved with dominos so i can continue to order pizzas with a clean conscience.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,351 ✭✭✭katydid


    lazygal wrote: »
    And of course Islam is the religion of peace, lets not forget.

    All religions are religions of peace. The religion is not responsible for those who abuse it.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,351 ✭✭✭katydid


    Cabaal wrote: »
    It's very easy for these people to justify what they are doing is right, its easy when you claim God is on your side and you decide what God thinks and decides. All religions do this to one degree or another.

    It doesn't have to be God. People have taken a similar stance using one "ism" or the other as justification.

    Religion isn't the issue here, but the arrogance of people who think that any belief system or political ideology is more important than people's lives and human rights.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 48,478 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder


    that's quite a humanist stance for a defence of religion.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,536 ✭✭✭swampgas


    katydid wrote: »
    It doesn't have to be God. People have taken a similar stance using one "ism" or the other as justification.

    Religion isn't the issue here, but the arrogance of people who think that any belief system or political ideology is more important than people's lives and human rights.

    The problem here though is that quite a few religious "isms" encourage such an arrogant stance, in fact many of them insist on it.


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  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,351 ✭✭✭katydid


    Panrich wrote: »
    h

    If I was a muslim tonight though, I don't think I would be lookingfor an opportunity to take further offence. Instead I'd be hanging my head in shame at what was done in the name of my religion.

    Why should an ordinary Muslim be ashamed of what some fanatics did? As an Irish person, I wasn't ashamed of my country because of what IRA scum did claiming they were doing it in the name of Ireland.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,351 ✭✭✭katydid


    that's quite a humanist stance for a defence of religion.

    The two aren't incompatible.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,351 ✭✭✭katydid


    swampgas wrote: »
    The problem here though is that quite a few religious "isms" encourage such an arrogant stance, in fact many of them insist on it.

    As do other "isms".


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,844 ✭✭✭✭PopePalpatine


    robindch wrote: »
    Possibly the subtitle of the text which implied that all "self-declared liberals" are cowards.

    What do you expect from someone with a Peter Hitchens quote in his signature?


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 48,478 CMod ✭✭✭✭magicbastarder




  • Registered Users Posts: 3,536 ✭✭✭swampgas


    katydid wrote: »
    As do other "isms".

    Well, traditionally many religions have an evangelical element to them, and also they often teach that non-adherents are of lesser value than adherents. Islam, for example, has different rules for non-muslims, but secular society would give equal rights to all regardless of religious belief.

    Just because many religious people are decent enough not to follow their religion to extreme lengths doesn't mean that the religion itself is somehow benign.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 15,719 Mod ✭✭✭✭smacl


    robindch wrote: »
    Possibly the subtitle of the text which implied that all "self-declared liberals" are cowards.

    Google says no. http://foreignpolicy.com/2015/01/07/dont-blame-the-victims/


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 13,018 ✭✭✭✭jank


    robindch wrote: »
    It come as a considerable shock to your monochromatic worldview that Charlie Hebdo leans a little to "the left" and some of its staff paid for their bravery with their lives.

    Eh, that is the title of the article in question not my words per say... ;)
    And yes, I did know that Charlie Hebdo leaned left as well.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 13,018 ✭✭✭✭jank


    Shrap wrote: »
    Just so you know, I was thanking you for the article, not for your comment.



    EDIT: Saw the post above, no worries. :)


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  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 13,018 ✭✭✭✭jank


    robindch wrote: »
    Possibly the subtitle of the text which implied that all "self-declared liberals" are cowards.

    Again, which came from the article... did you even click on the link as its right there on the webpage as the sub-title... so you can out the gloves down.

    That post was a total copy and paste job which I thought was appropriate and people liked hence the thanks. Would you have preferred I censored that bit just for the more sensitive among you?


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