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Shooting Forum - Firearms licencing information


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Gardai proposals to ban firearms

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    #362
    Sparks
    Registered Users Posts: 40,038 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    The problem with that line of questioning Grizz, is that those aren't statistics, but real people with families and loved ones and who - despite all the aggro we have with their bosses and the few who sell out their uniforms - actually served their country, or at least tried to.

    The most egregious thing about the Minister throwing this mass shooting stuff at us is that she's forgetting where that line is drawn and is talking about people as though they weren't people; we do the same thing and we're in the wrong fight, fighting it the wrong way, and without the resources the other side can call on.

    I posted what I did because it's frustrating to see that game being pushed by people who ought to find it obscene to do so; not to suggest we actually play that game ourselves.


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    #363
    SVI40
    Registered Users Posts: 601 ✭✭✭SVI40


    I have to say I agree with Sparks on this Grizzly. Pointing out these incidents the Gardaí have had with duty firearms will get us nowhere, and we don't have the publicity machine they do. We'd be on a hiding to nowhere with that, plus involving the families who have suffered due to these tragic incidents will do us no favours. We must be above this.


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    #364
    bravestar
    Registered Users Posts: 1,082 ✭✭✭bravestar


    Grizzly 45 wrote: »

    Loss and theft of issued side arms by negligence of AGS/PDF personel including pepper sprays and batons from AGS last week in Jobstown according to todays independant.Whats next some scrote helps themselves to someones SIG in the next demo?

    Incidents of misuse of AGS duty firearms in tense domestic situations?
    Happens apprently quite a lot and is kept hushed up.Are these people removed from active firearms duty?If so for how long?Do they recive psychological assistance?

    Its very unfortunate that we have to point this out to the PTB,but their records of negligent firearms handling of the kind they wish to deny us in the last decade is utterly and totally WOEFUL!

    grizz, I'm generally behind you mate but the circumstances and rumours you are talking about... Just don't. You don't know the facts.

    With regard to the suicides though, I think that says alot more about the mental health of the people involved than it does about firearms. I have no problem undergoing psychological assessment in order to possess a firearm in a personal or professional capacity and to be honest, think it would be a good idea.


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    #365
    Deaf git
    Registered Users Posts: 228 ✭✭Deaf git


    If suicide prevention was really a concern here every single GP and referee on our fca1 forms would have been contacted as to our mental health history. My GP was never contacted and I suspect that's not unusual.


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    #366
    Witcher
    Registered Users Posts: 14,578 ✭✭✭✭Witcher


    Deaf git wrote: »
    If suicide prevention was really a concern here every single GP and referee on our fca1 forms would have been contacted as to our mental health history. My GP was never contacted and I suspect that's not unusual.

    Contacting your GP would be of limited use to the Gardai anyway, your GP doesn't know what is coming down the road for you that may change your situation. All he could tell them is that you are/are not suicidal now.

    I believe doctors have stated they wouldn't release your medical file on the strength of an FCA1 form anyway so it's pointless really.


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    #367
    cw67irl
    Registered Users Posts: 1,165 ✭✭✭cw67irl


    Have to agree here lads, Slinging muck by referencing individual tragedies whether within the GS/DF or in Civvy Street is not a road to go down. There are plenty of shooters within the Gardai set to loose out if these proposals go ahead aswell. By resorting to that kind of muckslinging we could turn them and the general rank and file against us. Let's not forget it's not the 95% of the gardai looking for a firearms ban it's the 5%.


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    #368
    Sparks
    Registered Users Posts: 40,038 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    Deaf git wrote: »
    If suicide prevention was really a concern here every single GP and referee on our fca1 forms would have been contacted as to our mental health history. My GP was never contacted and I suspect that's not unusual.

    I'm pretty sure your GP isn't qualified to give a medical opinion on that though. I kindof think the PSI would be a bit miffed if the Gardai were to suggest they were...


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    #369
    Traumadoc
    Registered Users Posts: 2,523 ✭✭✭Traumadoc


    Strider wrote: »
    Contacting your GP would be of limited use to the Gardai anyway, your GP doesn't know what is coming down the road for you that may change your situation. All he could tell them is that you are/are not suicidal now.

    I believe doctors have stated they wouldn't release your medical file on the strength of an FCA1 form anyway so it's pointless really.

    We often will release medical information to the Gardai based on a signed permission to do so.

    There is no explicit permission on the FCA1 form to release such information, plus there is the small matter of our fee for such a report.


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    #370
    Traumadoc
    Registered Users Posts: 2,523 ✭✭✭Traumadoc


    Sparks wrote: »
    I'm pretty sure your GP isn't qualified to give a medical opinion on that though. I kindof think the PSI would be a bit miffed if the Gardai were to suggest they were...

    GPs as the primary health provider would be able to provide a medical report regarding psychiatric history.

    But if they did they would have to be aware of the consequences. For example, would a sporting shooter seek medical help if they were depressed , knowing to do so could result in the forfeiture of their firearms? I certainly would not.


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    #371
    Deaf git
    Registered Users Posts: 228 ✭✭Deaf git


    The whole purpose of asking for GP details and referees was to assist the deciding officer in determing-
    1. If the applicant suffered from an illness that might influence the applicant to use the firearm in a negative way or had a history of such an illness.
    2. The character of the applicant.

    Sounds reasonable.

    If the deciding officers never ask the GP & Referrees for this information I think it's reasonable to presume item 1& 2 above are not of importance to the deciding officer.
    I also remember something under data protection rules about collating and retaining non relevant information but that's another story.

    Of course a GP can't tell what is coming down the tracks, but he could raise concerns if the applicant had a history of self harm or some other pertinent condition.

    So, was your GP or nominated referrees ever contacted?


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    #372
    Grizzly 45
    Registered Users Posts: 14,957 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45


    Sparks wrote: »
    The problem with that line of questioning Grizz, is that those aren't statistics, but real people with families and loved ones and who - despite all the aggro we have with their bosses and the few who sell out their uniforms - actually served their country, or at least tried to.

    The most egregious thing about the Minister throwing this mass shooting stuff at us is that she's forgetting where that line is drawn and is talking about people as though they weren't people; we do the same thing and we're in the wrong fight, fighting it the wrong way, and without the resources the other side can call on.

    I posted what I did because it's frustrating to see that game being pushed by people who ought to find it obscene to do so; not to suggest we actually play that game ourselves.

    While I agree with the sentiments of fair play and this being fought somehow as gentlemanly by the Queensbury rules ,our opponents are utter dirty street fighters who wouldnt think twice of stomping on our heads if we went down.And that is an aspect we should consider in this .There will be alot of dirt thrown at us in the future by press and govt bodies once this campaign gathers a sufficent head of steam and I wouldnt be surprised if we are suddenly included in the "sinister fringe" or that we aren't being "infiltrated by dissident republicans" here on boards..,knowing the way the DOJ likes to cherry pick comments out of our discusions on various topics.:rolleyes:

    So I hope we are prepared for this,and we should be prepared to deliver the odd gut punch and knee in the nads ,IF it comes to this..

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



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    #373
    Grizzly 45
    Registered Users Posts: 14,957 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45


    bravestar wrote: »
    g

    With regard to the suicides though, I think that says alot more about the mental health of the people involved than it does about firearms. I have no problem undergoing psychological assessment in order to possess a firearm in a personal or professional capacity and to be honest, think it would be a good idea.

    Only place I know that does it is Germany if you are applying for your sports firearms cert and are between 21 and 25 for large cal handguns.From what i hear of it it is pretty much like a normal doctor visit here."How are you?" "Grand thanks."Why do you want a gun of this type.Well because,blah,blah,blah,yada ,yada,tick all the boxes rote answers." Unless you are sitting there drooling on your shoes going "Me want gun,gun good,me want gun!" there is little you can fk up on this interview or that the state appointed shrink can get out of you.So what does this achive??its a placebo to the German public,nothing else..

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



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    #374
    Sparks
    Registered Users Posts: 40,038 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    Traumadoc wrote: »
    GPs as the primary health provider would be able to provide a medical report regarding psychiatric history.
    History as in a list of treatments or reported symptoms or the like isn't quite what I was thinking of though - what I mean is, if there's no clinical history and the AGS asked for a medical opinion on the person's mental health, I'm not sure if GPs are qualified enough in psychology or psychiatry to give that medical opinion - I thought it required a psychologist and a period of observation first. (Though mainly I'm basing this off what you told me at the FCP public meeting traumadoc :D )

    On a side note, that chilling effect on shooter to seek help for mental health issues is almost ironic enough to be funny. Almost.


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    #375
    Sparks
    Registered Users Posts: 40,038 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    Deaf git wrote: »
    So, was your GP or nominated referrees ever contacted?
    My GP, no (and for years I didn't have a regular GP anyway).
    My referees have been contacted every time I filed an FCA1 and I've been contacted when acting as a referee a few times.


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    #376
    Sparks
    Registered Users Posts: 40,038 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    Grizzly 45 wrote: »
    I wouldnt be surprised if we are suddenly ... being "infiltrated by dissident republicans"
    I wouldn't be surprised either, I'm kindof expecting it after this. Doesn't mean that (a) I think we should do that, or (b) more pragmatically, that I think we could win if we did. I mean, you take the Minister to a range, I'll bet you could outshoot her. But you take her to a mudslinging match in the press, and sorry Grizz, but I won't be betting on our side winning in that kind of match. That's the politician's field of expertise.


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    #377
    Heckler
    Registered Users Posts: 3,325 ✭✭✭Heckler


    I put down one of the founders of my gun club as one referee for my last pistol licence application. Put down my sister as another.

    He knows me about 5 years from the club as a responsible shooter. They rang him 3 times to query my application. Licence granted so great.

    My sister knows me 41 years. No call.

    I think the whole referee thing is a nonsense. On the one hand they want someone who knows your character but is also not biased. You're hardly going to nominate someone whos likely to give you a bad reference.

    Even scumbags have friends that will give them a good reference.

    Another fallacy in the licensing system.


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    #378
    BoatMad
    Registered Users Posts: 13,702 ✭✭✭✭BoatMad


    My referees have been contacted every time I filed an FCA1 and I've been contacted when acting as a referee a few times.

    Me too.

    Note I was talking to my Super recently , who is a very reasonable guy. He saw the deletion of Annex F as a good thing, in that it gave him more leeway to consider firearms outside the Annex.

    Thats was his opinion


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    #379
    BoatMad
    Registered Users Posts: 13,702 ✭✭✭✭BoatMad


    Heckler wrote: »
    I put down one of the founders of my gun club as one referee for my last pistol licence application. Put down my sister as another.

    He knows me about 5 years from the club as a responsible shooter. They rang him 3 times to query my application. Licence granted so great.

    My sister knows me 41 years. No call.

    I think the whole referee thing is a nonsense. On the one hand they want someone who knows your character but is also not biased. You're hardly going to nominate someone whos likely to give you a bad reference.

    Even scumbags have friends that will give them a good reference.

    Another fallacy in the licensing system.

    I don't think you can characterise its as a " fallacy'. Its merely one of a series of character verification steps that are included, I see no issue. The provision of "references" is a very common feature of many types of applications ( e.g. see Job )


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    #380
    2011
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 12,554 Mod ✭✭✭✭2011


    If providing character references makes AGS feel more comfortable about licensing my firearms then I have no objections whatsoever.


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    #381
    yubabill1
    Registered Users Posts: 1,301 ✭✭✭yubabill1


    Received this this morning

    Mr Yuba Bill

    I wish to acknowledge receipt of your submission which will be considered
    as part of the consultation process on the review of firearms licensing.

    Regards
    Crime 4 division



    Submission here post #319


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    #382
    SVI40
    Registered Users Posts: 601 ✭✭✭SVI40


    Reply today from Deputy Alan Farrell FG Dublin North. Not very encouraging I have to say:

    Dear SVI40,

    I have been made aware of the situation that fire arms owners find themselves in. While I personally have no problem with gun ownership, I do believe that there should be very, very strict guidelines adhered to in order to obtain a license. I also believe that there is no requirement for handgun (small arms) ownership as they do not serve a purpose in hunting etc, the only reason a person should own a firearm for, in the country.

    My diary is full on Tuesday but I will do my best to attend, with an open mind.

    Yours sincerely,

    Alan Farrell TD


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    #383
    BoatMad
    Registered Users Posts: 13,702 ✭✭✭✭BoatMad


    SVI40 wrote: »
    Reply today from Deputy Alan Farrell FG Dublin North. Not very encouraging I have to say:

    Dear SVI40,

    I have been made aware of the situation that fire arms owners find themselves in. While I personally have no problem with gun ownership, I do believe that there should be very, very strict guidelines adhered to in order to obtain a license. I also believe that there is no requirement for handgun (small arms) ownership as they do not serve a purpose in hunting etc, the only reason a person should own a firearm for, in the country.

    My diary is full on Tuesday but I will do my best to attend, with an open mind.

    Yours sincerely,

    Alan Farrell TD

    This exemplifies the problem, target shooting has in this country and why we need better PR. We have too move the firearm debate away from hunting.


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    #384
    Cass
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 28,476 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cass


    Shows the lack of understandding of the current licesning procedures:
    Alan Farrell wrote:
    I do believe that there should be very, very strict guidelines adhered to in order to obtain a license.
    There already is unless he considers the signing away of certain privacy rights, a thorough background check, clean record, and 9 page application/declaration to be lenient.
    I also believe that there is no requirement for handgun (small arms) ownership as they do not serve a purpose in hunting etc, the only reason a person should own a firearm for, in the country.
    As target shooting is the only reason to have a pistol how can he say he sees no need for them in a hunting scenario? I know the position on Vets, etc. having them for humane dispatch, but they are few and far between.
    My diary is full on Tuesday but I will do my best to attend, with an open mind.
    IOW i won't be there and already have preconceived ideas, wrong ones at that, about guns.
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    #385
    Witcher
    Registered Users Posts: 14,578 ✭✭✭✭Witcher


    Christ, it would make you cry.

    I don't think target shooting with pistols is as well known as other disciplines, I don't know how many times I've informed people about target shooting who say there is no use for pistols over in After Hours only for them to say 'Oh right okay'.


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    #386
    BoatMad
    Registered Users Posts: 13,702 ✭✭✭✭BoatMad


    IOW i won't be there and already have preconceived ideas, wrong ones at that, about guns.


    yes but you cant really blame him, His view, re hunting is echoed by loads of ordinary people, who don't even know target shooting exists.


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    #387
    knockon
    Registered Users Posts: 516 ✭✭✭knockon


    SVI40 wrote: »
    Reply today from Deputy Alan Farrell FG Dublin North. Not very encouraging I have to say:

    Dear SVI40,

    I have been made aware of the situation that fire arms owners find themselves in. While I personally have no problem with gun ownership, I do believe that there should be very, very strict guidelines adhered to in order to obtain a license. I also believe that there is no requirement for handgun (small arms) ownership as they do not serve a purpose in hunting etc, the only reason a person should own a firearm for, in the country.

    My diary is full on Tuesday but I will do my best to attend, with an open mind.

    Yours sincerely,

    Alan Farrell TD


    Same chap pretty good at guidelines himself!! Maybe Mrs Farrell could attend?:rolleyes:

    Since his election to the Dáil, Farrell has been the subject of controversy as he hired his wife Emma Doyle as his temporary parliamentary assistant for a period of four months in the Dail just two weeks after she was rejected by Farrell's Dublin North Fine Gael Party branch as his replacement on Fingal County Council ...


    Will be one of the first to loose his seat in Dublin North by all accounts.


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    #388
    Cass
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 28,476 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cass


    My point is one of ignorance, not only to the sport, but to the law. The law says it can only be licensed for target shooting. So given that Joe Public won't bother reading the laws (i mean shooters don't read them at times) you'd think a man that is in politics, and his occupation revolves around legal matters that he would at the very least check a few facts before responding.


    It's like me saying i don't agree with bank robbery because the use of threats/violence is too much, while ignoring the entire fact that robbery is ILLEGAL. IOW he is calling for things that already exist. As we've said hundreds of times the laws in place (for beetter or worse) cover pretty much every eventuality. The problem we have is the implementation of them.
    Forum Charter - Useful Information - Photo thread: Hardware - Ranges by County - Hunting Laws/Important threads - Upcoming Events - RFDs by County

    If you see a problem post use the report post function. Click on the three dots on the post, select "FLAG" & let a Moderator deal with it.

    Moderators - Cass otmmyboy2 , CatMod - Shamboc , Admins - Beasty , mickeroo



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    #389
    BoatMad
    Registered Users Posts: 13,702 ✭✭✭✭BoatMad


    knockon wrote: »
    Same chap pretty good at guidelines himself!! Maybe Mrs Farrell could attend?:rolleyes:

    Since his election to the Dáil, Farrell has been the subject of controversy as he hired his wife Emma Doyle as his temporary parliamentary assistant for a period of four months in the Dail just two weeks after she was rejected by Farrell's Dublin North Fine Gael Party branch as his replacement on Fingal County Council ...

    good way to influence government TD's. throw sleaze at them.

    Jeepers, what is it with this mob, if you want a political forum, theres loads elsewhere, this is about licensing firearms.


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    #390
    knockon
    Registered Users Posts: 516 ✭✭✭knockon


    BoatMad wrote: »
    good way to influence government TD's. throw sleaze at them.

    Jeepers, what is it with this mob, if you want a political forum, theres loads elsewhere, this is about licensing firearms.

    The thread is regarding the proposal to ban firearms. Farrells reply on the proposal was ill informed in my own opinion as his party are about to try and ban my sport. My reply is not sleaze, its a fact.


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    #391
    SVI40
    Registered Users Posts: 601 ✭✭✭SVI40


    Don't worry, I have replied to him, and informed him that that his statement has dismissed many thousands of target shooters, and also give him a few points on the hoops we have to jump through to get a licence.

    When he was on the campaign trail at the last election, I met and spoke to him, and his views were totally different (no surprise there), and I have to say I did vote for him. If he carries on like this there is one house hold here who will not vote for him again!

    A visit to his clinic will be organised soon.

    SVI40


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