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Say a prayer for me now, don't save it until the morning after.

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    #62
    vibe666
    Registered Users Posts: 13,016 ✭✭✭✭vibe666


    Shrap wrote: »
    That's a mad story vibe! I mean, your parents in law clearly thought they were actually taking action and being as helpful as possible if they drove for hours to try and find a cure, even if it's one you'd have to believe in for it to work.

    There must be a difference between someone who believes that the action of praying/sourcing woo based magic medicine IS doing something, and someone who offers a throwaway "You'll be in my prayers" as an acceptable Irish catch all phrase that gets them neatly out of feeling helpless, but is there any difference to the (notional) recipient?

    Does it make a difference to you to know that they genuinely believed they were helping? I mean, compared to if they had not attempted to find a cure and still didn't show up to see you?
    is a stupid act less stupid because the person doing it genuinely believes they are helping?

    personally, i don't think so. they had an opportunity to genuinely help us in a time of great need and chose to believe in fairy stories. i think i'd rather they just offered to pray for us, at least they wouldn't have been wasting any of their own time.

    after we left the hospital, we had to keep him and ourselves isolated because of the risk of infection and how weak he was after everything, so we shut ourselves in the house and just got tesco online deliveries left at the door.

    within days of coming out of the hospital, we got calls from the brother and parents in law looking to come and visit AND trying to get us to bring our sick 4 month old son to the germ ridden 11th birthday party of his cousin and when we explained that we had to keep him in the house with no visitors, we ended up having rows with all of them over it because seemingly what they wanted was more important than the health of our child.

    at that point we were pretty much called all the names under the sun and they didn't speak to us over it for over 6 months. not a single call or any other contact with any of them.


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    #63
    sbsquarepants
    Registered Users Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭sbsquarepants


    shruikan2553 wrote: »
    I always found it odd. People who say this rarely even pray! Its like feeling like you have done something without doing anything. You're going into the hospital? I could offer to check on the cats but that requires effort, instead I'll pray for you.

    I often say things like see you tomorrow please god, or lovely day thank god or some such god thanking bullshít - it's just a figure of speech.
    magicbastarder wrote: »
    from whose perspective, though?
    they mean well. that's what counts.

    They mean well, they do know harm - but they also do no good. It's just thoughtless waffle really when you think about it.

    Did you hear Mr x has cancer?
    Oh really, i'll pray for him.

    Translation.
    Did you hear Mr X has cancer?
    Oh really? I'll have a word with the all knowing, omnipotent creator / director of all things, who has in his infinite wisdom already decided that Mr X should have cancer and ask him to change his mind cos I like Mr. X

    That's the thing about religious people - they tend not to think things out, if they really gave things much thought, they wouldn't be religious.


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    #64
    Kidchameleon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,482 ✭✭✭Kidchameleon


    lazygal wrote: »
    What do you mean? That a majority of people living here identify as Catholic? Is Ireland a white country?

    Yes.

    This is my second response to that query, I hope this clears it up for you now. Is there anything else about my post (#50) that you wish to discuss? Perhaps something more on topic?


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    #65
    Kidchameleon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,482 ✭✭✭Kidchameleon


    SW wrote: »
    says the person bemoaning people not reacting positively to "I'll pray for your child".

    Just to point out, I haven't suggested anyone react "positively". I've questioned why somebody would get offended. At most I've suggested a "polite acceptance". Certainly the OP punching a person in the face / I don't want F**cking prayers is a bit extreme wouldn't you agree? Indeed I seem to recall the OP rowing back on this comment.


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    #66
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 33,963 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Ireland has a majority of whites, that doesn't make it a white country where whites have more rights and people who aren't white should do their best to fit in or else STFU.

    Substitute catholic for white and it's equally true. It's an excellent analogy and shows up the sense of entitlement of catholic apologists rather nicely - thanks lazygal.

    Life ain't always empty.



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    #67
    Kidchameleon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,482 ✭✭✭Kidchameleon


    sbsquarepants wrote: »
    Translation.
    Did you hear Mr X has cancer?
    Oh really? I'll have a word with the all knowing, omnipotent creator / director of all things, who has in his infinite wisdom already decided that Mr X should have cancer and ask him to change his mind cos I like Mr. X

    Your looking at things through atheist tinted glasses though. Do you really think a person who truly believes in a god, who "talks" to him/her/it every day, who considers such a god a friend - would really think like that?


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    #68
    Kidchameleon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,482 ✭✭✭Kidchameleon


    Hotblack Desiato wrote: »
    Ireland has a majority of whites, that doesn't make it a white country where whites have more rights and people who aren't white should do their best to fit in or else STFU.

    Substitute catholic for white and it's equally true. It's an excellent analogy and shows up the sense of entitlement of catholic apologists rather nicely - thanks lazygal.

    Ok look, I was explaining why people assumed the OP would except the sentiment of a prayer. People assume things every day. You do, I do, we all do. If I understand you correctly, your saying that religious people should keep their religion to themselves? I disagree. I would prefer a world where people can be themselves without causing offense, be free to express their individuality. Now granted, I don't want people taking the pi*s, but really, is offering a prayer really such a bad thing?

    How is offering a prayer to a person forcing them to fit in?

    If you don't believe, you don't need to get all militant about it, just nod and forget about it. Its a better way to go about things for a non believer no?

    I'm going to quote my post that this is referring to for peoples convenience:
    Kidchameleon wrote: »
    The point is, weather you or the OP like it or not, we live in a Catholic country, people are just going to assume a sentence link "I'll pray for you" is appropriate.


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    #69
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 33,963 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Kidchameleon wrote: »
    If I understand you correctly, your saying that religious people should keep their religion to themselves?

    No. But they shouldn't impose their beliefs on others using the law or coercive social customs.
    I disagree. I would prefer a world where people can be themselves without causing offense

    Not compatible with 'Ireland is a catholic country' - unless the only people permitted to express themselves are catholics. Alternatively, we could accept that Ireland is a country containing people of many beliefs and none?
    If you don't believe, you don't need to get all militant about it

    If you do believe, you don't need to get all 'Ireland is a catholic country' about it, either.

    Life ain't always empty.



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    #70
    shruikan2553
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,113 ✭✭✭shruikan2553


    Yet again we have another one of these
    shruikan2553 wrote: »
    This appears to be one of those topics summarised by this:

    Is the person religious?
    Yes: Respect their beliefs or your a militant atheist asshole.
    No: Why does it matter? Just go along with it.

    Just as the non believer is expected to think that the other person thinks prayers help should the believer not think that maybe theres a chance that the person they are talking to isnt religious so by saying they are praying for them is equivalent to saying you'll have a chat with your neighbour about it? But as always if the persons beliefs arent written in a book they arent as important.


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    #71
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 33,963 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    shruikan2553 wrote: »
    Just as the non believer is expected to think that the other person thinks prayers help should the believer not think that maybe theres a chance that the person they are talking to isnt religious so by saying they are praying for them is equivalent to saying you'll have a chat with your neighbour about it?

    That's an epic sentence :p needs punctuation to aid comprehension -
    Just as the non-believer is expected to think that the other person thinks prayers help, should the believer not think that maybe there's a chance that the person they are talking to isn't religious - so by saying they are praying for them is equivalent to saying you'll have a chat with your neighbour about it?

    Life ain't always empty.



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    #72
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 51,713 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    Kidchameleon wrote: »
    Just to point out, I haven't suggested anyone react "positively". I've questioned why somebody would get offended. At most I've suggested a "polite acceptance".
    You actually said it beggars belief that a person would be offended by someone saying to a parent that they'd pray for the sick child.

    Nothing in the OP suggests that Orion was impolite to those who'd said they'd pray for their sick child.

    They were venting in the A+A forum. What's the problem with that?
    Certainly the OP punching a person in the face / I don't want F**cking prayers is a bit extreme wouldn't you agree? Indeed I seem to recall the OP rowing back on this comment.
    Of course punching someone is a bit extreme. A rude verbal response less so but could be understandable where a sick child is involved.

    If you can read this, you're too close!



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    #73
    CramCycle
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,477 Mod ✭✭✭✭CramCycle


    Kidchameleon wrote: »
    Your looking at things through atheist tinted glasses though. Do you really think a person who truly believes in a god, who "talks" to him/her/it every day, who considers such a god a friend - would really think like that?
    Well, yes, I thought the whole point is that if you are a Catholic you believe in Gods plan, or his tests. Asking him to change his mind is a bit counter intuitive.

    "Listen, I know you have this all planned out, and that I have sworn blind I trust you all the way, but how about this plan you ahve been let simmer away for what, 6000years by your clock, change a bit of it, just for me"

    The other interpretation, is that we were given free will by God, so the plan is a little bit more flexible, not sure why Mr. X gets cancer for that but I would presume, you let it pan out, and he will get to heaven if he sticks to being a good person or begs forgiveness, win all round, no harm no foul.
    Kidchameleon wrote: »
    If I understand you correctly, your saying that religious people should keep their religion to themselves?
    While not as well read on all religions, my understanding is that Christianity and a certain J.C. said that we should keep it to ourselves (the praying bit), according to at least some of the versions of his handbook. Never deny it if asked but keep the praying to yourself when your around other catholics, don't brag about it sort of thing. People do forget it is an apostilic church as well, so part of the religion is to try and get people believing what they believe, so this whole not forcing your views on others as a Catholic means by definition, your not very good at being a catholic in the first place.


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    #74
    Kidchameleon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,482 ✭✭✭Kidchameleon


    We all seem to have a different opinion of what constitutes "a catholic country". Is there a source where we could get a proper, standard definition of it?

    I used the term to illustrate why the op's associates assumed it was ok to offer a prayer.

    As far as I can see, none of the OP's associates are forcing the OP to conform. They are not using the law to force beleifs upon others so I dont know why some posters are bringing such issues up.


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    #75
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,399 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Kidchameleon wrote: »
    We all seem to have a different opinion of what constitutes "a catholic country". Is there a source where we could get a proper, standard definition of it?
    As it describes a human group, the term "catholic" can only apply to groups of people. "Ireland", however, is an island which is not a group of people.

    Less nit-pickingly, like most demagoguery, the phrase "Ireland is a catholic country" means what listeners want it to mean when they hear it.
    Kidchameleon wrote: »
    I dont know why some posters are bringing such issues up.
    Have a read of the thread - people do explain why they're unhappy about it.


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    #76
    SpaceTime
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,088 ✭✭✭SpaceTime


    I think part of it is slight social awkwardness and it's a culturally acceptable shortcut to express sympathy in Ireland and often in the US too.

    I wouldn't be overly harsh about it tbh they're probably stunned and think it's comforting.

    Basically all they mean is that they really, really wish & hope that she gets better.

    They're unlikely to be able to do much to help other than to offer support and sympathy and I think in 99.9999% of cases they're being very genuine.

    I just think you have to accept that many Irish people are brought up with a lot of religiosity around them. Even where they're not particularly religious it's very much buried in vernacular language and expressions.

    I hope your daughter gets back to normal soon and that they get to the bottom of what's going on.


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    #77
    Kidchameleon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,482 ✭✭✭Kidchameleon


    Good explanation rob. Catholic country was perhaps a poor choice of words on my part. However my point still stands. The OP's well wishers assumed saying a prayer would be acceptable, because a majority of people in this country identify as Catholic.


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    #78
    sbsquarepants
    Registered Users Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭sbsquarepants


    Kidchameleon wrote: »
    Your looking at things through atheist tinted glasses though. Do you really think a person who truly believes in a god, who "talks" to him/her/it every day, who considers such a god a friend - would really think like that?

    I think it makes even less sense if the don't think like that.
    What is a prayer if not asking god to do you a favour of some sort, cure your cancer, find your car keys etc? It is a request that he change his plan to suit you better. Which is fine - I would have no problem asking a friend for help if I needed it, but my friends aren't perfect beings, they forget things, overlook things and so on.
    If they were perfect omnipotent beings surely I wouldn't need to ask. It would in fact be an insult to their perfection if I did.


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    #79
    Brian Shanahan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,232 ✭✭✭Brian Shanahan


    Kidchameleon wrote: »
    How many people can practically help though?

    A lot more than you would think. Practical help doesn't necessarily mean help with the specific problem, as mentioned above, offering to feed the cat while the person with the problem is not around or to do other everyday tasks can often be far more helpful than you would realise, because it is one less worry of that persons mind.
    Should every person the OP bumps into do something practical to help?

    No. But every person who offers to help should do so in a practical manner, rather than the fcuk you version of "I'll pray for you" (which in over 95% of cases is essentially "I'd like to earn the kudos and respect that comes with being a kind and generous person who helps others, but couldn't be arsed getting off my arse, so I'll say a few meaningless words and claim my prize. Oh, you wan't actual help, fcuk that for a game of soldiers.")
    What should a person who cannot help in a practical way do? Is such a person an a**hole for not physically doing something?

    As I mentioned above, offers of help which appear somewhat tangenital to the problem at hand can actually be quite useful and helpful, and there are also direct ways to help which anyone could do, for example if the OPs daughter is stuck in hospital you could offer to visit her and bring her some magazines and keep her company for a few hours. But then again, you know this, you are simply putting up this non-argument because the constant mantra of "I'm an atheist, but religion, IT'S THE BEST!!!!!!!!" is your sole contribution to any thread on this board, so much so that I don't think you could change even in the remote possibility that you wanted to change.


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    #80
    Mr. CooL ICE
    Registered Users Posts: 17,502 ✭✭✭✭Mr. CooL ICE


    I don't have anything constructive to add, but I'm just after a Duran Duran binge which has slowly turned into a Tears For Fears, Depeche Mode and Human League binge


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    #81
    Kidchameleon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,482 ✭✭✭Kidchameleon


    Brian I'd appriceate it if you didnt put words in my mouth. Also if you read over the thread youll see that I agree with a fair few of your points. We as yet havnt established weather the prayer offering folks did or did not offer practical help. I have already stated that a prayer is of no practical value. But I havnt yet seen a convincing argument for a prayer being any harm.

    Why are you getting personal with me? I may not be part of the back slapping buddy buddy a&a gang and my opinions may be contrary to a few of the peeps here but thus is a discussion forum. Im here to discuss things.


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    #82
    Brian Shanahan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,232 ✭✭✭Brian Shanahan


    Kidchameleon wrote: »
    You and everyone else here know what I mean.

    Yes, you're of the opinion that Ireland should be a catholic theocracy where every person not a catholic should be ostracised and persecuted, and are deeply outraged at the fact that it is not, and nobody but you seems to care. This is despite your posing as a non-catholic.

    We know what you mean all right, it is your constant refrain.


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    #83
    TwoShedsJackson
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,438 ✭✭✭TwoShedsJackson


    People who do nothing but pray are doing nothing to help. Unless it makes them feel better about themselves, which, let's face it, is bugger all use to the OP. In Ireland people will use 'i'll pray for you' or similar to fill in that awful gap where you try to express how you're feeling to the person who is bereaved or has someone close to them ill or whatever. It's an awkward moment, and a nice, facile way to fill that gap.


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    #84
    CramCycle
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,477 Mod ✭✭✭✭CramCycle


    Nicolas Cage wrote: »
    I don't have anything constructive to add, but I'm just after a Duran Duran binge which has slowly turned into a Tears For Fears, Depeche Mode and Human League binge
    Can't get it out of my head since this thread started
    Kidchameleon wrote: »
    But I havnt yet seen a convincing argument for a prayer being any harm.

    Harm might be the wrong word, but it is inappropriate from both sides, one, for the prayee, in that JC warns you not too be the person at the pulpit making sure everyone knows you pray. Just do it, don't tell everyone, so they are going against their own ethos of the church. The second is that, in a time of need, people either need practical, hands on help, be it close to the cause of the need, or be it on the external of the situation (eg feeding the dog). If you cannot provide that help, then the most appropriate thing to say is either "I am sorry, I don't know what to do" in which case the person will be thankful you thought about it and decided you were of no use or they will tell you how you can be of use. If you don't want to help them though, tell them you are thinking of them/saying a prayer and just walk out the door.


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    #85
    recedite
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    CramCycle wrote: »
    .. the most appropriate thing to say is either "I am sorry, I don't know what to do" in which case the person will be thankful you thought about it and decided you were of no use or they will tell you how you can be of use. If you don't want to help them though, tell them you are thinking of them/saying a prayer and just walk out the door.
    That's how it seems to you and I, but I'm going to change around your quote to show how things might seem when the person needing help is a believer;
    .. the atheist might say "I am sorry, I don't know what to do" in which case the person will decide you were of no use. If you want to get kudos with them though, tell them you are thinking of them/saying a prayer and just walk out the door. Then they think you are making some positive contribution.
    Later when the crisis is all over, and God gets the credit for either fixing things or at least moving the situation on, which person is remembered as being the most helpful of the two?


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    #86
    Squeedily Spooch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 264 ✭✭Squeedily Spooch


    I'd liken "I'll say a prayer for you" to "I'll send you a facebook like" neither will do anything constructive or helpful for the recieving party, but they'll make the prayee/likee feel better despite having done nothing. And isn't that what religion is all about? Self gratification in the face of doing nothing?


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    #87
    Brian Shanahan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,232 ✭✭✭Brian Shanahan


    recedite wrote: »
    That's how it seems to you and I, but I'm going to change around your quote to show how things might seem when the person needing help is a believer;

    Later when the crisis is all over, and God gets the credit for either fixing things or at least moving the situation on, which person is remembered as being the most helpful of the two?

    That kind of person is probably idiot enough to think that prayer, or "healing" crystals or angels, is more effective than modern medicine, and in a proper medical crisis likely won't survive long enough to think that prayers helped them.


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    #88
    Kidchameleon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,482 ✭✭✭Kidchameleon


    recedite wrote: »
    That's how it seems to you and I, but I'm going to change around your quote to show how things might seem when the person needing help is a believer;

    Later when the crisis is all over, and God gets the credit for either fixing things or at least moving the situation on, which person is remembered as being the most helpful of the two?

    Good point

    Also

    Ive heard of cases where sombody about to take their own life would "hear" a voice saying "no" or some such. Now who knows what this voice is, perhaps stress but in any case, this beleif / false hope could just save them


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    #89
    CramCycle
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,477 Mod ✭✭✭✭CramCycle


    recedite wrote: »
    Later when the crisis is all over, and God gets the credit for either fixing things or at least moving the situation on, which person is remembered as being the most helpful of the two?

    Em neither, they might get a hello but neither will be remembered as being helpful if everything pans out OK.


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    #90
    sbsquarepants
    Registered Users Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭sbsquarepants


    Nicolas Cage wrote: »
    I don't have anything constructive to add, but I'm just after a Duran Duran binge which has slowly turned into a Tears For Fears, Depeche Mode and Human League binge

    What you do have though is questionable taste in music!:D


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    #91
    seamus
    Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    recedite wrote: »
    Later when the crisis is all over, and God gets the credit for either fixing things or at least moving the situation on, which person is remembered as being the most helpful of the two?
    God, presumably. Unless the praying guy actually sat down with the person and engaged in a good old pray with them, you can be pretty sure nobody remembers anyone who says, "I'll pray for you".


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