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Stop family from giving a religious funeral

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    #62
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 34,218 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    I do see the disrespect that you mention. But I think it’s reasonable to ask how this disrespect can possibly injure somebody who doesn’t exist? And why should we worry about something that cannot possibly injure us?

    Ah, the 'sure what's the harm' argument.

    Would you say that if it were christians being denied their desired form of funeral?

    Fingal County Council are certainly not competent to be making decisions about the most important piece of infrastructure on the island. They need to stick to badly designed cycle lanes and deciding on whether Mrs Murphy can have her kitchen extension.



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    #63
    shruikan2553
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,113 ✭✭✭shruikan2553


    This appears to be one of those topics summarised by this:

    Is the person religious?
    Yes: Respect their beliefs or your a militant atheist asshole.
    No: Why does it matter? Just go along with it.


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    #64
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users Posts: 26,174 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    Hotblack Desiato wrote: »
    Ah, the 'sure what's the harm' argument.

    Would you say that if it were christians being denied their desired form of funeral?
    I've said, explicitly and repeatedly, that I understand why the OP wants the kind of funeral he does, and that I think he should have it. You're coming across here as someone who won't take "yes" for an answer.

    If a Christian didn't get his desired form of funeral, I'd say that's every bit as bad as the OP not getting the funeral he wants. Happy with that?

    My point has been that it's worth exploring why it should matter that the OP gets the funeral he wants. And since a number of atheists contributed to this thread before I came in, suggesting that it didn't matter and that the OP shouldn't worry about it, I don't think you can frame this as a believer/unbeliever clash.

    To my mind, there are solid nontheist humanist arguments as to why the OP should have the funeral he wants. But when I invite people to explore those, to lay them out, what I get is chip-on-shoulder complaints about arrogance and disrepect. Is there nothigng positive to be said about this?


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    #65
    Caprica6
    Closed Accounts Posts: 706 ✭✭✭Caprica6


    If you contact the college they cab advise you how to donate yourself to them I think its through your will


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    #66
    kylith
    Registered Users Posts: 17,736 ✭✭✭✭kylith


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    If a Christian didn't get his desired form of funeral, I'd say that's every bit as bad as the OP not getting the funeral he wants. Happy with that??

    Just to be totally certain - you don't think that there's any problem at all with a religious person being given a non-religious funeral, and that anyone who would get annoyed about it should get over it.
    Peregrinus wrote: »
    My point has been that it's worth exploring why it should matter that the OP gets the funeral he wants. And since a number of atheists contributed to this thread before I came in, suggesting that it didn't matter and that the OP shouldn't worry about it, I don't think you can frame this as a believer/unbeliever clash.

    To my mind, there are solid nontheist humanist arguments as to why the OP should have the funeral he wants. But when I invite people to explore those, to lay them out, what I get is chip-on-shoulder complaints about arrogance and disrepect. Is there nothigng positive to be said about this?
    IMO everyone should get the type of funeral they want, as far as is practicable. I think that it is the height of disrespect to publically go against someone's living wishes regarding their remains. You are saying to all their family and friends "I know and you know that X was not religious and despised the Catholic church/was very religious and attended mass every day, but f'k 'em. Who cares what they'd think? They're dead".


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    #67
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users Posts: 26,174 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    kylith wrote: »
    Just to be totally certain - you don't think that there's any problem at all with a religious person being given a non-religious funeral, and that anyone who would get annoyed about it should get over it.
    No, no, my position is the complete opposite. As I have said several times, I think the OP should have the secular funeral that he wants. I also think that a person who wants a religious funeral should have one.
    kylith wrote: »
    IMO everyone should get the type of funeral they want, as far as is practicable. I think that it is the height of disrespect to publically go against someone's living wishes regarding their remains. You are saying to all their family and friends "I know and you know that X was not religious and despised the Catholic church/was very religious and attended mass every day, but f'k 'em. Who cares what they'd think? They're dead".
    I’m not saying that at all.

    What I am saying is that, given that the kind of funeral he has can’t actually affect the OP in any way, and given that as an atheist he presumably understands and agrees that it can’t affect him, and given that the denizens on this board presumably also agree with that, it’s worth exploring why it matters that he should have the funeral he wants.

    The reason it matters can’t be anything to do with the “rights” of the deceased person. A dead person doesn’t exist; how can something non-existent have rights? Even if we accept that giving someone the funeral he didn’t want is disrespectful, whose rights are infringed by this disrespect? What harm is done to anyone? The dead are beyond any kind of harm. So, while I completely agree with you that it matters that the OP (and everyone else) should have the funeral they want, we have to find some other account of why it matters.


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    #68
    kylith
    Registered Users Posts: 17,736 ✭✭✭✭kylith


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    No, no, my position is the complete opposite. As I have said several times, I think the OP should have the secular funeral that he wants. I also think that a person who wants a religious funeral should have one.
    As I said, I wanted to make sure of your position. When you said that "If a Christian didn't get his desired form of funeral, I'd say that's every bit as bad as the OP not getting the funeral he wants" I wanted to be sure if you were saying 'why should it matter if a Christian gets the funeral he wants'.
    Peregrinus wrote: »
    I’m not saying that at all.
    I know you're not, I'm saying it. I acknowledge that my use of 'you are saying' could be confusing but I thought it was clear enough from context.
    Peregrinus wrote: »
    What I am saying is that, given that the kind of funeral he has can’t actually affect the OP in any way, and given that as an atheist he presumably understands and agrees that it can’t affect him, and given that the denizens on this board presumably also agree with that, it’s worth exploring why it matters that he should have the funeral he wants.

    The reason it matters can’t be anything to do with the “rights” of the deceased person. A dead person doesn’t exist; how can something non-existent have rights? Even if we accept that giving someone the funeral he didn’t want is disrespectful, whose rights are infringed by this disrespect? What harm is done to anyone? The dead are beyond any kind of harm. So, while I completely agree with you that it matters that the OP (and everyone else) should have the funeral they want, we have to find some other account of why it matters.
    The only why is that it shows a family's regard for their members. I know that I would think less of a family if they gave their atheist member a religious service, or gave a religious member a godless send off. Everyone should get the send-off they want, because to do otherwise is to disrespect them as a person in a very public way and in front of people who know for a fact that the family is disrespecting what that person stood for in life.

    I think that the dead do have rights, but ICBW. If they had no rights then the government could just start taking organs from the deceased without needing an organ donor card, and sex with a corpse or graverobbing wouldn't be crimes. After all, they're dead - what does it matter if you stick your willy in them or take that bracelet? Who does it harm?


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    #69
    Cantremember
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,305 ✭✭✭Cantremember


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    No, no, my position is the complete opposite. As I have said several times, I think the OP should have the secular funeral that he wants. I also think that a person who wants a religious funeral should have one.


    I’m not saying that at all.

    What I am saying is that, given that the kind of funeral he has can’t actually affect the OP in any way, and given that as an atheist he presumably understands and agrees that it can’t affect him, and given that the denizens on this board presumably also agree with that, it’s worth exploring why it matters that he should have the funeral he wants.

    The reason it matters can’t be anything to do with the “rights” of the deceased person. A dead person doesn’t exist; how can something non-existent have rights? Even if we accept that giving someone the funeral he didn’t want is disrespectful, whose rights are infringed by this disrespect? What harm is done to anyone? The dead are beyond any kind of harm. So, while I completely agree with you that it matters that the OP (and everyone else) should have the funeral they want, we have to find some other account of why it matters.

    You were to,d a long time ago in this thread why it matters.


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    #70
    lazygal
    Registered Users Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    What about the Mormon practice of baptizing the dead? Anyone bothered by that possibility?


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    #71
    CramCycle
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,539 Mod ✭✭✭✭CramCycle


    I'll come back for their brains.


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    #72
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users Posts: 26,174 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    Cantremember wrote: »
    You were to,d a long time ago in this thread why it matters.
    Was I? Not by you, at any rate. All I got from you on the this subject in your post #46 was that "the point is that the arrogance of the Catholic church is mind-boggling" and that a desire for a secular funeral "simply extends the oppostion to supernaturalists to the disposal of your remains". No account of why any of this should matter to someone who is dead. As an explanation, you'll have to agree that it's lacking something.

    Besides, as I said to Hotblack, is there nothing positive to be said about this? No affirmative claim about the value of funerals for unbelievers? Consider the case of an unbeliever who doesn't have a chip on his shoulder about the "opposition to supernaturalists". Is it your position that it doesn't matter a damn what kind of funeral he gets?


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    #73
    old_aussie
    Registered Users Posts: 3,410 ✭✭✭old_aussie


    Stop family from giving a religious funeral

    After the medical school has finished with your body(that's if they decide they want it), have a non religious funeral.


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    #74
    Cantremember
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,305 ✭✭✭Cantremember


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    Was I? Not by you, at any rate. All I got from you on the this subject in your post #46 was that "the point is that the arrogance of the Catholic church is mind-boggling" and that a desire for a secular funeral "simply extends the oppostion to supernaturalists to the disposal of your remains". No account of why any of this should matter to someone who is dead. As an explanation, you'll have to agree that it's lacking something.

    You have been told by me. Very plainly. Even you can see the answer. What an extraordinary answer "no account of why it should matter to someone who is dead" when you have just read what I wrote. What is lacking here is any grasp on your part is that the thread wasn't written by dead people. Even a supernaturalist should get that. Perhaps you are disappointed because there has been no contribution from beyond the grave.


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    #75
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users Posts: 26,174 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    No, I'm disappointed that you don't appear to see any better reason for respecting an unbeliever's funeral wishes than that doing so represents "opposition to supernaturalists". I feel sure that there is more to be said on the subject than that; something less negative; something that might be relevant to an unbeliever who was comfortable about the fact that other people had beliefs which differed from his and did not characterise that as "arrogance". But clearly you, at any rate, are not going to say it.

    I am puzzled at your point that "this thread wasn't written by dead people". What is the relevance of that? I could see an argument that the OP's family owe it to the OP to respect his funeral wishes, even after he is dead, but I can't see any argument that they owe it to Cantremember or Peregrinus or anyone else who has joined the thread to respect the OP's wishes. We might have opinions as to the funeral he should have, but why should those whose business it is to arrange his funeral attach any weight to our opinions?


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    #76
    Absolam
    Registered Users Posts: 6,913 ✭✭✭Absolam


    Cantremember wrote: »
    What is lacking here is any grasp on your part is that the thread wasn't written by dead people.
    All credit to Halloween and all but.... it's unlikely that anyone in the history of Boards has ever failed to grasp that a thread wasn't written by dead people.


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    #77
    Brian Shanahan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,232 ✭✭✭Brian Shanahan


    lazygal wrote: »
    What about the Mormon practice of baptizing the dead? Anyone bothered by that possibility?

    The families of the victims of the holocaust, apparently.

    Although this issue is a perfect illustration of why all religions should be seperated from the public sphere.


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    #78
    Cantremember
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,305 ✭✭✭Cantremember


    Absolam wrote: »
    All credit to Halloween and all but.... it's unlikely that anyone in the history of Boards has ever failed to grasp that a thread wasn't written by dead people.

    Subtlety eludes you. To be plain, the dead are dead. Thinking now?


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    #79
    Cantremember
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,305 ✭✭✭Cantremember


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    No, I'm disappointed that you don't appear to see any better reason for respecting an unbeliever's funeral wishes than that doing so represents "opposition to supernaturalists". I feel sure that there is more to be said on the subject than that; something less negative; something that might be relevant to an unbeliever who was comfortable about the fact that other people had beliefs which differed from his and did not characterise that as "arrogance". But clearly you, at any rate, are not going to say it.

    I am puzzled at your point that "this thread wasn't written by dead people". What is the relevance of that? I could see an argument that the OP's family owe it to the OP to respect his funeral wishes, even after he is dead, but I can't see any argument that they owe it to Cantremember or Peregrinus or anyone else who has joined the thread to respect the OP's wishes. We might have opinions as to the funeral he should have, but why should those whose business it is to arrange his funeral attach any weight to our opinions?

    Yes. Typically outrageous condescension. There is no need for "a better reason" than that given. Who are you to demand such? That is a rhetorical question because the answer to any reasonable person is perfectly clear.

    This is typical clerical / theogical writing: nothing of consequence to say but nothingness piled together in a heap of verbiage. What you are angling for Pilgrim and the allusion is very knowing, is some sort of "discussion" about how even after we are dead we aren't. Verbal silliness masquerading as substance. The OP is alive and wants his own funeral his own way: get over it.


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    #80
    swampgas
    Registered Users Posts: 3,537 ✭✭✭swampgas


    I'm with Peregrinus on this one - I do think it is interesting to think about why an atheist might care about their own funeral arrangements.

    Personally, it's up to my wife what happens to my body. She can bury it, cremate it, chop it up for science, whatever. If she gets to do what she wants when I'm dead, that makes me happy now.

    However many people, religious or not, are concerned with their legacy - what mark they have left on the world. For many people their legacy is their children, for others, their life's work. I guess that somebody could be concerned that their funeral (if carried out against their wishes) could mis-represent them, and thus affect their legacy.

    IMO it's an interesting question, and goes deeper than funeral arragements.


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    #81
    Absolam
    Registered Users Posts: 6,913 ✭✭✭Absolam


    Cantremember wrote: »
    Subtlety eludes you. To be plain, the dead are dead. Thinking now?
    I suppose it must. If "What is lacking here is any grasp on your part is that the thread wasn't written by dead people." is intended to convey anything more subtle than what it says, it is truly subtle indeed. But since I'm thinking now, if the dead are dead, as you say, why would you imagine anyone fails to grasp that they're not contributing to internet fora?


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    #82
    Cantremember
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,305 ✭✭✭Cantremember


    Absolam wrote: »
    I suppose it must. If "What is lacking here is any grasp on your part is that the thread wasn't written by dead people." is intended to convey anything more subtle than what it says, it is truly subtle indeed. But since I'm thinking now, if the dead are dead, as you say, why would you imagine anyone fails to grasp that they're not contributing to internet fora?

    You are, slowly, getting there.


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    #83
    Absolam
    Registered Users Posts: 6,913 ✭✭✭Absolam


    Cantremember wrote: »
    You are, slowly, getting there.
    Well, that's an enormous relief. Sooo.... why would anyone fail to grasp that the thread wasn't written by dead people?


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    #84
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,401 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Cantremember wrote: »
    [...] Pilgrim [...] Verbal silliness masquerading as substance [...]
    Peregrinus's login is spelled "Peregrinus" - P.E.R.E.G.R.I.N.U.S.

    Please use it and avoid the juvenile name-calling.


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    #85
    sbsquarepants
    Registered Users Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭sbsquarepants


    Why not just leave them do whatever they want - it's hardly going to inconvenience you now is it?
    Personally speaking - I couldn't give a toss what happens, make burgers out of me and send me to Tesco for all I care!


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    #86
    Dades
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,558 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    swampgas wrote: »
    I'm with Peregrinus on this one - I do think it is interesting to think about why an atheist might care about their own funeral arrangements.
    Because it matters when you're still alive.

    Imagine you're given 6 months to live - that's six months thinking about your own funeral. If you were someone who rejected religion and had a healthy dislike of the catholic church, why should you spend your final months of life counting down the days until some guy in a smock you've never met talks about your life in between spouting untruths and fantasies?

    The older we get, the closer our inevitable end comes, and the more able to deal with it our loved one's will be. In the years (or months) approaching our demise, a non-believer should be allowed the solace of knowing they won't be the centre of a ceremony that goes against everything they believed in. That their beliefs won't be completely disrespected at the very last.

    It's not that hard a concept to grasp.


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    #87
    swampgas
    Registered Users Posts: 3,537 ✭✭✭swampgas


    Dades wrote: »
    Because it matters when you're still alive.

    Imagine you're given 6 months to live - that's six months thinking about your own funeral. If you were someone who rejected religion and had a healthy dislike of the catholic church, why should you spend your final months of life counting down the days until some guy in a smock you've never met talks about your life in between spouting untruths and fantasies?

    The older we get, the closer our inevitable end comes, and the more able to deal with it our loved one's will be. In the years (or months) approaching our demise, a non-believer should be allowed the solace of knowing they won't be the centre of a ceremony that goes against everything they believed in. That their beliefs won't be completely disrespected at the very last.

    It's not that hard a concept to grasp.

    Oh I get the concept, however I think there is a follow on question (obtuse as it might seem) to ask why it matters to me now what happens when I'm dead. I'll be dead, right, so why does it matter? So I think Peregrinus has asked a legitimate question, even if it seems self-evident to many here that such a question is unnecessary.

    It also matters to people that their children will be provided for when they are dead, that's easy enough to explain from an evolutionary standpoint. The religious rites part, not so much.

    Personally, I think this is much more about the relationship of the prospective deceased with his or her family (or whoever gets to decide what funeral rites will be held). Will our next of kin respect our wishes and memory? We can hope so, I'm not sure we have a legal way to force them to do so.

    .


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    #88
    CramCycle
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,539 Mod ✭✭✭✭CramCycle


    swampgas wrote: »
    Oh I get the concept, however I think there is a follow on question (obtuse as it might seem) to ask why it matters to me now what happens when I'm dead. I'll be dead, right, so why does it matter? So I think Peregrinus has asked a legitimate question, even if it seems self-evident to many here that such a question is unnecessary
    For me it would matter as it forms part of the memory of me that will live on in my family and friends minds. While I believe that's the end, I am happier knowing that my childs viewpoint of my beliefs is not skewed by this. I also don't believe that suddenly springing it on my children that I am still around and looking over them is beneficial. If they grow up to believe in such things, then they will understand that if they are right I won't be in a place where looking over them will be possible, and if they follow in my belief system, then they will mourn my passing but move on in a healthy manner, with hopefully positive memories to reflect on, rather than talk to me about when I am not there to listen.
    Personally, I think this is much more about the relationship of the prospective deceased with his or her family (or whoever gets to decide what funeral rites will be held). Will our next of kin to respect our wishes and memory? We can hope so, I'm not sure we have a legal way to force them to do so.
    I wouldn't force them legally, if they are the family i raised and the friends I knew, it won't happen, if they are not the family I raised, or the friends I knew well then, much to my disappointment, there is nothing I can do about it.


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    #89
    Vivisectus
    Registered Users Posts: 807 ✭✭✭Vivisectus


    If atheists cannot care about their funerals, then it must be OK to take the images of a deceased religious person, photo-copy the paraphernalia of some dreadful belief, and publish that far and wide combined with the claim that it represents reality. After all, they are now in whatever afterlife they believe in, and beyond the reach of any character assassination here on earth?

    Or would it be possible for someone now to be upset about the way they will be represented later, even if they do not actually around to experience this happening?


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    #90
    Mr_Red
    Closed Accounts Posts: 483 ✭✭Mr_Red


    Get the instructions tattooed on your body lol


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    #91
    Vivisectus
    Registered Users Posts: 807 ✭✭✭Vivisectus


    haha "Please dispose of sensibly when used up"

    "Kidneys: widely recycled. Brain: please consult local disposal"


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