Leinster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread V

Tox56 · 30-10-2014 9:54pm

.ak wrote: »

As much as I feel bad for Macken I also can't help feel it's his fault and nobody else's. He never learned the basics and excelled at underage level due to his speed and size. EOM on the other hand was a short arse and had to graft. It's easy to see why BOD called EOM his protégée, the latter clearly had to work harder and could fix defenders and punish attackers.

Macken basically needs to go back to centre school and unlearn all his bad habits.

Regarding the game I'm worried now I won't see it, can't get a straight answer from the bars over here if they can show tg4, and my wifi sucks for streaming.

Also - I was serious about that free ticket in the Anglesea stand. First to PM gets a free ticket.

I think you're a bit harsh on Macken suggesting that the difference between him and EOM was 'hard graft'. EOM rose to the top BECAUSE he had the silky skills and the step. Not many people would be able to match his ability because otherwise we'd all be playing for Leinster. Macken got there because he was physically gifted, but that's not to say he didn't put a huge amount of effort into developing his skills, he just wasn't as talented in that area as someone like EOM or BOD. We can put all the effort we want into something but only a select few have the natural ability to do it at that level.

.ak · 30-10-2014 10:22pm

Heroditas wrote: »

Can't wait to see the likes of Denton run at Te'o. I really hope Te'o send them backwards. It would really get the crowd going and do wonders for his confidence.

That could happen. More than likely he'll be turned inside out by Strauss or one of their backs. Still, if he can do the basics I'll be delighted.

.ak · 30-10-2014 10:26pm

Tox56 wrote: »

I think you're a bit harsh on Macken suggesting that the difference between him and EOM was 'hard graft'. EOM rose to the top BECAUSE he had the silky skills and the step. Not many people would be able to match his ability because otherwise we'd all be playing for Leinster. Macken got there because he was physically gifted, but that's not to say he didn't put a huge amount of effort into developing his skills, he just wasn't as talented in that area as someone like EOM or BOD. We can put all the effort we want into something but only a select few have the natural ability to do it at that level.

Maybe I am being a bit harsh but I still think eom had more work to do to get where he was. I don't think he was actually as silky as you suggest but he was certainly physical and punched above his weight.

Hagz I don't think I'm bring to harsh when I say he only had himself to blame. Things like fixing a defender aren't that hard to coach. I'm sure all the players and coaches around him have atleast mentioned it. He just doesn't have the instincts to position himself at 13 or hold a line. He's had a wonderful opportunity and I'm just afraid to say he hasn't been able to grab it.

Hagz · 30-10-2014 11:42pm

Well I would put a bit of blame on the coaches. Eoin O'Malley was 21 before he was exposed to senior rugby. He did his time in the academy before being tested at senior level.

Macken was thrown into his first senior game at 18, it was only 10 mins of rugby but it shows you how quickly they were trying to get him involved. He was thrown in again at 19 the next year and surprise surprise he broke his collarbone. His speed and power wasn't just making life easy for him at schools and underage level, he was hammering in tries in the 'A' games he played. He was in the academy set up for 1 year at 18, and then the next year he was on a senior contract. The Academy is where these young guys can work hard at improving the basics of their games without the pressure of being in the senior environment. I would definitley lay a bit of blame on those responsible for managing his progress.

Zzippy · 31-10-2014 12:02am

Swiwi. wrote: »

The worse thing about this game is the time! I was all set to watch Aki debut for Connacht, but I must admit Te'o lining out for Leinster is tempting too. In addition, Connacht have stuck Aki at 13, which is not his best position, so maybe my Leinster loyalty will shine though. Especially given I no longer have West of Ireland heritage...

You're dead to me Swiwi...

Eat My Point · 31-10-2014 12:14am

"He could be a natural successor to Jamie" Kevin McLaughlin talking about Jack Conan on the score.....didn't realise he was that good, excited to see what he can do now.

Heroditas · 31-10-2014 1:19am

.ak wrote: »

That could happen. More than likely he'll be turned inside out by Strauss or one of their backs. Still, if he can do the basics I'll be delighted.

Oh I'd fully expect him to get the runaround from a semi decent back but you just know there gonna send some brute down his channel and, as he's played league, he knows how to put in a big hit.

Fingers crossed!

former legend · 31-10-2014 8:38am

The Telegraph did a run-down of English players who switched from league to union:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/picturegalleries/9789857/Will-Sam-Burgess-succeed-in-Union-How-League-converts-fared-by-Gavin-Mairs.html

The success rate isn't great... but Te'o is going to buck that trend, right?

Podge_irl · 31-10-2014 8:44am

Eat My Point wrote: »

"He could be a natural successor to Jamie" Kevin McLaughlin talking about Jack Conan on the score.....didn't realise he was that good, excited to see what he can do now.

He has the potential to be very, very good. He's a seriously powerful bulldozer at the moment.

Uriel. · 31-10-2014 9:44am

former legend wrote: »

The Telegraph did a run-down of English players who switched from league to union:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/picturegalleries/9789857/Will-Sam-Burgess-succeed-in-Union-How-League-converts-fared-by-Gavin-Mairs.html

The success rate isn't great... but Te'o is going to buck that trend, right?

One can certainly hope.
For such a big position, especially considering what went before for us, you would have to hope (expect) that someone has seen something special in Te'o to take the risk.

vienne86 · 31-10-2014 9:48am

Uriel. wrote: »

One can certainly hope.
For such a big position, especially considering what went before for us, you would have to hope (expect) that someone has seen something special in Te'o to take the risk.

Yes, I'm sure he hasn't come cheap. Really looking forward to seeing him in action this evening.

justsomebloke · 31-10-2014 10:20am

former legend wrote: »

The success rate isn't great...

Stupid article. Every single one of them is pictured in an English jersey. So how can any of them be seen as failures? A true failure wouldn't have even made it in the English setup. There are alot of good rugby union players who don't flourish at international level so setting the bar of success at being a top international player is a bit rich. Yes you can say some were parachuted into the setups but they still would have been expected to have been some way decent after the conversion to get to the parachuting stage.

Also stop knicking Wigan players ya bastards!!!!!!

dub_skav · 31-10-2014 10:31am

justsomebloke wrote: »

Stupid article. Every single one of them is pictured in an English jersey. So how can any of them be seen as failures? A true failure wouldn't have even made it in the English setup. There are alot of good rugby union players who don't flourish at international level so setting the bar of success at being a top international player is a bit rich. Yes you can say some were parachuted into the setups but they still would have been expected to have been some way decent after the conversion to get to the parachuting stage.

Also stop knicking Wigan players ya bastards!!!!!!

Agree with this, you're setting a very high bar if you think that all being internationals and a number of them highly successful internationals is a failure.

Also, if you look at NRL converts - which would be more relevant - there are encouraging signs.
Off the top of my head (not going to put time into this) Tuqiri, Mat Rogers, Sailor, Brad Thorn and Sonny-Bill is pretty good company.

former legend · 31-10-2014 10:44am

justsomebloke wrote: »

Stupid article. Every single one of them is pictured in an English jersey. So how can any of them be seen as failures? A true failure wouldn't have even made it in the English setup. There are alot of good rugby union players who don't flourish at international level so setting the bar of success at being a top international player is a bit rich. Yes you can say some were parachuted into the setups but they still would have been expected to have been some way decent after the conversion to get to the parachuting stage.

Also stop knicking Wigan players ya bastards!!!!!!

I think "expected" is the key word there. Some of these guys were thrown in at the deep end in the hope they'd be OK.

Andy Farrell is the perfect example of a guy parachuted into the highest level of union based solely on his league ability. He had played 5 or 6 games of union, half of those as a flanker, when he made his England debut at centre. Everyone expected him to be great at union but it didn't happen (injury had a lot to do with it).

Joel Tomkins, Lesley Vainikolo, Henry Paul; all won England caps despite being pretty rubbish at union. I'd regard them all as failures.

justsomebloke · 31-10-2014 10:45am

All I want from T'eo this evening is to not stand up with the ball after being tackled.

former legend · 31-10-2014 10:46am

justsomebloke wrote: »

All I want from T'eo this evening is to not stand up with the ball after being tackled.

Or to boot it away after four phases.

Eat My Point · 31-10-2014 10:46am

Next time Leinster play Connacht I expect a mushroom cloud explosion when Aki and Te'o run into each other.

sydthebeat · 31-10-2014 10:53am

Eat My Point wrote: »

Next time Leinster play Connacht I expect a mushroom cloud explosion when Aki and Te'o run into each other.

Bundee Aki is not that type of player???
Hes very much a fleet of foot speedster and a good 4 inches smaller than teo.

for his sake i hope he doesnt get a full on whack from teo

connemara man · 31-10-2014 10:58am

sydthebeat wrote: »

Bundee Aki is not that type of player???
Hes very much a fleet of foot speedster and a good 4 inches smaller than teo.

for his sake i hope he doesnt get a full on whack from teo

The man hits pretty hard and if that hit isn't big when Henshaw hits him he'll know about it

Tox56 · 31-10-2014 10:59am

sydthebeat wrote: »

Bundee Aki is not that type of player???
Hes very much a fleet of foot speedster and a good 4 inches smaller than teo.

for his sake i hope he doesnt get a full on whack from teo

Yeah for context Aki weighs less and is 4 inches shorter than Macken, and Macken is still 10kg less than Te'o!

Eat My Point · 31-10-2014 11:06am

Yeah you're probably right....I wouldn't worry about the height difference though, Aki's not exactly skinny and can definitely make a big hit

Eat My Point · 31-10-2014 11:09am

But to put that in context if Aki is 4 inches shorter than Macken but only 3 kgs lighter doesn't that make Aki more solid than Macken? Taller doesn't necessarily mean stronger

Larbre34 · 31-10-2014 11:10am

Eat My Point wrote: »

Next time Leinster play Connacht I expect a mushroom cloud explosion when Aki and Te'o run into each other.

Nah, Te'o will just straight-arm him and Muliana in the one move and BOOM, Happy Christmas Connacht.

justsomebloke · 31-10-2014 11:21am

former legend wrote: »

I think "expected" is the key word there. Some of these guys were thrown in at the deep end in the hope they'd be OK.

Andy Farrell is the perfect example of a guy parachuted into the highest level of union based solely on his league ability. He had played 5 or 6 games of union, half of those as a flanker, when he made his England debut at centre. Everyone expected him to be great at union but it didn't happen (injury had a lot to do with it).

Joel Tomkins, Lesley Vainikolo, Henry Paul; all won England caps despite being pretty rubbish at union. I'd regard them all as failures.

Henry Paul won a 'Player of the year' award from Glouster fans and was short listed for a Zurich player of the year during his career as well at being decent at 7s. So if T'eo can replicate that level of failure he will be doing well for us.

Andy Farrell like Brian Carney were just to long in the tooth to make an impact were they changed codes but if they had transitioned a good bit earlier I would of expected better things from them.

Alot comes down to the management of the player when they transition. Parachute them in at too high a level and their confidence will never recover enough to make the switch. Also not having a definite plan for them doesn't help. In this regard I think T'eo has a much better chance then Burgess. I think Burgess is going to be a 'flop' given the expectations around him and Bath not having a plan for him bar being a utility player.

I don't think T'eo has that level of expectations around him from Leinster fans as we aren't a League country. Also he isn't being brought in in the hopes of playing International Rugby. So he has a lot more leeway to fail but to learn from his mistakes that most other converts don't get

Heroditas · 31-10-2014 11:26am

former legend wrote: »

Or to boot it away after four phases.

Ha! He won't get aa chance to do that because Gopperth will be putting snow on it

former legend · 31-10-2014 11:44am

justsomebloke wrote: »

Henry Paul won a 'Player of the year' award from Glouster fans and was short listed for a Zurich player of the year during his career as well at being decent at 7s. So if T'eo can replicate that level of failure he will be doing well for us.

Andy Farrell like Brian Carney were just to long in the tooth to make an impact were they changed codes but if they had transitioned a good bit earlier I would of expected better things from them.

Alot comes down to the management of the player when they transition. Parachute them in at too high a level and their confidence will never recover enough to make the switch. Also not having a definite plan for them doesn't help. In this regard I think T'eo has a much better chance then Burgess. I think Burgess is going to be a 'flop' given the expectations around him and Bath not having a plan for him bar being a utility player.

I don't think T'eo has that level of expectations around him from Leinster fans as we aren't a League country. Also he isn't being brought in in the hopes of playing International Rugby. So he has a lot more leeway to fail but to learn from his mistakes that most other converts don't get

I'd agree with nearly all of that; particularly re Burgess, the hype surrounding him is mental - he's already pencilled in for the World Cup XV so it looks like England haven't learned their lesson.

Re: Te'o, I think that the Leinster coaching staff have had him earmarked as a 13 from the outset and that should help him. Likewise, the fact that very few people had heard of him and even fewer had seen him play should mean very little pressure on him. In fact, given the initial reaction to his signing, a lot of people are expecting the worst.

I'd totally forgotten Brian Carney. Less said the better.

What I don't agree with is your take on Paul. He was good in fits and starts but ultimately he was a terrible convert. The fact that he ended up playing 7s says a lot.

Clearlier · 31-10-2014 12:13pm

former legend wrote: »

I'd agree with nearly all of that; particularly re Burgess, the hype surrounding him is mental - he's already pencilled in for the World Cup XV so it looks like England haven't learned their lesson.

Re: Te'o, I think that the Leinster coaching staff have had him earmarked as a 13 from the outset and that should help him. Likewise, the fact that very few people had heard of him and even fewer had seen him play should mean very little pressure on him. In fact, given the initial reaction to his signing, a lot of people are expecting the worst.

I'd totally forgotten Brian Carney. Less said the better.

What I don't agree with is your take on Paul. He was good in fits and starts but ultimately he was a terrible convert. The fact that he ended up playing 7s says a lot.

It's not a great surprise that most successful converts from league to union are in the back 3. There's (still a lot but) much less to learn for players converting to those positions than any of 9 - 13. I can't even think of one serious attempt to convert a forward. That's my big worry about Te'o. He obviously has a lot of the physical attributes but he'll have none of the instincts about how to play the sport. Even forgetting about body position in rucks think of simple positioning on the field. There's a huge amount to learn. The only way that I see for him to make an early impact sustained beyond Iestyn Harris length of time is for him to be used in rigidly defined set piece moves i.e. almost certainly crash ball type situations where the main skill to learn will be body position. If he can master a couple of those and then build on that foundation then maybe he has a chance but like with Harris if he does have an impact he'll be targeted and he'll have to evolve and adapt quickly. I'd have him out of sight playing with the A's for most of the season if it were possible.

the baby bull elephant · 31-10-2014 12:19pm

justsomebloke wrote: »

I think Burgess is going to be a 'flop' given the expectations around him and Bath not having a plan for him bar being a utility player.

Not wanting to derail the thread but I think Burgess couldn't have picked a better club than Bath to play Union with. Ford is a former league man himself and has already handled the transition of Eastmond very well.

I think they do have a clear plan for him and they've said he'll be a backrower which is probably the best decision tbh. It's just they're not going to chuck him completely into the deep end as a forward straight away but let him learn the game as a hybrid.

sydthebeat · 31-10-2014 12:50pm

Eat My Point wrote: »

But to put that in context if Aki is 4 inches shorter than Macken but only 3 kgs lighter doesn't that make Aki more solid than Macken? Taller doesn't necessarily mean stronger

agreed, hes a stocky guy... but my point is hes a more likely centre to run around you whereas Teo would have no qualms about running through you.
(and before im lynched, ill preface that by saying Teo isnt simply a bash merchant)

dub_skav · 31-10-2014 1:26pm

Clearlier wrote: »

It's not a great surprise that most successful converts from league to union are in the back 3. There's (still a lot but) much less to learn for players converting to those positions than any of 9 - 13. I can't even think of one serious attempt to convert a forward. That's my big worry about Te'o. He obviously has a lot of the physical attributes but he'll have none of the instincts about how to play the sport. Even forgetting about body position in rucks think of simple positioning on the field. There's a huge amount to learn. The only way that I see for him to make an early impact sustained beyond Iestyn Harris length of time is for him to be used in rigidly defined set piece moves i.e. almost certainly crash ball type situations where the main skill to learn will be body position. If he can master a couple of those and then build on that foundation then maybe he has a chance but like with Harris if he does have an impact he'll be targeted and he'll have to evolve and adapt quickly. I'd have him out of sight playing with the A's for most of the season if it were possible.

As I said in my previous post, I think England is the wrong place to be looking for good news stories about League converts (particularly because Te'o is coming from the NRL).
Brad Thorn was a convert into a pretty complicated position, I think we can all agree he was a success.
In the inside backs; Sonny Bill has done well for himself. Berrick Barnes was a decent international with a fruitful Union career. Mat Rogers and Andrew Walker were eased in at full back, but both produced from 10 too.

League converts are neither guaranteed successes nor failures, in fact most seem to end up at least decent.
The level of hype prior to their switch seems to have a major impact on whether they are considered failures or not, in this respect I think we are in a good position with Te'o - minimal hype.

I reckon he can be a great success so long as we give him time to settle and give him a fair chance (see Kirchner and Isa for examples of writing guys off too early).
Looking forward to seeing him on the field tonight, but I'll reserve final judgment for a year at least (isn't that mighty magnanimous of me

).

Leinster Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread V

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