Daughter forced to believe in God

Pwindedd · 09-09-2014 9:33pm

So most schools seem to require a baptismal cert, so parents get their children baptised, therefore identifying as catholic, so the census figures "reflect" that most of the country is therefore catholic, ergo schools remain under catholic ethos. Rinse and repeat. This situation will probably self perpetuate for a generation or two yet.

For the record my non catholic child was accepted at a catholic primary school with no baptismal cert. So it's not a requirement in all cases. Maybe we just got lucky. She joined the school at nine years of age, this was probably a mitigating factor. I didn't exempt her from religion, saw no need, as there was no reinforcement of religion from the home front. We live in Ireland so it was probably a good idea to immerse her in all aspects of irish life. She now attends a Multi denominational secondary school and seems relatively unhindered by her religious persuasion or lack thereof.

OP you can only pursue what you think is the correct course of action for you and your child. When she is a teenager and experiencing the highs and lows of young adulthood, I can assure you religion will be a very minor concern to her and her piers. There is no right or wrong choice in this matter - only the choice that you are both comfortable with. Good Luck on you chosen path.

bajer101 · 09-09-2014 9:34pm

mrsbyrne wrote: »

Wow.

Where were your "Wows" when she was slagging of my daughter and me?

lukesmom · 09-09-2014 9:36pm

vibe666 wrote: »

Poor poor Luke, he really has no chance at all.

And after that comment I will bow out of this discussion.

bajer101 · 09-09-2014 9:42pm

lukesmom wrote: »

And after that comment I will bow out of this discussion.

For the record, I tried to answer every single point and question that you asked me. You on the other hand, replied to none!

mrsbyrne · 09-09-2014 9:44pm

lukesmom wrote: »

And after that comment I will bow out of this discussion.

I've reported it.

mrsbyrne · 09-09-2014 9:46pm

bajer101 wrote: »

Where were your "Wows" when she was slagging of my daughter and me?

Direct me to where lukesmom said your daughter had no chance.

Czarcasm · 09-09-2014 9:49pm

bajer101 wrote: »

Which one of my posts that you quoted has anything to do with Atheism or leads you to believe that I want to become "a poster boy for Atheist rights"?

Well, since you ask, it wasn't one specific post, but rather the entire content of your contributions to this thread, that has made me move from a position where I initially empathised with your frustration, to actually becoming frustrated myself at the sheer arrogance and sneering attitude you have displayed towards posters who have disagreed with you.

I happen to be of the firm belief that just because other people will fire cheap shots your way, that doesn't mean you should lower yourself to their level, like as you said the pigeon analogy - let them show themselves up for their intolerance. You should hold yourself to a higher standard, and maintain that standard, and don't go shítting on the chess board just because the pigeon did it!

That doesn't make shítting on chess boards an ok thing to do. If we all shat on chess boards, we'd just end up with some very messy chess boards and neither side willing to negotiate to find a resolution.

I was originally happy enough for my daughter to be taught Religion in school. I didn't mind that she was going to make her Communion. I never told that there is no God, but simple that I don't believe that is a God and she can make her own mind up (unlike religious people who teach their kids as fact that there is a God). I've been happy enough for her to go to Mass with her Nana. I have made her very aware that plenty of people in her family believe in God. Not exactly Mr. Militant Atheist!

No, it's not, and that's why initially I found your attitude commendable and quite refreshing, and was able to empathise with your situation. Then you started insulting people left, right and centre, feeling brave I suppose in the midst of all the online support you were getting, and then you started with the GB Shaw and the whole pigeon crapping Creationist stuff and I just thought "Oh Jesus Holy fcuking Christ, here we go!", and tbh I just thought if you can't bear to listen and be tolerant of those whose opinion differs from your own, you're not going to get very far in talking to the teacher and the Principal of the school in order to have them accomodate not only your child's absence of belief, but also the fact that she is being bullied by the other children in the school.

Seriously, you as an adult must surely be aware that you don't get your own way by stamping your feet and making demands of other people. Employing such a strategy will only lead to other people dragging their feet and delays in accomodating your request. You can quote GB Shaw about being unreasonable all you like, but between you and I right now - you'll be laughed at, because your idea of unreasonable, and their idea of unreasonable, are merely based on who's holding all the cards.

Here's a hint - it's not you.

I would have supported my daughter equally if she decided that she believed in a Catholic God and some teacher in her Educate together school insisted that there was no God and that is what she had to believe.

That situation conveniently never arose though so you can't really say that with any degree of certainty. Let's just deal with reality and what's happening right now as opposed to "what if's" and so on. Speculation about what you could've, would've, should've done in another scenario doesn't actually do anything to resolve the situation you find yourself in right now.

Your post is the perfect example the Chess playing Pidgeon analogy and of the other posters who for some reason are trying to have a go at me and my daughter.

Please don't presume or take it that I'm trying to have a go at you. If I didn't actually want to see a positive outcome for both you and your daughter in all this mess, I wouldn't have bothered my ass posting here and trying to get you to see that while your confidence may be bolstered by the online support you've received here, none of us here will be sitting with you in the Principal's Office when you're requested to attend a meeting to discuss your daughter's situation.

If anyone is doing chess playing pigeon here, it's you, when posters are actually trying to help you and offer you advice, rather than see you become as you said - the poster boy for atheist rights. If you start quoting the Irish Constitution and all the rest of it, you're likely to get people's backs up. That's just a fact. You may be among a majority here in the online space, and I can understand that feels great and all to have that support, but when you go in to talk to the Principal about your daughter and your expectations for her education, you have to remember that the Principal by default will defend not only the actions of their staff, but also the Catholic ethos of the school, and they will have the backing of the School Board, and the DES behind them.

The opinions of a handful of posters in an online forum aren't going to have any bearing whatsoever on how your case is handled, and when I say handled, I mean it could go on for weeks. When this thread dies down, you and your daughter will still be dealing with the issue, whereas posters here will have moved on with their lives.

bajer101 · 09-09-2014 9:51pm

mrsbyrne wrote: »

I've reported it.

mrsbyrne wrote: »

Direct me to where lukesmom said your daughter had no chance.

I never said that she said that my daughter had no chance, I asked you about the posts where she slagged of my daughter and me. Feel free to look at all her posts that were insulting to me and my daughter and use the same standard for reporting. But you won't. To me, this smacks of being able to give it, but not being able to take it.

mrsbyrne · 09-09-2014 9:58pm

bajer101 wrote: »

I never said that she said that my daughter had no chance, I asked you about the posts where she slagged of my daughter and me. Feel free to look at all her posts that were insulting to me and my daughter and use the same standard for reporting. But you won't. To me, this smacks of being able to give it, but not being able to take it.

Why didn't you report the posts she made that you felt were slagging off your daughter? If I felt a poster was slagging my daughter I would report that post straight away. Is it not a bit odd that you didn't?

vibe666 · 09-09-2014 9:59pm

mrsbyrne wrote: »

Wow.

That's exactly my point.

lukesmom continues to take every possible opportunity to be spiteful and disrespectful of the OP and his daughter, where is your outrage there?

mrsbyrne wrote: »

I've reported it.

How many posts from lukesmom have you reported that have been much more vicious and spiteful (not to mention plentiful) than anything I have posted in response?

My posts have been specifically to highlight the spiteful nature of her posts, yet she keeps choosing to ignore facts and disrespect the OP and his daughter at every opportunity.

Gerry T · 09-09-2014 10:05pm

lukesmom wrote: »

That sounds good at least today she just stayed quiet and respected the class enough to get on with their prayers etc. I've no problem really with other religions or non religions going to a catholic school but when they disrupt what the teacher is trying to teach my children, what is on the curriculum then I'd find that rude.

If you look at the primary school curriculum http://www.ncca.ie/uploadedfiles/Curriculum/Intro_Eng.pdf you won't find the word religion mentioned once and the only mention of the word catholic is mentioned twice and that's in reference to a catholic primary school association. So if the primary school could stick with the curriculum set out by the NCCA.

Red Nissan · 09-09-2014 10:05pm

Czarcasm wrote: »

When this thread dies down, you and your daughter will still be dealing with the issue, whereas posters here will have moved on with their lives.

A fairly forensic post, well written and well interpreted, tbh, I'm stunned, I'm made to feel so inadequate, but, I will be here, and many more will be right here, waiting to help the next guy, and the OP if he wants to came back with updates and I will help anyway I can.

Gatling · 09-09-2014 10:14pm

Having read this whole thread completely it's almost an after hours thread .

Only worse .

Op where did your little one get the whole she doesn't believe in God ideas .

And did you explain the whole atheist don't make there communion to her yet .

I'd feel very sorry for her when it comes to a huge occasion in school only to be completely left young or not that will hurt seeing a whole School(99%) doing it and she doesn't

eviltwin · 09-09-2014 10:19pm

Gatling wrote: »

Having read this whole thread completely it's almost an after hours thread .

Only worse .

Op where did your little one get the whole she doesn't believe in God ideas .

And did you explain the whole atheist don't make there communion to her yet .

I'd feel very sorry for her when it comes to a huge occasion in school only to be completely left young or not that will hurt seeing a whole School(99%) doing it and she doesn't

Here we go again, if a parents only reason for letting junior make his or her communion is that they don't feel left out then that just makes a mockery out of it. I'm not religious so I don't have any reverence for the sacrement but I respect it enough not to treat it as a day out. Plenty of children don't make FHC, I'm sure she'll come through it without any mental scars.

Red Nissan · 09-09-2014 10:27pm

eviltwin wrote: »

Here we go again, if a parents only reason for letting junior make his or her communion is that they don't feel left out then that just makes a mockery out of it. I'm not religious so I don't have any reverence for the sacrement but I respect it enough not to treat it as a day out. Plenty of children don't make FHC, I'm sure she'll come through it without any mental scars.

Whilst I agree: IT IS A HUGE ISSUE AND perhaps better allowed with the child's understanding. IE, celebrate Christmas even if one does not believe in Santa. Santa being the free gifts guy giving every child in the whole wide world a present for Christ's birthday, even Muslims and the rotten bastar** who crucified him ~ sort of thing.

lynski · 09-09-2014 10:36pm

vibe666 wrote: »

unfortunately yes.

and unfortunately, with the way things currently are, for a lot of people, it's a choice of either baptise your kids to get them into a local catholic school, or be left to drive them miles out of your way to your nearest ET school, if you can even get them into one at all as they are all massively over-subscribed because people took a stand and didn't get their kids baptised and then realised how fooked they were with pretty much zero choice of schools locally without a baptismal cert because they didn't have their kids registered at the time they were born (yes, it can be THAT bad).
.

that is not why ET schools are oversubscribed:most kids in our local ET school are catholic and go to RC class every week.

Gatling · 09-09-2014 10:37pm

eviltwin wrote: »

Here we go again, if a parents only reason for letting junior make his or her communion is that they don't feel left out then that just makes a mockery out of it. Plenty of children don't make FHC, I'm sure she'll come through it without any mental scars.

Unfortunately not all parents see it as a day out actually ( some do go completely over board) or about money .
For me I was baptised , took holy communion and was confirmed and in several weeks I'll be married .
Not saying anything about mental scars but kids have a way of making exclusion a tool to single other kids to maximum effect.

Pwindedd · 09-09-2014 10:38pm

Gatling wrote: »

Having read this whole thread completely it's almost an after hours thread .

Only worse .

Op where did your little one get the whole she doesn't believe in God ideas .

And did you explain the whole atheist don't make there communion to her yet .

I'd feel very sorry for her when it comes to a huge occasion in school only to be completely left young or not that will hurt seeing a whole School(99%) doing it and she doesn't

Don't be so dramatic. I don't feel sorry for her at all. It's one day, and certainly not the huge occasion you're making it out to be. My daughter and another Muslim pupil were the only ones to not make communion in her year. Feelings of hurt never came into it as far as I'm aware. Children are really not that fragile. They're far more resilient than we give them credit for. She'll be absolutely fine.

eviltwin · 09-09-2014 10:59pm

Gatling wrote: »

Unfortunately not all parents see it as a day out actually ( some do go completely over board) or about money .
For me I was baptised , took holy communion and was confirmed and in several weeks I'll be married .
Not saying anything about mental scars but kids have a way of making exclusion a tool to single other kids to maximum effect.

Having been through it with my own its not that unusual anymore, there are usually a few kids that don't do the sacrements

bajer101 · 09-09-2014 11:01pm

Czarcasm wrote: »

Well, since you ask, it wasn't one specific post, but rather the entire content of your contributions to this thread, that has made me move from a position where I initially empathised with your frustration, to actually becoming frustrated myself at the sheer arrogance and sneering attitude you have displayed towards posters who have disagreed with you.

That's all well and good, but I still invite you to point out which of my posts you quoted illustrate that I am a poster boy for Atheist rights! I would also ask that you show me the posts where I have displayed arrogance and a sneering attitude for people who disagreed with me. I think you will find that I was just responding to implied insults and to people people who jumped on the thread with an agenda and with nothing constructive to say.

I happen to be of the firm belief that just because other people will fire cheap shots your way, that doesn't mean you should lower yourself to their level, like as you said the pigeon analogy - let them show themselves up for their intolerance. You should hold yourself to a higher standard, and maintain that standard, and don't go shítting on the chess board just because the pigeon did it!

That doesn't make shítting on chess boards an ok thing to do. If we all shat on chess boards, we'd just end up with some very messy chess boards and neither side willing to negotiate to find a resolution.

I found myself having to repeat the same information time after time to people who had no interest in my original post, but who seemed to be using this thread as a vehicle to voice their agenda. This becomes very frustrating when I am dealing with a real life dilemma. Initially, this thread was exactly what I hoped it would be - a resource that would help me deal with the problem I faced. However, in the last day a lot of posters jumped in with no intention of helping me with my original request for assistance (I suspect this happened as the thread appeared in the Trending tab). In absolutely every instance where people queried me and and my intentions or posted thinly veiled insults, I endeavoured to answer each post and every question - ad nauseum. It was not me that was shítting on the chessboard, but it became impossible not to post such analogies in the face of these posts.

No, it's not, and that's why initially I found your attitude commendable and quite refreshing, and was able to empathise with your situation. Then you started insulting people left, right and centre, feeling brave I suppose in the midst of all the online support you were getting, and then you started with the GB Shaw and the whole pigeon crapping Creationist stuff and I just thought "Oh Jesus Holy fcuking Christ, here we go!", and tbh I just thought if you can't bear to listen and be tolerant of those whose opinion differs from your own, you're not going to get very far in talking to the teacher and the Principal of the school in order to have them accomodate not only your child's absence of belief, but also the fact that she is being bullied by the other children in the school.

Again, point out a single one of my posts that was not a reply to someone who was trying to use my dilemma as an opportunity to post about their own beliefs and who had no interest in offering help. There was a constant stream of people trying to drag the thread off in different directions, but all the time there were implied subtle digs. I'm sorry - but in such situations, I absolutely reserve the right to reply. But I absolutely refute you contention that I was slagging people off left, right and centre.

I have no problem with people who have different beliefs to me and I am happy to debate these beliefs in a civilised manner. But that is not what happened here. There was a hit and run agenda. Posters would appear and throw a jab, and when I, or anyone else countered, they would disappear without answering.

There is absolutely no problem with my tolerance of other people's beliefs and my daughter also has no problem other people's beliefs. If she ever exhibits any intolerance of that sort, I will do my utmost to correct. I don't anticipate any issue talking to the Principal about the issues I have had. The initial contact we have had about this has been very positive and I see no reason why an a reasonable, amicable solution will not be found.

Seriously, you as an adult must surely be aware that you don't get your own way by stamping your feet and making demands of other people. Employing such a strategy will only lead to other people dragging their feet and delays in accomodating your request. You can quote GB Shaw about being unreasonable all you like, but between you and I right now - you'll be laughed at, because your idea of unreasonable, and their idea of unreasonable, are merely based on who's holding all the cards.

Here's a hint - it's not you.[\QUOTE]

The GB Shaw quote was simply a reaction to posts where I was seemingly being told to "toe the line". It's a great quote and is pertinent - not just in this instance, but in any situation where change is needed.

At no point have I stamped my feet or been demanding or been confrontational. I fully expect an amicable solution and full expect that outcome. I can guarantee you that I will not be laughed at. Laughing at someone who is exercising their constitutional and human rights is not advisable and the Principal has given me no reason to believe that she would do this.

That situation conveniently never arose though so you can't really say that with any degree of certainty. Let's just deal with reality and what's happening right now as opposed to "what if's" and so on. Speculation about what you could've, would've, should've done in another scenario doesn't actually do anything to resolve the situation you find yourself in right now.[\QUOTE]

While the situation of my never having to defend my child saying that she believed in God has never arisen, I can categorically assure you with 100% certainty that I would defend her. If you are a parent, you will understand.

The situation I am in right now is well on its way to being resolved thanks to the advice I received on this thread.

Please don't presume or take it that I'm trying to have a go at you. If I didn't actually want to see a positive outcome for both you and your daughter in all this mess, I wouldn't have bothered my ass posting here and trying to get you to see that while your confidence may be bolstered by the online support you've received here, none of us here will be sitting with you in the Principal's Office when you're requested to attend a meeting to discuss your daughter's situation.

If anyone is doing chess playing pigeon here, it's you, when posters are actually trying to help you and offer you advice, rather than see you become as you said - the poster boy for atheist rights. If you start quoting the Irish Constitution and all the rest of it, you're likely to get people's backs up. That's just a fact. You may be among a majority here in the online space, and I can understand that feels great and all to have that support, but when you go in to talk to the Principal about your daughter and your expectations for her education, you have to remember that the Principal by default will defend not only the actions of their staff, but also the Catholic ethos of the school, and they will have the backing of the School Board, and the DES behind them.

The opinions of a handful of posters in an online forum aren't going to have any bearing whatsoever on how your case is handled, and when I say handled, I mean it could go on for weeks. When this thread dies down, you and your daughter will still be dealing with the issue, whereas posters here will have moved on with their lives.

Thank you for your well thought out post and for taking the considerable time to discuss this. It is certainly a welcome relief from the recent posts from people who had no interest in a real debate about the subject or who couldn't be bothered to reply to simple questions.

But I happen to believe that you are very wrong in this last section. I am in no way behaving as "the pidgeon". I am responding with logic, well thought out arguments and have the backing of the law. Every indication so far is that the school is willing to come to an amenable solution. I have not been adversarial with them and they haven't been adversarial with me either. They will of course back their teacher, but I am not looking for any heads on plates or for any sanctions to be taken against anyone. I just want a simple solution implemented and will work with them to make that happen.

However, if it does transpire that they try to block this, or try to insist that my daughter has to be taught Religion, then I will be quite prepared to deal with that accordingly. It will obviously complicate matters, and I may have to remove my daughter for her sake. But I won't let it go (and may then become a poster boy for Atheism). It certainly won't phase me. I spent a long time in Court rooms with numerous family law lawyers both here and abroad, dealing with much more serious issues. This would be a slam dunk for them.

Thanks again for the well constructed reply. I genuinely appreciated it.

bajer101 · 09-09-2014 11:04pm

mrsbyrne wrote: »

Why didn't you report the posts she made that you felt were slagging off your daughter? If I felt a poster was slagging my daughter I would report that post straight away. Is it not a bit odd that you didn't?

I believe in freedom of speech. I prefer to try and debate the subject rather than just censor the person.

coffee_cake · 09-09-2014 11:09pm

lukesmom wrote: »

You must be joking???? After all this you 'don't mind' if your daughter makes her communion ?????? The level of hypocrisy here is off the scale, I'm beginning to wonder if you are being serious now

He's been saying it since the start

Maybe you should stop waffling about the child and her manners and have some of your own and read the thread you're having a go at the OP on

you don't have to agree but reading it would be a good start

Red Nissan · 09-09-2014 11:10pm

bajer101 wrote: »

Thanks again for the well constructed reply. I genuinely appreciated it.

Ye but ye have to go off for two hours to analysis it. It's a bait, not a debate. Hold off on your appreciation, I'm to bed, Goodnight.

lukesmom · 09-09-2014 11:14pm

I did not come to this thread with an agenda op. I tried to have a debate but unfortunately it went belly up. I wish you and your daughter well, I really mean that.

Turtwig · 09-09-2014 11:15pm

Mod: where do I even start here?

Reading parts of this thread is like reading the exchange between two kids accusing each other of who broke a toy!

Everyone is entitled to their opinions - within reason. Their personal nature is to be respected but their opinions are fair game and open to scrutiny.

Because of the topic of the thread it's inevitable that the OP has put his own daughter a little in the firing line so some questioning is going to be allowed. That DOES NOT mean it's a perfect game. Nor, does it mean that other people's personal lives suddenly become fair game. (Even if it is by use of an analogy to try to make a point.) In fact, for the purposes of this thread there's an inherent bias by its very nature. The OP's personal scenario is the topic of this thread, so within reason certain challenges are permitted. Any challenges against the personal lives of any other poster in this thread that isn't the OP are entirely unwelcome. I appreciate this is an emotive topic so I'd ask that if you do wish to question or challenge the OP's decision making or actions that you take a pause and choose your words very carefully. Here on out, anything which we consider to be excessively over the line may result in cards,

Consider this fair warning to all!
Thanks,

EunanMac · 09-09-2014 11:16pm

bluewolf wrote: »

He's been saying it since the start

Maybe you should stop waffling about the child and her manners and have some of your own and read the thread you're having a go at the OP on

you don't have to agree but reading it would be a good start

Do you practice what you preach ?

letsseehere14 · 09-09-2014 11:21pm

Sooo after over 5 days, 475 posts has the OP yet communicated with the school? called in? Phone call? No? Just a letter that may not be answered for some time.
So the daughter is having difficulty settling into the school. Possible issues about what she is being taught. Definite confusion among faculty about her religion. Been called to the principals office. Been bullied by students. Well we assume all this as the OP has just taken his daughters word as golden avoiding the possibility much of this is an exaggeration due to her not settling into a new school.
I find it absolutely shocking that the OP has not spoken to either of the adults involved her. This forum has seemed to taken on a direction of attacking the Catholic schooling system without the full facts and probably the full truth. but maybe that was the goal in the first place.

Gerry T · 09-09-2014 11:24pm

letsseehere14 wrote: »

Sooo after over 5 days, 475 posts has the OP yet communicated with the school? called in? Phone call? No? Just a letter that may not be answered for some time.
So the daughter is having difficulty settling into the school. Possible issues about what she is being taught. Definite confusion among faculty about her religion. Been called to the principals office. Been bullied by students. Well we assume all this as the OP has just taken his daughters word as golden avoiding the possibility much of this is an exaggeration due to her not settling into a new school.
I find it absolutely shocking that the OP has not spoken to either of the adults involved her. This forum has seemed to taken on a direction of attacking the Catholic schooling system without the full facts and probably the full truth. but maybe that was the goal in the first place.

Here we go again, go back a couple of posts and read.... you will see the OP has spoken with all parties and the principal seems very reasonable, the daughter happy and your post is ill conceived

bajer101 · 09-09-2014 11:30pm

Gatling wrote: »

Having read this whole thread completely it's almost an after hours thread .

Only worse .

Op where did your little one get the whole she doesn't believe in God ideas .

I don't understand? She was born seven years ago - where would she have got the whole "believing in God" ideas?

And did you explain the whole atheist don't make there communion to her yet .

I'm still reluctant to describe her as an Atheist. But yes, I did have a conversation with her about making her Communion after this situation arose. (Again, I find myself having to repeat myself). I explained what making your Communion meant (transubstantiation and all that), and she said that it was was stupid.

I'd feel very sorry for her when it comes to a huge occasion in school only to be completely left young or not that will hurt seeing a whole School(99%) doing it and she doesn't

Yeah well, save your sympathy - she'll be fine. We'll celebrate in our own way and she has a wonderfully supportive family who will give her a big day out.

It could be worse. She could be in a North Korean school where 100% of the children celebrate ridiculous holidays in honour of their leader. Would you feel sorry for a child who decided not to take part? Don't bother replying. I've become used to people asking me questions in this thread, but when I reply and counter, there is no answer.

vibe666 · 09-09-2014 11:31pm

letsseehere14 wrote: »

Sooo after over 5 days, 475 posts has the OP yet communicated with the school? called in? Phone call? No? Just a letter that may not be answered for some time.

Seriously?

Please go back and actually read the 475 posts you appear to have completely ignored.

Daughter forced to believe in God

Comments