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Daughter forced to believe in God

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    #182
    realdanbreen
    Registered Users Posts: 8,157 ✭✭✭realdanbreen


    bajer101 wrote: »
    Considering that the clergy constitute less than 0.1% of the population and that they are responsible for 10% of child abuse, that means that they are more than 100 times more likely to abuse a child than a non clergy member. So what's your point?

    Do you want me to break it down so you can understand? Less than 5% of clergy were involved in sex abuse.. By your figures less than 0.1% of the population are clergymen. Therefore, less than 5% of less than 0.1 % of the population were abusing. Like I say don't always follow the mob attitude that the tabloids stir up.


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    #183
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    bajer101 wrote: »
    ...

    I am not sure what to do about this. The way I see it I have a few options.
    1. Take her out of the school straight away as it is obviously very religiously oriented and there will be no good outcome if she is left there.
    2. Get my daughter to play along and go with the flow.
    3. Talk to the teacher and principal and try to come up with a reasonable solution.
    4. Go all out nuclear and kick up a huge fuss and demand that my daughter be allowed opt out of all religious activity.

    Any thoughts or advice would be appreciated.

    Have you done this
    vibe666 wrote: »
    They are obliged to follow the Irish constitution that guarantees every child an education without religious indoctrination.

    Complaints go in the order of: to the teacher (unless it is about them) > the principle (unless about them) > school management board > the ETB.

    What has been the outcome thus far?

    Has anyone any experience where an ETB / board has acted on the foot of a complaint of this nature, and a teacher/principle have changed their policies as a result.


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    #184
    Cabaal
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,470 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    realdanbreen wrote: »
    Do you want me to break it down so you can understand? Less than 5% of clergy were involved in sex abuse.. By your figures less than 0.1% of the population are clergymen. Therefore, less than 5% of less than 0.1 % of the population were abusing. Like I say don't always follow the mob attitude that the tabloids stir up.

    You do understand that it is not simply the abusing of children that disgusts the general Irish population right?

    Its the fact that the Vatican had guidelines in place to a: silence the victims and b: move the abuser to another area. They didn't stop the priests from interacting with children, they simply ignored the problem and hoped for the best by moving them around to get the heat off of them.

    Then when all the abuse victims spoke out the Vatican sent over people who called the abuse victims liars and told them they were only in it for the money.

    The Catholic church in Ireland & the Vatican also stone walled them and the Goverment at every turn when it comes to releasing of records and being up front about what happened. The Vatican continues to refuse to co-operate and release files to a UN Investigation.

    Finally we have only to look at the lovely treatment of Brady to see that the Vatican have no problem with a man who followed the Vatican's guidelines of swearing victims to silence and then did not notify the Irish State authority's about the sexual abuse that took place.

    Bottom line out of all of this is the Catholic church only has one thing in mind when it comes to children and the church....the children are not the priority and they never have been, the church is number 1 and trying to keep its image takes priority above people and even laws that exist in country's such as Ireland.


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    #185
    lazygal
    Registered Users Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    And the church insured itself against abuse claims years before it claimed to know what was happening. Not to mention the mental reservations and swearing children to secrecy.


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    #186
    Irishcrx
    Registered Users Posts: 2,861 ✭✭✭Irishcrx


    It's a difficult one , but I wouldn't say you are alone out there. This is now a modern day problem in Ireland with the majority of primary schools still being very catholic orientated. I'd be the same as you in my beliefs and my son is two , I'm very cautious in how I want to approach religion with him when the time comes but like yourself I want him to come to his own decision when he is old enough to understand all the facts that come with it, but he won't be able to do that at a young age and B I don't want religion forced down his throat either.

    It comes with a social 'acceptance' in terms in comminion and comfirmation , I don't want him to be excluded from these thing's either and be the odd one out. His mother is religious so I have asked her to deal with the religion aspect and then hopefully when he is older and asks me what I belief I can be open and honest with him.

    As for your daughter, I would take her out of the school and try and find a multi culutre school locally if that is at all possible , she is clearly upset where she is and I don't think argueing with the school will get you anywhere.

    They are a catholic school and will insist all children attending practice the faith, it's very black and white with them they believe they are right and you are wrong regardless of what day and age we now live in.

    Good luck.


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    #187
    vibe666
    Registered Users Posts: 13,016 ✭✭✭✭vibe666


    realdanbreen wrote: »
    Do you want me to break it down so you can understand? Less than 5% of clergy were involved in sex abuse.. By your figures less than 0.1% of the population are clergymen. Therefore, less than 5% of less than 0.1 % of the population were abusing. Like I say don't always follow the mob attitude that the tabloids stir up.
    you don't seem to follow the basic rules of mathematics either do you?


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    #188
    lukesmom
    Registered Users Posts: 4,400 ✭✭✭lukesmom


    It's your own fault. You shouldn't have sent your daughter to a catholic school if you don't believe or practise the catholic faith. Why did you baptise her? I feel sorry for the kid to be honest.


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    #189
    vibe666
    Registered Users Posts: 13,016 ✭✭✭✭vibe666


    lukesmom wrote: »
    It's your own fault. You shouldn't have sent your daughter to a catholic school if you don't believe or practise the catholic faith. Why did you baptise her? I feel sorry for the kid to be honest.

    you really do need to make even a tiny bit of effort to read threads before making ignorant, uninformed comments in them.


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    #190
    rainbow kirby
    Moderators, Regional Abroad Moderators Posts: 26,928 Mod ✭✭✭✭rainbow kirby


    beauf wrote: »
    Why do these schools have better results?

    Undercurrent of racism and snobbery - Catholic schools tend to have a higher proportion of white British/Irish/European pupils and a much lower proportion of pupils from lower income backgrounds (free school meals etc) compared to state and CoE schools.


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    #191
    Cabaal
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,470 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    lukesmom wrote: »
    It's your own fault. You shouldn't have sent your daughter to a catholic school if you don't believe or practise the catholic faith. Why did you baptise her? I feel sorry for the kid to be honest.

    What????, you mean people can't change their mind and leave a religion? How dare they use their apparently "god given free will" to choose how they raise their children!
    :rolleyes:

    I think you'll find alot can happen between a child getting baptised at say 1-6 months and the child being 6 or 7. People grow and change, people change faiths or change to non faith...all perfectly normal, legal and you'd want to get off your high horse when condemning such people.

    I feel more sorry for the large amount of people that blindly baptise their children and then bitch and moan about having to bring them to mass when it comes to the communion stuff. People shouldn't find it a burden to do such a thing...people should be happy to goto mass on a Sunday, the fact that they don't like it says alot about their apparent "faith".


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    #192
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 51,724 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    lukesmom wrote: »
    It's your own fault. You shouldn't have sent your daughter to a catholic school if you don't believe or practise the catholic faith. Why did you baptise her? I feel sorry for the kid to be honest.
    Best pass that message on to the rest of parents of Ireland. Be a lot of empty schools if we applied that rule.

    If you can read this, you're too close!



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    #193
    GreeBo
    Registered Users Posts: 27,114 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    bajer101 wrote: »
    Yeah. I sent the Principal an email explaining the situation. I kept the tone of the email very conciliatory and just basically said that my daughter would not be making her Communion and that she was to be excluded from all Religious education. I explained all the reasons behind this decision and was in no way aggressive or adversarial. I haven't received a reply yet.

    I also explained to my daughter that she no longer has take part in any Religious education, but that there is no need for her to tell anyone that she doesn't believe in God - that it's none of their business. Hopefully the next stage will just be how the school arranges this. I have a few age appropriate science books ordered from Amazon that she can read if she has to stay in the class while the others are taught Religion. I'd like to think that it will be sorted reasonably, but the way this has been dealt with so far leads me to suspect that her teacher mightn't like this turn of events. But now that the school are aware of my wishes, if there is the slightest hint of any discriminatory treatment I will take whatever action is necessary.

    The situation is further complicated by having to inform her mother about this. While she lives in a different country and hasn't seen her in almost three years, I was obliged to tell her about all this today. Although I have sole custody, mothers cannot have guardian rights removed (except in cases of adoption), so that adds another layer of complexity to the situation. Guardian's have a say over a child's Religious upbringing and she is a born again Christian so I'm expecting this to be used against me.

    I'll update this thread with what happens.

    So you informed the school *after* the incident?


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    #194
    vibe666
    Registered Users Posts: 13,016 ✭✭✭✭vibe666


    GreeBo wrote: »
    So you informed the school *after* the incident?

    yes he did, but what's your point?

    even if i was a fully paid up member of the god squad, I'd be VERY unhappy about a teacher telling my child she HAD to believe in god and threatening to send her back to her old school if she didn't, as I think any half decent parent should, religious or not.


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    #195
    lazygal
    Registered Users Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    Suppose the father and daughter had converted to Islam over the summer holiday and the school decided to take it upon itself to tell a child they would have to follow catholicism instead of the new faith or there would be serious consequences?


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    #196
    GreeBo
    Registered Users Posts: 27,114 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    bajer101 wrote: »
    Considering that the clergy constitute less than 0.1% of the population and that they are responsible for 10% of child abuse, that means that they are more than 100 times more likely to abuse a child than a non clergy member. So what's your point?

    No, it means that the clergy are responsible for 10% of child abuse, thats it.

    Your "fact" states that if I became a priest tomorrow I would suddenly be 100 times more likely to abuse someone, thats tosh.


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    #197
    DeltaWhite
    Registered Users Posts: 666 ✭✭✭DeltaWhite


    OP, I'm a bit late to this thread but I just want to say I commend you 100% for how you've handled this situation. You are completely in your right and I think your daughter is very lucky to have a Father like you.

    People will always throw in their 2 cents whether they are right or wrong and the one thing I despise most in this world - is religion. I have my own reasons that I wont be explaining to anyone, but just know that there are many religious nuts out there who believe all the things that I dont - and they are entitled to. Same as you are entitled to not believe it and I think it's very fortunate that you have encouraged your daughter to think for herself.

    One thing I do not appreciate is how these religious people try and push their ways onto others in what I describe as an aggressive way i.e "well I'm right and you're wrong" crap. I'm happy to believe what I want and I dont try and force that onto other people. My way is my way and I'm happy to live my life like that.

    Well done in your approach so far anyway OP, I just wanted to offer you some support.


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    #198
    GreeBo
    Registered Users Posts: 27,114 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    vibe666 wrote: »
    yes he did, but what's your point?

    even if i was a fully paid up member of the god squad, I'd be VERY unhappy about a teacher telling my child she HAD to believe in god and threatening to send her back to her old school if she didn't, as I think any half decent parent should, religious or not.

    The point is that if you send your child to a *Catholic* school and dont tell them that your child wants no part of what school is based on and believes in, you should bloody tell them rather than go crazy when they apply the same teachings to your child that the school is based on.
    Its hardly rocket science tbh.

    The teacher told the child not to say it again, where was the "HAD to believe in God" aspect?

    Do you think you could send your child to an Islamic school and it would be cool and the gang for your child to state that Muhammed doesnt exist?


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    #199
    GreeBo
    Registered Users Posts: 27,114 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    SW wrote: »
    Best pass that message on to the rest of parents of Ireland. Be a lot of empty schools if we applied that rule.

    and thats the schools fault how exactly?


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    #200
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 51,724 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    GreeBo wrote: »
    and thats the schools fault how exactly?
    where did I suggest it was the schools fault? :confused:

    If you can read this, you're too close!



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    #201
    GreeBo
    Registered Users Posts: 27,114 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    SW wrote: »
    where did I suggest it was the schools fault? :confused:

    This entire thread suggests it.
    If you send your child to a Catholic School, for whatever reason, you cannot blame the school for being Catholic and teaching about Catholicism.


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    #202
    MrPudding
    Registered Users Posts: 9,788 ✭✭✭MrPudding


    hinault wrote: »
    It shows that even where there is the widespread option of non-Catholic ethos education, more and more parents are choosing to send their children to Catholic-ethos schools.
    The desire in the UK, which I took a conscious decision to ignore, to send children to catholic ethos school has nothing to do with the fact that they are catholic ethos schools and everything to do with the mistaken belief that the children in those schools perform better in exams.

    There are a number of articles knocking around which address this idea that faith schools outperform non-faith schools. For example, here is one from the NSS:

    http://www.secularism.org.uk/blog/2014/06/a-religious-ethos-is-not-why-faith-schools-succeed--its-selection-that-does-it

    Just in case your browser, or you beliefs, won't allow you to visit a website that has 'secular' in the title, i will give a very brief summary. Many believe that the reasons faith schools have better exam results, and hence why people are clambering to get their kids into them, is due to the selective nature of their admissions policies. Whilst they insist they discriminate on religious grounds, there is a very interesting side effect of this, this religious discrimination, quite handily for them, tends to mean the school have far fewer children from lower income families.

    To give you some examples, if one looks at a school's catchment area one can work out the percentage of school children in that area that are entitled to free school meals (this year is slightly different because all children under 7 get free school meals irrespective of household income), one can then look at the percentage of pupils in a school and see how many pupils they have on the books that receive free school meals. This makes interesting reading.

    Comprehensive school that have no religious character will, on average, have 11% more pupils with free lunch entitlement that would be expected given the numbers in the catchment area. Catholic schools, on the other hand with have 24% less than expected. You can read about those figures here:

    http://fairadmissions.org.uk/groundbreaking-new-research-maps-the-segregating-impact-of-faith-school-admissions/

    The guardian has also done a few stories on this which are worth digging out, if you are interested.

    So, in the UK there may be demand for faith schools, but this has little to do with them being faith schools. Demand for schools in the the UK is driven by exam results. Many parent are under the mistaken impression that faith school are 'better' than non-faith schools. I suppose, then, that you are correct in a sense, demand for catholic schools is strong in the UK, but I would suggest that you are wrong to suggest this is an indication that parents want to send their kids to faith schools. Parents want to send their kids to schools that have good exam results. As long as faith schools are allowed to discriminate on ground of religion, and thereby select children that are statistically more likely to do well, irrespective of where they are taught, then they will appear to be better and parents will want to send their children there.

    Not really a particularly strong argument for your side, is it?

    MrP


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    #203
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 51,724 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    GreeBo wrote: »
    This entire thread suggests it.
    If you send your child to a Catholic School, for whatever reason, you cannot blame the school for being Catholic and teaching about Catholicism.

    Most people that have posted are objecting to a 7 year old child being threatened with expulsion for saying they don't believe in God. And for the prinicipal then saying she must believe in God.

    That is unprofessional behaviour by the staff. The teacher should have just told the child to do whatever work had been assigned and let it go at that.

    If you can read this, you're too close!



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    #204
    vibe666
    Registered Users Posts: 13,016 ✭✭✭✭vibe666


    GreeBo wrote: »
    The point is that if you send your child to a *Catholic* school and dont tell them that your child wants no part of what school is based on and believes in, you should bloody tell them rather than go crazy when they apply the same teachings to your child that the school is based on.
    Its hardly rocket science tbh.

    The teacher told the child not to say it again, where was the "HAD to believe in God" aspect?

    Do you think you could send your child to an Islamic school and it would be cool and the gang for your child to state that Muhammed doesnt exist?

    it's up to the child what she wants to believe in (or not), maybe you didn't read the whole thread, or more likely just read into it what you wanted to rather than what actually happened, but the simple fact is, that ANY child in Ireland has a constitutional right to NOT have any religion forced on them in any school, "catholic ethos" or not and having a teacher threatening that they will be sent back to their old school if they say they don't believe in god is reprehensible and constitutionally unjust, not to mention a clear breach of her human rights under EU law.

    THAT isn't rocket science. :rolleyes:


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    #205
    GreeBo
    Registered Users Posts: 27,114 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    vibe666 wrote: »
    it's up to the child what she wants to believe in (or not), maybe you didn't read the whole thread, or more likely just read into it what you wanted to rather than what actually happened, but the simple fact is, that ANY child in Ireland has a constitutional right to NOT have any religion forced on them in any school, "catholic ethos" or not and having a teacher threatening that they will be sent back to their old school if they say they don't believe in god is reprehensible and constitutionally unjust, not to mention a clear breach of her human rights under EU law.

    THAT isn't rocket science. :rolleyes:

    So you think that its fine for the parent not to inform the school of their childs special (in this context) needs and for the child to explain this to the teacher themselves?

    Why would you not inform the school in the very beginning?
    In what possible circumstances would not informing them work out better than informing them in advance?

    The child is seven....7...why would you put them in the position of having to deal with and inform the teacher of the situation?
    This left the child, the teacher and the school in a difficult position that could easily have been avoided or at least lessened by having an honest discussion with the school in advance.


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    #206
    Cabaal
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,470 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    GreeBo, do you think the teachers and principals handling of the situation is acceptable?

    Serving the child with a threat of being sent back to their old school is an acceptable manner to deal with a 7 year old now is it?


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    #207
    GreeBo
    Registered Users Posts: 27,114 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    Cabaal wrote: »
    GreeBo, do you think the teachers and principals handling of the situation is acceptable?

    Serving the child with a threat of being sent back to their old school is an acceptable manner to deal with a 7 year old now is it?

    I think the principal handled it badly and the parent should have been called first.
    I can see how the teacher panicked though, a room full of kids all going to start wondering "why doesnt she believe in God?"
    Without being there and knowing exactly what was said and how it was said, it may not be as bad as its made to sound.

    I do think its the parents fault for putting the child and the teacher in that position.


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    #208
    RustyNut
    Registered Users Posts: 3,430 ✭✭✭RustyNut


    GreeBo wrote: »
    This entire thread suggests it.
    If you send your child to a Catholic School, for whatever reason, you cannot blame the school for being Catholic and teaching about Catholicism.

    What local options are provided by the state for the non catholic members of the community?


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    #209
    GreeBo
    Registered Users Posts: 27,114 ✭✭✭✭GreeBo


    RustyNut wrote: »
    What local options are provided by the state for the non catholic members of the community?

    How is that relevant?
    If your child has special needs that are not obvious, tell the bloody school and dont put everyone, especially your child, into an awkward position.


    Imagine your child doesnt believe in Santa, do you think the school would/should be fine with your child telling everyone that Santa doesnt exist?


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    #210
    StudentDad
    Registered Users Posts: 1,457 ✭✭✭StudentDad


    This child is entitled to a full education irrespective of her beliefs. To essentially traumatise a child of seven in the middle of her education is barbaric.

    The sooner religious indoctrination is taken out of state funded schools the better.

    SD


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    #211
    lazygal
    Registered Users Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    GreeBo wrote: »
    How is that relevant?
    If your child has special needs that are not obvious, tell the bloody school and dont put everyone, especially your child, into an awkward position.


    Imagine your child doesnt believe in Santa, do you think the school would/should be fine with your child telling everyone that Santa doesnt exist?

    But Santa doesn't exist. We know Santa doesn't exist. How parents deal with that is not a matter for the school, its a matter for the parents, as my parents were told when a non catholic child told us there was no Santa. We plan on doing Santa, in a pretty low key way, and if our children were told Santa doesn't exist we'd deal with that ourselves. How is telling children God doesn't exist different from telling them Santa doesn't exist? Or there's no Easter Bunny or Tooth Fairy? And if you tell the school and the school says 'while the child is in school he or she is not allowed to say there is no God' what should a parent do then?


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