Daughter forced to believe in God

GreeBo · 08-09-2014 1:53pm

If a teacher did that to my child I would crucif....oh.

Its a Catholic School....Catholic.
I think the clue is in the name, what were you expecting them to do?

Would you send your child to a gaelschoil but not expect them to speak Irish?

Delirium · 08-09-2014 2:00pm

GreeBo wrote: »

If a teacher did that to my child I would crucif....oh.

Its a Catholic School....Catholic.
I think the clue is in the name, what were you expecting them to do?

Would you send your child to a gaelschoil but not expect them to speak Irish?

Hardly the same thing, unless they teach "Catholic maths/history/geography" etc.

In a lot of places, the choice is Catholic school or no school. I know I'd send a kid to a Catholic school if it was that or no school.

EunanMac · 08-09-2014 2:15pm

Gerry T wrote: »

My kids primary had protestant, catholic and non-faith kids. All the kids got on great together, birthday parties, play-dates, etc... So I'm sure you kid will enjoy her days in school. Once the questions from her class mates are answered they will move on and accept her position.
You sound like your dealing well with this situation and best of luck with it.

Presumably you informed them she was a Protestant beforehand, so there was no confusion where they were mistakenly left teaching her Catholic beliefs.

Gumbi · 08-09-2014 2:31pm

GreeBo wrote: »

If a teacher did that to my child I would crucif....oh.

Its a Catholic School....Catholic.
I think the clue is in the name, what were you expecting them to do?

Would you send your child to a gaelschoil but not expect them to speak Irish?

You realise that over 90% of primary schools in Ireland are Catholic? Virtually no one has a choice in this matter.

Gerry T · 08-09-2014 2:35pm

EunanMac wrote: »

Presumably you informed them she was a Protestant beforehand, so there was no confusion where they were mistakenly left teaching her Catholic beliefs.

It wasn't an issue with the school. They gave precedence for protestant kids but then took all others. Their policy was the children could sit out their protestant religion lesson in another class room which worked without any problems.

I'm from a catholic upbringing but in all conscience can't follow the catholic church because of my catholic beliefs. I don't see how any catholic can follow the church and call themselves a catholic.

My children can make up their own minds, there only 13 so too young to be trying to decide, but they get a balanced view of religion and it's up to themselves.

Cabaal · 08-09-2014 2:36pm

Gumbi wrote: »

You realise that over 90% of primary schools in Ireland are Catholic? Virtually no one has a choice in this matter.

Generally people that make such flippant off the cuff remarks think they are making some of smart remarks don't understand the actual reality of the situation when it comes to schools in Ireland and the fact that even the UN has criticized Ireland for this reality.

hinault · 08-09-2014 4:26pm

bajer101 wrote: »

My seven year old daughter moved to a Catholic school from an Educate Together school for logistical reasons. I'm a single Dad and am an atheist. I have always told my daughter that she can believe whatever she wants but that it would be better to wait until she is older to make her mind up as it is a very complicated subject.

I knew that moving her to a Catholic school would involve some religious teaching, but I thought that in this day and age it would be minimal. The trouble started on the first day when the class were colouring in a picture of Jesus and my daughter announced that she didn't believe in God. Her teacher told her that if said that again that she would be sent back to her old school! The other kids also seemed to gang up on her a bit over this. Over the next few days the subject came up again and she was sent to the principal's office and the principal told her that she had to believe in God!

My daughter is very upset over this and has feigned sickness to avoid going to school and last night she even disabled the alarm on my phone so that I wouldn't wake up in time (her plan worked!).

I am not sure what to do about this. The way I see it I have a few options.
1. Take her out of the school straight away as it is obviously very religiously oriented and there will be no good outcome if she is left there.
2. Get my daughter to play along and go with the flow.
3. Talk to the teacher and principal and try to come up with a reasonable solution.
4. Go all out nuclear and kick up a huge fuss and demand that my daughter be allowed opt out of all religious activity.

Any thoughts or advice would be appreciated.

Find another school for your daughter.

Cabaal · 08-09-2014 4:30pm

hinault wrote: »

Find another school for your daughter.

Nice well thought out comment
:rolleyes:

just curious,
In a situation where the nearest none catholic ethos school is 50miles away whats your solution for a childs education?

bajer101 · 08-09-2014 4:32pm

hinault wrote: »

Find another school for your daughter.

No thanks. I think I'll avail of my constitutional right and have my daughter opt out of religious education in a school that I contribute taxes to.

Gumbi · 08-09-2014 5:16pm

hinault wrote: »

Find another school for your daughter.

Honestly can people really be so ignorant of the reality? More than 90% of this country's primary school are Catholic...

vibe666 · 08-09-2014 5:35pm

Gumbi wrote: »

Honestly can people really be so ignorant of the reality? More than 90% of this country's primary school are Catholic...

unfortunately yes.

and unfortunately, with the way things currently are, for a lot of people, it's a choice of either baptise your kids to get them into a local catholic school, or be left to drive them miles out of your way to your nearest ET school, if you can even get them into one at all as they are all massively over-subscribed because people took a stand and didn't get their kids baptised and then realised how fooked they were with pretty much zero choice of schools locally without a baptismal cert because they didn't have their kids registered at the time they were born (yes, it can be THAT bad).

This is EXACTLY the reason so many people take issue with the census figures being used to dictate educational spending. until there is an accurate list showing how much of the population are practicing catholics who actually want their kids to attend a catholic school, rather than those people who have to baptise their kids just to get them into a decent local school just because it happens to be catholic (as most are).

I've been to several christenings in the last few years and not a single one of them was for practicing catholics. every single one was solely to get their kids into a decent local school.

Brian Shanahan · 08-09-2014 6:50pm

Gumbi wrote: »

Honestly can people really be so ignorant of the reality? More than 90% of this country's primary school are Catholic...

This is hinault we are talking about. I get the feeling that he thinks one must be a holy-roller catholic before they can get an Irish passport or vote in elections.

Cabaal · 08-09-2014 7:17pm

vibe666 wrote: »

This is EXACTLY the reason so many people take issue with the census figures being used to dictate educational spending. until there is an accurate list showing how much of the population are practicing catholics who actually want their kids to attend a catholic school,

Based on the church's own numbers, the numbers going to mass range from 20-30%. So out of the percentage that say they are catholic on the census only 20-30% of those are actually practicing in reality.

Compare that to close to 90% in the 1970's.

Personally I think the solution to all of this is to copy Germany, introduce the church tax.

We can of course do an extra twist with it so it can be used to fund the church's, compensate abuse victims and fund catholic ethos schools so the Irish Tax payer as a whole don't have to pay for catholic run schools anymore (no more state funded catholic ethos schools),

Its all very simple and even the Vatican likes the idea of a church tax...though they may not be happy about it being used to compensate abuse victims

.

Of course people won't like the extra tax and the majority of people who don't have kids will likely be very unhappy about having their church tax going to fund schools so they may opt out in droves. This will of course likely lead to a shortfall in funding for schools.

Schools that want to receive funding from the Irish State again should have to remove their catholic ethos status,

Of course this won't stop communion etc being done....church's can choose to use the church tax to setup "Sunday Schools" and encourage parents to actively get involved in raising their child in the catholic faith....you know....like they agreed to when they splashed water on the child

Brian Shanahan · 08-09-2014 7:36pm

Cabaal wrote: »

Based on the church's own numbers, the numbers going to mass range from 20-30%. So out of the percentage that say they are catholic on the census only 20-30% of those are actually practicing in reality.

And of that 20-30% 10.1% don't believe in god, so they are only going to mass out of habit for definite. And I'm sure that there are a lot more that if pressed would also only be going out of habit, not out of any strongly held belief.

Turtwig · 08-09-2014 7:58pm

Mod: Please leave out the personal stuff.

Brian Shanahan wrote: »

This is hinault we are talking about. I get the feeling that he thinks one must be a holy-roller catholic before they can get an Irish passport or vote in elections.

hinault · 08-09-2014 9:19pm

Cabaal wrote: »

Based on the church's own numbers, the numbers going to mass range from 20-30%. So out of the percentage that say they are catholic on the census only 20-30% of those are actually practicing in reality.

Compare that to close to 90% in the 1970's.

Personally I think the solution to all of this is to copy Germany, introduce the church tax.

We can of course do an extra twist with it so it can be used to fund the church's, compensate abuse victims and fund catholic ethos schools so the Irish Tax payer as a whole don't have to pay for catholic run schools anymore (no more state funded catholic ethos schools),

Its all very simple and even the Vatican likes the idea of a church tax...though they may not be happy about it being used to compensate abuse victims .

Of course people won't like the extra tax and the majority of people who don't have kids will likely be very unhappy about having their church tax going to fund schools so they may opt out in droves. This will of course likely lead to a shortfall in funding for schools.

Schools that want to receive funding from the Irish State again should have to remove their catholic ethos status,

Of course this won't stop communion etc being done....church's can choose to use the church tax to setup "Sunday Schools" and encourage parents to actively get involved in raising their child in the catholic faith....you know....like they agreed to when they splashed water on the child

Current expenditure and capital expenditure with the "education industry" annually runs in to billions - billions of tax revenue that is.

If the Department of Education were so minded, it could easily afford to build numerous "non-Catholic ethos" schools.

My own guess is that there isn't sufficient demand - among parents - to send their offspring to such schools and they are in fact more than happy to send their children to Catholic-ethos schools.

bajer101 · 08-09-2014 9:25pm

hinault wrote: »

Find another school for your daughter.

Brian Shanahan wrote: »

This is hinault we are talking about. I get the feeling that he thinks one must be a holy-roller catholic before they can get an Irish passport or vote in elections.

Turtwig wrote: »

Mod: Please leave out the personal stuff.

Could I ask that people also bear in mind that this is my seven year old daughter that they are commenting on and that this is very personal to me. Throwing out a simplistic, unhelpful reply while obviously not reading the thread can be quite hurtful to someone who is dealing with a genuinely traumatic issue.

EunanMac · 08-09-2014 10:01pm

bajer101 wrote: »

Could I ask that people also bear in mind that this is my seven year old daughter that they are commenting on and that this is very personal to me. Throwing out a simplistic, unhelpful reply while obviously not reading the thread can be quite hurtful to someone who is dealing with a genuinely traumatic issue.

Did you explain to the school yet she's not to be taught Catholicism ?

Fluffybums · 08-09-2014 10:16pm

Odd question, has anyone taken this issue to the European court of human rights. Freedom of worship and belief (or not) is surely enshrined in the human rights legislation, that freedom would include not forcing anyone and particularly a child to 'believe' what another person says they have to. I would also say that the teacher and principle were guilty of bullying - what is the schools bullying policy - hoist them by their own petard.

Mind you the Irish constitution is probably used as an excuse to do nothing and change nothing and exempt the school from complying with the above human rights.

bajer101 · 08-09-2014 10:32pm

EunanMac wrote: »

Did you explain to the school yet she's not to be taught Catholicism ?

Yeah. I sent the Principal an email explaining the situation. I kept the tone of the email very conciliatory and just basically said that my daughter would not be making her Communion and that she was to be excluded from all Religious education. I explained all the reasons behind this decision and was in no way aggressive or adversarial. I haven't received a reply yet.

I also explained to my daughter that she no longer has take part in any Religious education, but that there is no need for her to tell anyone that she doesn't believe in God - that it's none of their business. Hopefully the next stage will just be how the school arranges this. I have a few age appropriate science books ordered from Amazon that she can read if she has to stay in the class while the others are taught Religion. I'd like to think that it will be sorted reasonably, but the way this has been dealt with so far leads me to suspect that her teacher mightn't like this turn of events. But now that the school are aware of my wishes, if there is the slightest hint of any discriminatory treatment I will take whatever action is necessary.

The situation is further complicated by having to inform her mother about this. While she lives in a different country and hasn't seen her in almost three years, I was obliged to tell her about all this today. Although I have sole custody, mothers cannot have guardian rights removed (except in cases of adoption), so that adds another layer of complexity to the situation. Guardian's have a say over a child's Religious upbringing and she is a born again Christian so I'm expecting this to be used against me.

I'll update this thread with what happens.

Gumbi · 08-09-2014 11:01pm

hinault wrote: »

Current expenditure and capital expenditure with the "education industry" annually runs in to billions - billions of tax revenue that is.

If the Department of Education were so minded, it could easily afford to build numerous "non-Catholic ethos" schools.

My own guess is that there isn't sufficient demand - among parents - to send their offspring to such schools and they are in fact more than happy to send their children to Catholic-ethos schools.

Just because something is the way it is doesn't mean it's right. I imagine there is quite a bit of the Irish attitude of inwardly knowing a problem exists but outwardly pretending it doesn't and adhering to the status quo.

The state sponsored default should not be to favour Catholic children regardless of whether they are the majority OR the minority. It should be irrelevant.

Education should be freely available to all and saying "there's not enough demand for it" is not good enough.

bajer101 · 08-09-2014 11:06pm

hinault wrote: »

Current expenditure and capital expenditure with the "education industry" annually runs in to billions - billions of tax revenue that is.

If the Department of Education were so minded, it could easily afford to build numerous "non-Catholic ethos" schools.

My own guess is that there isn't sufficient demand - among parents - to send their offspring to such schools and they are in fact more than happy to send their children to Catholic-ethos schools.

I've discussed this with my seven year old daughter and how it pertains to her being told that she has to believe in God and she suggests that you start your own thread.

Pwindedd · 08-09-2014 11:22pm

As a non irish parent, I find the whole way that state funded education is organised around the religion of the parents is actually quite bizarre. And let's be honest - no child of primary school entry age has the first clue about what religion they actually are. Local schools should serve local families, that's about the limit of screening that should apply IMO. My daughter is almost out of the school system, and I sincerely hope that when her time comes to choose a school for her children, she has more options than Baptise or Commute.

Nomis21 · 08-09-2014 11:34pm

I am also non Irish single parent. I can't understand the stranglehold the Catholic Church still has on the education system in this country.

It is plainly unhealthy for the minds of our children.

realdanbreen · 08-09-2014 11:54pm

Nomis21 wrote: »

I am also non Irish single parent. I can't understand the stranglehold the Catholic Church still has on the education system in this country.

It is plainly unhealthy for the minds of our children.

Have you any knowledge of the history of the irish education system and the role the catholic church played in educating our children,against all the odds and the oppression we were under. And no, I don,t need to be told about the sex abusive clergy- bear in mind that 90% of child sex abuse is carried out by the childs relations or family "friends"

hinault · 09-09-2014 12:11am

bajer101 wrote: »

I've discussed this with my seven year old daughter and how it pertains to her being told that she has to believe in God and she suggests that you start your own thread.

Be sure to mention to your daughter that the suggestion I posted and which you discussed, was in reply to another posters earlier point.

vibe666 · 09-09-2014 12:13am

realdanbreen wrote: »

Have you any knowledge of the history of the irish education system and the role the catholic church played in educating our children,against all the odds and the oppression we were under. And no, I don,t need to be told about the sex abusive clergy- bear in mind that 90% of child sex abuse is carried out by the childs relations or family "friends"

so only 10% of child sex abuse in ireland is carried out by the clergy?

phew, that's a relief, what was everything thinking making such a big fuss about it all and the head of the church in ireland resigning and making a big apology and all that nonsense, sure it was hardly worth them even mentioning it. :rolleyes:

bajer101 · 09-09-2014 12:14am

realdanbreen wrote: »

Have you any knowledge of the history of the irish education system and the role the catholic church played in educating our children,against all the odds and the oppression we were under. And no, I don,t need to be told about the sex abusive clergy- bear in mind that 90% of child sex abuse is carried out by the childs relations or family "friends"

hinault wrote: »

Be sure to mention to your daughter that the suggestion I posted and which you discussed, was in reply to another posters earlier point.

I did. She wants the 10% of time that is wasted teaching Religion to be spent teaching punctuation.

hinault · 09-09-2014 12:16am

Gumbi wrote: »

Just because something is the way it is doesn't mean it's right. I imagine there is quite a bit of the Irish attitude of inwardly knowing a problem exists but outwardly pretending it doesn't and adhering to the status quo.

The state sponsored default should not be to favour Catholic children regardless of whether they are the majority OR the minority. It should be irrelevant.

Education should be freely available to all and saying "there's not enough demand for it" is not good enough.

The parents of pupils appear to accept, as you put it, the status quo.

Education being free for all?
There is no such thing as free education anywhere in the first world.

hinault · 09-09-2014 12:17am

bajer101 wrote: »

I did.

Well done.

Daughter forced to believe in God

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