Daughter forced to believe in God

vibe666 · 09-09-2014 12:22am

hinault wrote: »

The parents of pupils appear to accept, as you put it, the status quo.

try and get your kid into an ET school and you'll find out differently, you won't get near one in Dublin unless your children are registered years in advance of actually needing a place even though they are only multi-denominational rather than non-denominational, for any child without a baptismal cert, they are pretty much the only option.

the "status quo" is unfair to all children in the state, not to mention illegal under EU law and the Irish constitution for state funded schools and it HAS to change.

hinault · 09-09-2014 12:27am

vibe666 wrote: »

try and get your kid into an ET school and you'll find out differently, you won't get near one in Dublin unless your children are registered years in advance of actually needing a place even though they are only multi-denominational rather than non-denominational, for any child without a baptismal cert, they are pretty much the only option.

If there is a demand for non-Catholic ethos schools, you'd see school being built.

I don't believe that there is such demand in this country.

Even look at others countries such as England, who consider themselves to be "secular", and where there is a large supply of "non-ethos" schools, the demand for places at Catholic-ethos schools is increasing.

Gumbi · 09-09-2014 12:48am

hinault wrote: »

If there is a demand for non-Catholic ethos schools, you'd see school being built.

I don't believe that there is such demand in this country.

Even look at others countries such as England, who consider themselves to be "secular", and where there is a large supply of "non-ethos" schools, the demand for places at Catholic-ethos schools is increasing.

Like I said earlier, it shouldn't matter. Whether there is a Catholic majority or minority in the country.

On the other, I think it's also a matter of the Irish psyche - we know there's a problem but we pretend it's not there. Like the non-Catholic allowing their child to be confirmed etc. rationalising "ah sher it'll do no harm".

bajer101 · 09-09-2014 12:50am

hinault wrote: »

If there is a demand for non-Catholic ethos schools, you'd see school being built.

I don't believe that there is such demand in this country.

Even look at others countries such as England, who consider themselves to be "secular", and where there is a large supply of "non-ethos" schools, the demand for places at Catholic-ethos schools is increasing.

So there is no demand for non-Catholic ethos schools? I must have imagined the double decker prefabs that the Educate Together school near me have had to build to meet demand. We are seeing the the non-Catholic schools being built which proves that there is a demand. Most of the new schools being built are non-Catholic!

But the problem is with the pre-existing Catholic schools where parents have no choice. I started this thread to ask for advice about a problem I experienced. You suggested that I move her to a different school. I live in Dublin 13, and she is in second class. Would you care to suggest which school I should move her to? Bear in mind that I am a single parent who works full time.

hinault · 09-09-2014 12:51am

Gumbi wrote: »

Like I said earlier, it shouldn't matter. Whether there is a Catholic majority or minority in the country.

On the other, I think it's also a matter of the Irish psyche - we know there's a problem but we pretend it's not there. Like the non-Catholic allowing their child to be confirmed etc. rationalising "ah sher it'll do no harm".

How do you explain the increasing demand by parents seeking admission to Catholic-ethos schools in England?

vibe666 · 09-09-2014 12:53am

hinault wrote: »

If there is a demand for non-Catholic ethos schools, you'd see school being built.

I don't believe that there is such demand in this country.

you don't appear to know anything at all.

As I have already pointed out, there IS a demand for non-catholic schools and they ARE being built, just not fast enough, despite that extremely high demand and I'm afraid that your ignorance of the facts isn't going to change the reality of it.

http://www.herald.ie/news/calls-for-new-irish-school-as-waiting-list-overflowing-30517663.html

Meanwhile, Luke O'Shaughnessy, the spokesperson for the Educate Together schools, said that some of its schools in Dublin, "receive up to five times the number of children's names than they can actually accommodate with school places each year.

"Given the high demand, families tend to put their children's names on waiting lists very early" he said.

"We've heard anecdotal evidence of parents registering their child's name with the local Educate Together school right after the child's birth," he said.

He said that the "welcome opening of six new Educate Together schools this September will not be enough to meet the rising demand for multi-denominational school places in Ireland, and additional provision is badly needed".

He said that the Department of Education has acknowledged that there is need for an Educate Together primary school in 25 areas around Ireland.

"Educate Together's own evidence from requests to its offices and schools and from public census and survey data would double that figure," he said.

FUN FACT of the day, did you know that 50% of current ET students are actually Catholic?

hinault wrote: »

Even look at others countries such as England, who consider themselves to be "secular", and where there is a large supply of "non-ethos" schools, the demand for places at Catholic-ethos schools is increasing.

England is not secular, it is Protestant Christian and that is *officially*, not just my opinion.

bajer101 · 09-09-2014 12:53am

hinault wrote: »

How do you explain the increasing demand by parents seeking admission to Catholic-ethos schools in England?

Same reason I was sent to a private Jesuit school. Nothing to do with a desire for Catholic religious indoctrination, but more to do with the private nature of these schools and better resources and exam results. I believe that demand for Eton is fairly high too.

vibe666 · 09-09-2014 12:55am

hinault wrote: »

How do you explain the increasing demand by parents seeking admission to Catholic-ethos schools in England?

what's that got to do with anything? how do you explain the price of cheese in Switzerland?

We are in Ireland talking about the Irish education system.

shruikan2553 · 09-09-2014 12:57am

hinault wrote: »

How do you explain the increasing demand by parents seeking admission to Catholic-ethos schools in England?

Racial segregation. Do you really think they are all just wanting a bit of Catholicism?

In terms of Ireland people can think there is a demand for whatever they like, it doesn't trump another persons rights.

realdanbreen · 09-09-2014 12:59am

vibe666 wrote: »

so only 10% of child sex abuse in ireland is carried out by the clergy? . :rolleyes:

Correct. In fact less than that AFAIK. It's amazing what you learn when you actually check the facts and dig a little deeper than page 1 of the tabloids.

Gumbi · 09-09-2014 12:59am

hinault wrote: »

How do you explain the increasing demand by parents seeking admission to Catholic-ethos schools in England?

I don't. It's another country and not my concern. I think religious schools should be private anyways.

hinault · 09-09-2014 1:01am

bajer101 wrote: »

But the problem is with the pre-existing Catholic schools where parents have no choice. I started this thread to ask for advice about a problem I experienced. You suggested that I move her to a different school. I live in Dublin 13, and she is in second class. Would you care to suggest which school I should move her to? Bear in mind that I am a single parent who works full time.

It would appear that there are several options proximate to Dublin 13.

http://www.educatetogether.ie/schools/county/?county=Fingal

hinault · 09-09-2014 1:05am

bajer101 wrote: »

Same reason I was sent to a private Jesuit school. Nothing to do with a desire for Catholic religious indoctrination, but more to do with the private nature of these schools and better resources and exam results. I believe that demand for Eton is fairly high too.

It was your parents/legal guardians decision to send you to the school that you ended up attending, for whatever reason they may have had in mind.

hinault · 09-09-2014 1:07am

vibe666 wrote: »

what's that got to do with anything?.

It shows that even where there is the widespread option of non-Catholic ethos education, more and more parents are choosing to send their children to Catholic-ethos schools.

bajer101 · 09-09-2014 1:07am

realdanbreen wrote: »

Correct. In fact less than that AFAIK. It's amazing what you learn when you actually check the facts and dig a little deeper than page 1 of the tabloids.

Considering that the clergy constitute less than 0.1% of the population and that they are responsible for 10% of child abuse, that means that they are more than 100 times more likely to abuse a child than a non clergy member. So what's your point?

bajer101 · 09-09-2014 1:10am

hinault wrote: »

It would appear that there are several options proximate to Dublin 13.

http://www.educatetogether.ie/schools/county/?county=Fingal

They're all full with huge waiting lists. You said I should send my daughter to a different school. I ask you again - where should I send her?

hinault wrote: »

It was your parents/legal guardians decision to send you to the school that you ended up attending, for whatever reason they may have had in mind.

The reason they had in mind was as I said - private school with better exam results - the same reason that private schools in England and the US are popular. Nothing to do with Catholicism.

vibe666 · 09-09-2014 1:17am

hinault wrote: »

It shows that even where there is the widespread option of non-Catholic ethos education, more and more parents are choosing to send their children to Catholic-ethos schools.

No it doesn't, it shows that people in the UK want to send their kids to schools with good exam results.

Or do you think significant numbers of non-Catholic English people are rushing out to get their kids indoctrinated into the Catholic faith because they randomly decided that they want them to become Catholics?

Yeah, that must be it.

beauf · 09-09-2014 1:30am

I think ye are all going widely off topic.

if the teacher and/or principle decide to go against your wishes what you can you realistically do. What are Teachers or Principles obliged to adhere to. Who enforces these.

beauf · 09-09-2014 1:31am

vibe666 wrote: »

No it doesn't, it shows that people in the UK want to send their kids to schools with good exam results...

Why do these schools have better results?

Gumbi · 09-09-2014 1:39am

beauf wrote: »

Why do these schools have better results?

Probably because they are private.

vibe666 · 09-09-2014 1:39am

They are obliged to follow the Irish constitution that guarantees every child an education without religious indoctrination.

Complaints go in the order of: to the teacher (unless it is about them) > the principle (unless about them) > school management board > the ETB.

Chimichangas · 09-09-2014 1:40am

bajer101 wrote:

My seven year old daughter moved to a Catholic school from an Educate Together school for logistical reasons. I'm a single Dad and am an atheist. I have always told my daughter that she can believe whatever she wants but that it would be better to wait until she is older to make her mind up as it is a very complicated subject.

bajer101 wrote:

I knew that moving her to a Catholic school would involve some religious teaching, but I thought that in this day and age it would be minimal. The trouble started on the first day when the class were colouring in a picture of Jesus and my daughter announced that she didn't believe in God. Her teacher told her that if said that again that she would be sent back to her old school! The other kids also seemed to gang up on her a bit over this. Over the next few days the subject came up again and she was sent to the principal's office and the principal told her that she had to believe in God!

it sounds like you didn't talk to the principal, teachers before school started to say that your daughter is not catholic, is atheist, or is being asked to make up her own mind in later life. but you knew it was a catholic school? teacher may have misunderstood the situation as a consequence, I would hope anyway.
see if u can resolve the misunderstanding, or else rethink the situation u found yourself in.

unkel · 09-09-2014 1:52am

vibe666 wrote: »

As I have already pointed out, there IS a demand for non-catholic schools and they ARE being built, just not fast enough, despite that extremely high demand

+1

From your quote:

"We've heard anecdotal evidence of parents registering their child's name with the local Educate Together school right after the child's birth," he said.

I can confirm this.

My 3 children all attend a popular local ET school. All 3 were registered pretty much as soon as we had their birth certs and our middle child still nearly did not make it into the school (she only got in because someone higher on the list, who had already accepted the place and paid the enrolment fee, cancelled 2 days before the school year started)

Chimichangas · 09-09-2014 1:54am

you should have made your wishes known to the school before it started.
and I would hope the teachers reaction was just a foolish mistake due to not knowing the circumstances.
but you should talk or have talked to the teacher too to get their version, u did say your daughter is 7?

bajer101 wrote:

I also explained to my daughter that she no longer has take part in any Religious education, but that there is no need for her to tell anyone that she doesn't believe in God - that it's none of their business. Hopefully the next stage will just be how the school arranges this. I have a few age appropriate science books ordered from Amazon that she can read if she has to stay in the class while the others are taught Religion. I'd like to think that it will be sorted reasonably, but the way this has been dealt with so far leads me to suspect that her teacher mightn't like this turn of events. But now that the school are aware of my wishes, if there is the slightest hint of any discriminatory treatment I will take whatever action is necessary.

and now you are happy for her to be an atheist at 7?

Gumbi · 09-09-2014 2:00am

A 7 year old doesn't even understand the issue of atheism or theism and branding children children as believers/unbelievers is counter productive in my opinion.

vibe666 · 09-09-2014 2:16am

Chimichangas wrote: »

and now you are happy for her to be an atheist at 7?

Everyone is born an atheist, that only changes with indoctrination into a given religion, or in later life, at their own choosing.

The OP has simply decided to let her decide for herself when she is old enough to do so, rather than have her pushed into a particular religion.

Chimichangas · 09-09-2014 6:00am

vibe666 wrote: »

Everyone is born an atheist, that only changes with indoctrination into a given religion, or in later life, at their own choosing.

The OP has simply decided to let her decide for herself when she is old enough to do so, rather than have her pushed into a particular religion.

Everyone is born an atheist? I dont know that. I dont remember.

But it sounds to me like this 7 year old knows what she doesnt believe in, with quite the atheist viewpoint. No indoctrination?

Peregrinus · 09-09-2014 6:40am

vibe666 wrote: »

Everyone is born an atheist . . .

Hold on. You thank Gumbi for his post which says that branding children as unbelievers is counterproductive, and then you immediately post this?

Confused much?

Cabaal · 09-09-2014 8:18am

Chimichangas wrote: »

and now you are happy for her to be an atheist at 7?

and your happy for other 7 year olds to believe in any number of gods from the start within given the opportunity and encouragement to make up their own mind as they get older like the op is allowing?

vibe666 · 09-09-2014 8:21am

Peregrinus wrote: »

Hold on. You thank Gumbi for his post which says that branding children as believers OR unbelievers is counterproductive, and then you immediately post this?

Confused much?

not at all. I can agree with Gumbi's sentiment without ignoring the simple fact that at birth everyone is born with no knowledge or belief in any god(s).

pedant much?

also, FYP.

Daughter forced to believe in God

Comments