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Killing Animals

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    #152
    Macavity.
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,745 ✭✭✭Macavity.


    meathstevie wrote: »
    Ever considered the stress and agony that a dying dog experiences when being transported to the vet and than handled by a stranger that puts a needle into it.

    Total conjecture to be fair. A trip to the vet may not be stressful at all to a particular dog.

    Also, you'd really want to know what you're doing to kill a dog instantly by shooting it. Do it wrong and the animal could be put in a lot of pain. Dogs have been known to last for days after headshots.


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    #153
    Bog Standard User
    Registered Users Posts: 847 ✭✭✭Bog Standard User


    Macavity. wrote: »
    Actually, yes. They are part of the Kingdom of Animalia. Insects are animals, I don't understand why some people can't get that. Baffling. :confused:

    humans are animals too... part of the ape family though there are many that act worse than apes


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    #154
    Yeah_Right
    Registered Users Posts: 5,961 ✭✭✭Yeah_Right


    Nino Brown wrote: »
    Well that depends on your definition of necessary. Flies carry disease, I don't want to eat them, but I don't want them near things I do want to eat either.

    If my girlfriend see's a spider, she freaks out, and starts screaming. Either her or the spider has to go, because I can't be dealing with that, and the law is much more lenient towards the killing of spiders, so the spider's gotta go!:D

    I am in exactly the same boat. In fact its not just spiders. Wasps, bees, mossies, mice. Its much easier disposing of their bodies than hers.


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    #155
    Donnielighto
    Registered Users Posts: 3,761 ✭✭✭Donnielighto


    Yeah_Right wrote: »
    I am in exactly the same boat. In fact its not just spiders. Wasps, bees, mossies, mice. Its much easier disposing of their bodies than hers.



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    #156
    323
    Registered Users Posts: 1,135 ✭✭✭323


    meathstevie wrote: »
    Ever considered the stress and agony that a dying dog experiences when being transported to the vet and than handled by a stranger that puts a needle into it. Needles are not painless either and even the puniest .22lr shot through the brain will have the dog dead on the ground before it's even heard the shot.

    If a dog needs putting down because of attacks on humans or livestock I'd definitely consider shooting it before I'd go down the road of trapping and transporting to the vet and all. Nothing cruel about it, instantaneous when done properly.

    +1

    Took a relations dog to the vet once to be put down, in reality months after the poor bugger should have been put down, they did'nt want to themselves. Awful how stressed the dog became going there, waiting then the actual injection. Will never do this again.

    Next time I have to, dog will go for a drive, then a short walk and get a unexpected 22lr in the back of the head.

    Instant lights out. Much more humane.

    “Follow the trend lines, not the headlines,”



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    #157
    pq0n1ct4ve8zf5
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,070 ✭✭✭✭pq0n1ct4ve8zf5


    Hotfail.com wrote: »
    I love the way on threads like this that the vegetarians/do-gooders always come out and attack the people who try their best not to kill animals themselves and complete ignore the people who say they pull apart flies/worms for fun... :rolleyes:

    I think the point is that the weirdos pulling insects apart for fun at least have the attitude of "yeah, they're just animals, I eat them too, so what", whereas the other kind can seem like they're taking some kind of personal pride or sense of moral correctness for not deliberately killing insects while having no problem with eating the dead bodies of mammals and birds which are killed on an industrial level, which have far more complex brains and nervous systems, and which you do not need to eat to be healthy. There's at least consistency in the "lol, flies, let's burn them" mindset, but "aw, poor slugs, mmm, bacon" is a bit all over the place.

    Obviously nobody can go through life without being directly or indirectly involved in the deaths of a shítload of animals, and obviously it'd be a disaster if we woke up tomorrow and everyone was a vegetarian, but on a individual level not eating meat is actually one of the least disruptive, simplest choices you can make to opt out of some of that death. It's not health or necessity that stops people doing it, it's selfish prioritization of their pleasure over an animal's pain and death.


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    #158
    Hotfail.com
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,928 ✭✭✭Hotfail.com


    Amani Nice Hatchet wrote: »
    I think the point is that the weirdos pulling insects apart for fun at least have the attitude of "yeah, they're just animals, I eat them too, so what", whereas the other kind can seem like they're taking some kind of personal pride or sense of moral correctness for not deliberately killing insects while having no problem with eating the dead bodies of mammals and birds which are killed on an industrial level, which have far more complex brains and nervous systems, and which you do not need to eat to be healthy. There's at least consistency in the "lol, flies, let's burn them" mindset, but "aw, poor slugs, mmm, bacon" is a bit all over the place.

    Obviously nobody can go through life without being directly or indirectly involved in the deaths of a shítload of animals, and obviously it'd be a disaster if we woke up tomorrow and everyone was a vegetarian, but on a individual level not eating meat is actually one of the least disruptive, simplest choices you can make to opt out of some of that death. It's not health or necessity that stops people doing it, it's selfish prioritization of their pleasure over an animal's pain and death.

    I'm going to say this in the most ignorant-sounding way possible just because it's how I actually feel, so sorry in advance.. :p

    It doesn't make me feel guilty that animals have to die so I can eat a burger, so I'm not going to stop. Is it selfish? Yep, I agree completely, and I don't care either tbh.

    I don't kill flies etc. btw, mainly because the effort of killing them/letting them out outweighs how much annoyance they cause me. I just leave them at it.


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    #159
    kneemos
    Registered Users Posts: 20,409 ✭✭✭✭kneemos


    Amani Nice Hatchet wrote: »
    I think the point is that the weirdos pulling insects apart for fun at least have the attitude of "yeah, they're just animals, I eat them too, so what", whereas the other kind can seem like they're taking some kind of personal pride or sense of moral correctness for not deliberately killing insects while having no problem with eating the dead bodies of mammals and birds which are killed on an industrial level, which have far more complex brains and nervous systems, and which you do not need to eat to be healthy. There's at least consistency in the "lol, flies, let's burn them" mindset, but "aw, poor slugs, mmm, bacon" is a bit all over the place.

    Obviously nobody can go through life without being directly or indirectly involved in the deaths of a shítload of animals, and obviously it'd be a disaster if we woke up tomorrow and everyone was a vegetarian, but on a individual level not eating meat is actually one of the least disruptive, simplest choices you can make to opt out of some of that death. It's not health or necessity that stops people doing it, it's selfish prioritization of their pleasure over an animal's pain and death.

    So in your mind two wrongs are better than one wrong.


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    #160
    DeadHand
    Registered Users Posts: 2,720 ✭✭✭DeadHand


    Amani Nice Hatchet wrote: »
    It's not health or necessity that stops people doing it, it's selfish prioritization of their pleasure over an animal's pain and death

    Farm animals owe their existence to the fact that they and their produce are eaten and otherwise utilised by humans.

    If they were not consumed their breeding and rearing simply would not occur. They do not occur naturally. Great herds of fresians and charlois did not roam wild and free over the plains of Meath before the coming of the Gael.

    This country operates to the the highest levels of animal welfare at all stages of an animals life and Irish farmers are in general a decent and knowledgeable lot not in the habit of mistreating animals deliberately or otherwise. These animals are in the vast majority of cases well fed, watered, housed with all necessary veterinary care. I'd argue that food animals enjoy more comfortable and less stressful lives than most wild animals.

    At the point of slaughter all possible measures are taken to minimise the stress felt by the animal. To this end, staff are trained in animal handling and welfare. Facilities are especially designed to aid in the safe, stress free and humane handling of animals. The slaughter is carried out under the strictest veterinary and departmental supervision.

    Death, when it comes, is entirely painless if done correctly (which is almost always).

    The sole purpose of their existence is to be consumed. If non-existence is preferable to as good a life as possible, pain and eventual death then we've all been dealt a bad hand.

    Eating meat is not selfish, as you suggest, or immoral, as you seem to suggest. And it isn't just for pleasure. We need protein and iron. Meat is an integral part of a balanced, healthy diet. Moreover, in this country at least, it is produced humanely and ethically.

    If animals dying for our purposes is selfish to you then along with forgoing the meat you should also consider shunning less essential products made with animal ingredients. Things like cosmetics, leather, toothpaste, pet food, plastic, soap etc.

    Wouldn't want to be a hypocrite now, would you?


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    #161
    Skullface McGubbin
    Registered Users Posts: 455 ✭✭Skullface McGubbin


    Any insect or arachnid that finds it's way into my house is fair game. They're a nuisance. Especially during the humid days of summer when many of them are most interested in making their way in.


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    #162
    pq0n1ct4ve8zf5
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,070 ✭✭✭✭pq0n1ct4ve8zf5


    DeadHand wrote: »
    Farm animals owe their existence to the fact that they and their produce are eaten and otherwise utilised by humans.

    If they were not consumed their breeding and rearing simply would not occur. They do not occur naturally. Great herds of fresians and charlois did not roam wild and free over the plains of Meath before the coming of the Gael.

    I realise all that, hence why I said in the post you quoted "It'd be a disaster if we woke up tomorrow and everyone was a vegetarian"
    This country operates to the the highest levels of animal welfare at all stages of an animals life and Irish farmers are in general a decent and knowledgeable lot not in the habit of mistreating animals deliberately or otherwise. These animals are in the vast majority of cases well fed, watered, housed with all necessary veterinary care. I'd argue that food animals enjoy more comfortable and less stressful lives than most wild animals.

    At the point of slaughter all possible measures are taken to minimise the stress felt by the animal. To this end, staff are trained in animal handling and welfare. Facilities are especially designed to aid in the safe, stress free and humane handling of animals. The slaughter is carried out under the strictest veterinary and departmental supervision.

    Death, when it comes, is entirely painless if done correctly (which is almost always).

    Standards in this country are incredibly good, the end result though - a dead animal bred, raised and killed for the purpose of being eaten for pleasure - is the same
    The sole purpose of their existence is to be consumed. If non-existence is preferable to as good a life as possible, pain and eventual death then we've all been dealt a bad hand.

    we disagree on that point, I'm afraid, but it's a bit beside the point as well.
    Eating meat is not selfish, as you suggest, or immoral, as you seem to suggest. And it isn't just for pleasure. We need protein and iron. Meat is an integral part of a balanced, healthy diet. Moreover, in this country at least, it is produced humanely and ethically.

    Protein and iron are perfectly easily to obtain without meat or fish. It is produced as humanely and ethically as it is practical to do within a system which breeds animals for slaughter and consumption.
    If animals dying for our purposes is selfish to you then along with forgoing the meat you should also consider shunning less essential products made with animal ingredients. Things like cosmetics, leather, toothpaste, pet food, plastic, soap etc.

    Wouldn't want to be a hypocrite now, would you?

    Like I said up above, I'm talking about things on an individual level. On an individual level, it is in no way necessary to eat meat and it's very, very easy not to. It's more hassle to be careful about soap etc. but many people do, of course then you're getting in to things like farming/factory practices, and most importantly the ethical treatment of human beings. Also you might be surprised but most vegetarians avoid things like leather.

    I am a hypocrite, everyone is. It doesn't mean "I don't kill flies with my own bare hands because that's wrong but killing pigs as long as I don't have to do is fine" is not also a hypocritical position.


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    #163
    pq0n1ct4ve8zf5
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,070 ✭✭✭✭pq0n1ct4ve8zf5


    Hotfail.com wrote: »
    I'm going to say this in the most ignorant-sounding way possible just because it's how I actually feel, so sorry in advance.. :p

    It doesn't make me feel guilty that animals have to die so I can eat a burger, so I'm not going to stop. Is it selfish? Yep, I agree completely, and I don't care either tbh.

    I don't kill flies etc. btw, mainly because the effort of killing them/letting them out outweighs how much annoyance they cause me. I just leave them at it.

    I actually am really not overly bothered about people eating meat, it's their life and their choice, it's just not something I want to do. I've been a vegetarian my whole life and the biggest thing it's taught me is to not be judgmental, but it does make a bit more obvious the slightly schizoid thinking that comes with being a meat eater in an industrial society - there's a real disconnect between what you're eating and what it actually is. There can be a tendency with vegetarians to make that into a whole big thing along the lines of "If everyone saw where their food was coming from, nobody would eat meat", which is bull, some people just don't really care about animals (and I'm not making a moral judgment on that, animals are not people, and there's far worse things in the world to not care about) and like eating meat.

    But the position you laid out there "yep, I like eating animals, yep it's selfish, nope I don't care" is consistent, a lot of the stuff people come out with really isn't.


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    #164
    DeadHand
    Registered Users Posts: 2,720 ✭✭✭DeadHand


    Amani Nice Hatchet wrote: »
    I've been a vegetarian my whole life and the biggest thing it's taught me is to not be judgmental

    Has it?

    'Cos this seems like a judgmental attitude to me.
    Amani Nice Hatchet wrote: »
    It's not health or necessity that stops people doing it, it's selfish prioritization of their pleasure over an animal's pain and death


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    #165
    DeadHand
    Registered Users Posts: 2,720 ✭✭✭DeadHand


    Amani Nice Hatchet wrote: »
    there's a real disconnect between what you're eating and what it actually is.

    I assume you're trying to say there is some disconnect between what you're eating and what you think it actually is. Irish meat is probably among the most traceable in the world. Buy Irish and no such disconnect exists. Obviously, if you're going to take junk options then the bit of horse will probably be the most wholesome part of your meal.

    some people just don't really care about animals and like eating meat

    Of course. Thankfully they are massively outnumbered by the majority who care about animals and like eating meat. One does not exclude the other.
    But the position you laid out there "yep, I like eating animals, yep it's selfish, nope I don't care" is consistent, a lot of the stuff people come out with really isn't.

    Eating meat is no more selfish than wearing shoes or sleeping indoors.


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    #166
    Da Shins Kelly
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,048 ✭✭✭Da Shins Kelly


    I don't kill anything. I have a couple of spiders living in my room with me and they don't bother me at all. If flies come in, I just leave the windows open for a while and they usually fly out themselves or if they don't, the spiders get them eventually. I don't really like moths and how flappy they are, I usually try all means necessary to get them out as fast as possible if they come in.

    I've never killed anything big like a dog or a cat. Our neighbour likes to act the hard man and go on about how he'd shoot any dog that came on his property (seriously doubt the dude even has a gun). Can't really fathom that attitude, honestly, unless the dog was trying to attack you. Our other neighbour's dogs come into our garden sometimes and potter about the place. They don't give any bit of bother at all, just sniffing about and playing with our dogs, and yet this guy still complains. Unless the dog is actually causing trouble, I really don't see the problem or why you'd have to start threatening somebody's animal.


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    #167
    Shenshen
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 9,453 Mod ✭✭✭✭Shenshen


    meathstevie wrote: »
    Ever considered the stress and agony that a dying dog experiences when being transported to the vet and than handled by a stranger that puts a needle into it. Needles are not painless either and even the puniest .22lr shot through the brain will have the dog dead on the ground before it's even heard the shot.

    If a dog needs putting down because of attacks on humans or livestock I'd definitely consider shooting it before I'd go down the road of trapping and transporting to the vet and all. Nothing cruel about it, instantaneous when done properly.

    I don't know about your "vet", but when one of our cat was dying of cancer, the vet came to the house to give her the shot. She died in our arms, and it was absolutely incredibly fast, I'm talking split seconds.


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    #168
    b318isp
    Registered Users Posts: 1,626 ✭✭✭b318isp


    Well, to broaden the conversation a bit, what about whole scale killing (other than for food) such as:

    - Culling over-populations (e.g. rabbits, and assuming a detrimental effect)
    - Killing of vermin (e.g. rats)
    - Killing due to infestation (e.g. ants, termites, wasps)
    - Use of antibiotics and disinfectants to kill bacteria
    - The body's natural defences which kill bacteria and viruses
    - Cooking or pasteurisation to kill pathogens

    In these cases there are usually clearer (human) benefits or natural processes at work, so morally it feels more acceptable.

    If this is so, then it appears there may be some threshold in which people may accept killing an animal where they may otherwise not. So, it could be suggested that there is no universal answer on whether it is right or wrong - only a discussion on where the threshold lies.


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    #169
    kneemos
    Registered Users Posts: 20,409 ✭✭✭✭kneemos


    b318isp wrote: »
    Well, to broaden the conversation a bit, what about whole scale killing (other than for food) such as:

    - Culling over-populations (e.g. rabbits, and assuming a detrimental effect)
    - Killing of vermin (e.g. rats)
    - Killing due to infestation (e.g. ants, termites, wasps)
    - Use of antibiotics and disinfectants to kill bacteria
    - The body's natural defences which kill bacteria and viruses
    - Cooking or pasteurisation to kill pathogens

    In these cases there are usually clearer (human) benefits or natural processes at work, so morally it feels more acceptable.

    If this is so, then it appears there may be some threshold in which people may accept killing an animal where they may otherwise not. So, it could be suggested that there is no universal answer on whether it is right or wrong - only a discussion on where the threshold lies.

    The threshold is obvious,annoying,pest,or for food.
    As I've said before killing animals is fine when it's necessary it's unnecessary killing that people have a problem with.


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    #170
    b318isp
    Registered Users Posts: 1,626 ✭✭✭b318isp


    kneemos wrote: »
    The threshold is obvious,annoying,pest,or for food.
    As I've said before killing animals is fine when it's necessary it's unnecessary killing that people have a problem with.

    What is "annoying" or "pest" for other people though?

    The barking dog next door?
    The starlings keeping you awake at 5am?

    Are spiders, beetles, ladybirds pests - and would everyone agree on this?

    Would vegetarians and vegans clearly agree with the food justification?


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    #171
    Donnielighto
    Registered Users Posts: 3,761 ✭✭✭Donnielighto


    I care for animals, I look after them when sick. I kill them and I eat them.

    Meat is a significant part of my diet and I don't see anything wrong with that.


    I have more of an issue with someone who puts an animal through misery but doesn't kill it than someone who gives them a reasonable existence until they are sent to the abattoir etc.


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    #172
    kneemos
    Registered Users Posts: 20,409 ✭✭✭✭kneemos


    b318isp wrote: »
    What is "annoying" or "pest" for other people though?

    The barking dog next door?
    The starlings keeping you awake at 5am?

    Are spiders, beetles, ladybirds pests - and would everyone agree on this?

    Would vegetarians and vegans clearly agree with the food justification?

    Whatever's a problem for you.
    A barking dog can be dealt with in other ways,though I have heard of dogs being poisoned.If your kept awake all night I'm sure there's many a dog lover who fantasised about pulling the trigger.


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    #173
    b318isp
    Registered Users Posts: 1,626 ✭✭✭b318isp


    kneemos wrote: »
    Whatever's a problem for you.
    A barking dog can be dealt with in other ways,though I have heard of dogs being poisoned.If your kept awake all night I'm sure there's many a dog lover who fantasised about pulling the trigger.

    Yes, but they are being "annoying" or are being a "pest"; are you saying that killing them is not a reasonable option?

    If so, our individual tolerances gives rise to personal judgements on whether killing is an acceptable solution, and so not obvious at all.


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    #174
    djflawless
    Registered Users Posts: 1,868 ✭✭✭djflawless


    I consider cats pests
    I'd like to treat them the same as a spider
    Swiftly dealt with using the sole of my shoe
    Still at the same time, I wouldn't kill a mouse unless the fecker was eating something in the house, like skirting, presses, my food etc
    People treat different animals different ways
    Fact of life
    Get over ot


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    #175
    comongethappy
    Registered Users Posts: 2,753 ✭✭✭comongethappy


    djflawless wrote: »
    I consider cats pests
    I'd like to treat them the same as a spider
    Swiftly dealt with using the sole of my shoe

    Seek help.


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    #176
    djflawless
    Registered Users Posts: 1,868 ✭✭✭djflawless


    What animals annoy you?can I question your mental health for disagreeing with you??


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    #177
    Shenshen
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 9,453 Mod ✭✭✭✭Shenshen


    kneemos wrote: »
    The threshold is obvious,annoying,pest,or for food.
    As I've said before killing animals is fine when it's necessary it's unnecessary killing that people have a problem with.

    And I think it's the question of what is necessary that is the lynchpin in the conversation.

    Personally, I don't think killing animals for food is necessary in the western world. But most people prefer eating meat to no eating meat, so would consider it a necessity of sorts.

    So even necessity is a question of choice, really :)


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    #178
    Wabbit Ears
    Registered Users Posts: 3,042 ✭✭✭Wabbit Ears


    I kill wasps and Moths.

    Moths are fcuking the spawn of Satan. The must be hunted down and eradicated. What sort of devil insect just disintegrates to dust when stomped on? Seriously, all moths fcuking DIE!!!


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    #179
    b318isp
    Registered Users Posts: 1,626 ✭✭✭b318isp


    djflawless wrote: »
    What animals annoy you?can I question your mental health for disagreeing with you??

    The point here, I think, is that what is obvious to one person, may not be obvious to another.


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    #180
    kneemos
    Registered Users Posts: 20,409 ✭✭✭✭kneemos


    b318isp wrote: »
    Yes, but they are being "annoying" or are being a "pest"; are you saying that killing them is not a reasonable option?

    If so, our individual tolerances gives rise to personal judgements on whether killing is an acceptable solution, and so not obvious at all.

    Individual tolerances are acceptable as nobody cares if you kill a fly.For larger animals you have animal welfare laws.

    The person that shoos the fly out the window is being generous.


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    #181
    Plek Trum
    Registered Users Posts: 1,075 ✭✭✭Plek Trum


    After 3 bites from horseflies this summer - ALL with massive reactions that required antibiotics (Not happy as I'm pregnant), I will happily make an exception and kill them. Dirty dirty vicious little feckers.


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