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SSM Referendum Spring 2015

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13567…69

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    #62
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 41,022 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Zed Bank wrote: »
    Can anyone see it going like this:

    SSM is passed marginally (as it should)

    Catholic loonies throw a fit and start the mother of all **** storms.

    Government give in. Lisbon treaty referenda all over again.

    No.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #63
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 41,022 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    It wont sail in and the Yes side should not be complacent at all.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #64
    comongethappy
    Registered Users Posts: 2,753 ✭✭✭comongethappy


    Zed Bank wrote: »
    Can anyone see it going like this:

    SSM is passed marginally (as it should)

    Catholic loonies throw a fit and start the mother of all **** storms.

    Government give in. Lisbon treaty referenda all over again.

    No..... They simply have no leverage to make that happen.


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    #65
    Doctor Strange
    Closed Accounts Posts: 965 ✭✭✭Doctor Strange


    Joeytheparrot wrote: »
    No.

    I'd say if *any* government of this country tried that, they'd be ran out of Leinster House.


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    #66
    Seaneh
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 18,300 ✭✭✭✭Seaneh


    I think it's going to be a very, very easy victory for the yes side.


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    #67
    pq0n1ct4ve8zf5
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,070 ✭✭✭✭pq0n1ct4ve8zf5


    dxhound2005 wrote: »
    Much of the world is a "hostile place" Illegal in China and not welcome in Russia, illegal all over the Muslim world with imprisonment or death. South Africa is the only African country where it is legal.

    Sure if gay couples can't take a honeymoon in Russia I guess we needn't bother letting them get married.


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    #68
    Muise...
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,512 ✭✭✭Muise...


    dxhound2005 wrote: »
    Much of the world is a "hostile place" Illegal in China and not welcome in Russia, illegal all over the Muslim world with imprisonment or death. South Africa is the only African country where it is legal.

    This is common knowledge. I don't see how it should affect our referendum though.


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    #69
    P_1
    Registered Users Posts: 14,681 ✭✭✭✭P_1


    Manach wrote: »
    I'd say it will be closer than the media pundits expect, inspire of the ill will and name calling on behalf of those who would overturn traditional marriage. Hopefully given the judicial activism in other countries that have overturned democratic votes against this re-definition, there will be a no vote that will safeguard marriage.

    Right I'm going to try to process this in as civilised a manner as I possibly can.

    Firstly traditional marriage will not be overturned, it will merely be extended to same sex couples in a similar manner that the voting franchise wasn't overturned when it was extended to women and the non-landed.

    Also "given the judicial activism in other countries that have overturned democratic votes". That kind of attitude thankfully went out with the rotten boroughs and has no place in a democratic republic in the 21st century.


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    #70
    Daith
    Registered Users Posts: 4,946 ✭✭✭Daith


    Joeytheparrot wrote: »
    It wont sail in and the Yes side should not be complacent at all.

    Correct.

    What will really make the difference is the bill that would allow gay couples to adopt jointly. It destroys any argument I've ever seen from the No side.

    I'm quite happy if someone wants to vote no but I've never heard anyone from the No side give a logical reason other than "it's my choice".


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    #71
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 41,022 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Seaneh wrote: »
    I think it's going to be a very, very easy victory for the yes side.

    Not at all. It will be a hard fought campaign and I genuinely feel very sorry for many young lgbt people who are about to be exposed for the first time to a horrifically nasty campaign.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #72
    freshpopcorn
    Registered Users Posts: 30,365 ✭✭✭✭freshpopcorn


    I started another thread but it was closed due to this one.
    Well I've an older brother who is gay so we'll all support it in my family. Before my brother came out tough my dad(farmer in his early sixties) would have being a bit homophobic.(Not making excuses for him he simply didn't understand) For example if two guys kissed on TV he'd make a comment or I'd he read something he just go on about how being gay was wrong and they'd must have issues in there childhood etc. However when my brother came out he totally changed. He knows now that being gay is perfectly normal. He'd stand up if somebody made a homophobic comment. I remember last Summer there was something about same sex marriage being legalised in the UK on the news. There was a man at our house buying cattle. The man went into a rant about how it was sick/wrong/he used a lot of homophobic language my dad really gave out to him about his attitude and he told him he should be more accepting/etc. I never taught I'd see the day when my dad would do something like this. People of the older generation might vote either way(IMO):some will be accepting whilst others wont . If my brother didn't come out my dad would probably vote NO. I think tough normalising being gay is what changed his attitude.
    I'm in my twenties. I know people and they've good jobs/highly intelligent (doctors/law/is good third level education). Some of these people tough are very homophobic. These people are people who'd deffently go out and vote against gay marriage. I also know similar people who'd vote in favour without a doubt.
    In my personal opinion I'd be dogy of the polls that are being published at the moment. I think it might be a lot closer than the polls show. If it is to be be passed people basically have to try and get everyone out to vote. Also I know of a good few older relatives/neighbours who simply don't understand homosexuality and these people might vote no.


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    #73
    shopaholic01
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,916 ✭✭✭shopaholic01


    dxhound2005 wrote: »
    Much of the world is a "hostile place" Illegal in China and not welcome in Russia, illegal all over the Muslim world with imprisonment or death. South Africa is the only African country where it is legal.
    Do you think gay people would be welcomed with open arms as long as they're nor married?

    A referendum on SSM here has no bearing on homophobic countries. It just means we're leaving that closed-mindedness behind us. Most of us anyway.


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    #74
    dxhound2005
    Registered Users Posts: 20,803 ✭✭✭✭dxhound2005


    Muise... wrote: »
    This is common knowledge. I don't see how it should affect our referendum though.

    It shouldn't. But male couples who want to adopt children from foreign countries won't be able to do so in the same way as heterosexual couples. Presumably one or both of a female marriage could produce their own children. But the parentage of those children would have to involve some male person as well.


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    #75
    _Redzer_
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,056 ✭✭✭_Redzer_


    Zed Bank wrote: »
    Can anyone see it going like this:

    SSM is passed marginally (as it should)

    Catholic loonies throw a fit and start the mother of all **** storms.

    Government give in. Lisbon treaty referenda all over again.

    No, but if the opposite happens, then the result should definitely be overruled.

    I don't know why the nutjobs fight SSM, even if it takes 100 years it's gonna happen, just like interracial marriage.

    Just give up, you've lost the war and you'll never win. Save your money and energy and actually contribute to society instead of behaving like vermin.


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    #76
    PopePalpatine
    Registered Users Posts: 11,865 ✭✭✭✭PopePalpatine


    freshpopcorn wrote: »
    I started another thread but it was closed due to this one.
    Well I've an older brother who is gay so we'll all support it in my family. Before my brother came out tough my dad(farmer in his early sixties) would have being a bit homophobic.(Not making excuses for him he simply didn't understand) For example if two guys kissed on TV he'd make a comment or I'd he read something he just go on about how being gay was wrong and they'd must have issues in there childhood etc. However when my brother came out he totally changed. He knows now that being gay is perfectly normal. He'd stand up if somebody made a homophobic comment. I remember last Summer there was something about same sex marriage being legalised in the UK on the news. There was a man at our house buying cattle. The man went into a rant about how it was sick/wrong/he used a lot of homophobic language my dad really gave out to him about his attitude and he told him he should be more accepting/etc. I never taught I'd see the day when my dad would do something like this. People of the older generation might vote either way(IMO):some will be accepting whilst others wont . If my brother didn't come out my dad would probably vote NO. I think tough normalising being gay is what changed his attitude.
    I'm in my twenties. I know people and they've good jobs/highly intelligent (doctors/law/is good third level education). Some of these people tough are very homophobic. These people are people who'd deffently go out and vote against gay marriage. I also know similar people who'd vote in favour without a doubt.
    In my personal opinion I'd be dogy of the polls that are being published at the moment. I think it might be a lot closer than the polls show. If it is to be be passed people basically have to try and get everyone out to vote. Also I know of a good few older relatives/neighbours who simply don't understand homosexuality and these people might vote no.

    Well said.

    I think a key factor in swinging some elderly voters, who would probably make up the bulk of the anti- side, is to appeal to their sense of empathy.

    That's assuming the RCC hasn't beaten it out of them when they were in school, of course.


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    #77
    Muise...
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,512 ✭✭✭Muise...


    dxhound2005 wrote: »
    It shouldn't. But male couples who want to adopt children from foreign countries won't be able to do so in the same way as heterosexual couples. Presumably one or both of a female marriage could produce their own children. But the parentage of those children would have to involve some male person as well.

    I still don't see your point. No one is saying that passing the referendum on SSM will mean all Irish gay couples will live happily ever after and get to do whatever they want wherever they want in the world.

    If I was to go to many countries in the world I would have to cover my hair and accept that I have very little (if any) legal protection against sexual assault. My awareness of this doesn't mean I won't enjoy and defend my rights in my own country.


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    #78
    comongethappy
    Registered Users Posts: 2,753 ✭✭✭comongethappy


    PopePalpatine wrote: »
    Well said.

    I think a key factor in swinging some elderly voters, who would probably make up the bulk of the anti- side, is to appeal to their sense of empathy.

    That's assuming the RCC hasn't beaten it out of them when they were in school, of course.

    My elderly in-laws seem of the mind that its just love & sure let them get on with it.

    Beware though the youth movements of the RCC, they will bring energy & zeal in equal amounts.

    It will be a vile campaign..... The massive lead in time making it so much worse.


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    #79
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 41,022 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    comongethappy wrote: »

    It will be a vile campaign.....

    I genuinely fear for the mental health of many young lgbt people.

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #80
    Ger Byrne 1
    Registered Users Posts: 49 ✭Ger Byrne 1


    another Referendum
    Great


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    #81
    Woodville56
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,643 ✭✭✭Woodville56


    This whole thing about marriage as a expression of love and equal rights etc. just doesn't do it for me personally. Love isn't just about a ceremony or a piece of paper stating that two people are married. My understanding is that it's about people's care and commitment to each other and a ceremony or marriage licence doesn't add, subtract from that commitment or enrich it's living imo. I have many straight friends and also know some gay couples, some of them in long term "non solemnised" relationships, some married, some in civil partnerships. Like them, I feel the civil union /partnership legislation regularised the tax and inheritance / legal issues, so I'm not sure what the hullabaloo about the public solemnisation of a commitment between two people, which is inherently a personal thing, be that same sex or heterosexual. Maybe a simplistic view but marriage isn't all about being out and proud !


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    #82
    P_1
    Registered Users Posts: 14,681 ✭✭✭✭P_1


    Joeytheparrot wrote: »
    I genuinely fear for the mental health of many young lgbt people.

    Same here. I fear it's going to get very ugly and indignified very quickly.


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    #83
    comongethappy
    Registered Users Posts: 2,753 ✭✭✭comongethappy


    P_1 wrote: »
    Same here. I fear it's going to get very ugly and indignified very quickly.

    The mods here will have their work cut out.

    Over on the under-moderated Journal.ie, it will be carnage.

    Twitter will probably be the main battleground.


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    #84
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 41,022 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    Woodville56 wrote: »
    This whole thing about marriage as a expression of love and equal rights etc. just doesn't do it for me personally. Love isn't just about a ceremony or a piece of paper stating that two people are married. My understanding is that it's about people's care and commitment to each other and a ceremony or marriage licence doesn't add, subtract from that commitment or enrich it's living imo. I have many straight friends and also know some gay couples, some of them in long term "non solemnised" relationships, some married, some in civil partnerships. Like them, I feel the civil union /partnership legislation regularised the tax and inheritance / legal issues, so I'm not sure what the hullabaloo about the public solemnisation of a commitment between two people, which is inherently a personal thing, be that same sex or heterosexual. Maybe a simplistic view but marriage isn't all about being out and proud !

    Actually the Civil Union Act is still deeply unequal.
    http://www.marriagequality.ie/marriageaudit/full-list

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #85
    Woodville56
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,643 ✭✭✭Woodville56


    Joeytheparrot wrote: »
    Not at all. It will be a hard fought campaign and I genuinely feel very sorry for many young lgbt people who are about to be exposed for the first time to a horrifically nasty campaign.

    The nastiness and name calling won't be confined to the "no " side ! You can bet there will be tirades and stupidity coming from both sides I'd say


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    #86
    20Cent
    Registered Users Posts: 8,934 ✭✭✭20Cent


    It will pass by a large margin. Even the older people are much more liberal than a decade ago. The adoption thing will be irrelevant by the time it's held there are no arguments against it.


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    #87
    Zed Bank
    Closed Accounts Posts: 504 ✭✭✭Zed Bank


    P_1 wrote: »
    Same here. I fear it's going to get very ugly and indignified very quickly.

    Hopefully they will be exposed for the morons they are, imo most rational people will laugh at their stupidity.

    It's a disgrace Joe blah blah blah..


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    #88
    _Redzer_
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,056 ✭✭✭_Redzer_


    20Cent wrote: »
    Even the older people are much more liberal than a decade ago.

    I think a lot of them or just dead tbh :P


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    #89
    Daith
    Registered Users Posts: 4,946 ✭✭✭Daith


    Woodville56 wrote: »
    The nastiness and name calling won't be confined to the "no " side ! You can bet there will be tirades and stupidity coming from both sides I'd say

    You want find many a yes sider comparing same sex marriage to marrying a dog....


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    #90
    Foxhound38
    Registered Users Posts: 2,547 ✭✭✭Foxhound38


    Woodville56 wrote: »
    This whole thing about marriage as a expression of love and equal rights etc. just doesn't do it for me personally. Love isn't just about a ceremony or a piece of paper stating that two people are married. My understanding is that it's about people's care and commitment to each other and a ceremony or marriage licence doesn't add, subtract from that commitment or enrich it's living imo. I have many straight friends and also know some gay couples, some of them in long term "non solemnised" relationships, some married, some in civil partnerships. Like them, I feel the civil union /partnership legislation regularised the tax and inheritance / legal issues, so I'm not sure what the hullabaloo about the public solemnisation of a commitment between two people, which is inherently a personal thing, be that same sex or heterosexual. Maybe a simplistic view but marriage isn't all about being out and proud !

    For you it isn't all about being out and proud - but what difference does it make to you if others put more emphasis on the ceremony and going the whole way - vows and marraige cert etc? Why deny them that?

    Legalizing SSM won't mean a thing to me personally (although I might get to go to a few more weddings), and I'm presuming that it won't mean a thing to you either - but it would mean the absolute world to a certain group of our citizens and would cost us nothing to do; so why not just assent for them to get on with their business like everyone else, if not simply out of a sense of nastiness?


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    #91
    B.A._Baracus
    Registered Users Posts: 11,187 ✭✭✭✭B.A._Baracus


    Most people I know have no issue with same-sex marriage.
    But voter turn-out is the key issue and it can swing both ways. Like, I reckon there is alot of people who support SSM but who just don't vote/be arsed to vote. On the flip side you could have people who think being gay is unnatural ... but don't feel a need to vote. Each to their own type of mentality.

    Like I think SSM will be brought in. But if there was a massive record for voter turn out all bets could be off.


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