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Season 4 Finale : HAVE read the books - spoilers possible

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    #32
    Tom.D.BJJ
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,387 ✭✭✭Tom.D.BJJ


    The Hound kicked Brienne right in the mary :D:D:D


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    #33
    RobbingBandit
    Registered Users Posts: 18,099 ✭✭✭✭RobbingBandit


    Captain thought Arya was a Faceless Man.


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    #34
    RobbingBandit
    Registered Users Posts: 18,099 ✭✭✭✭RobbingBandit


    Blay wrote: »
    Jojen is dying in the books anyway, better off killing him now rather than dragging it out.

    Jojen was a greenseer, might be the reason the three eye raven killed him as he could see the future/predict the future and could have told Bran that this guy is an evil ****er, at least that is my guess.


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    #35
    Nerdlingr
    Registered Users Posts: 4,385 ✭✭✭Nerdlingr


    jebidiah wrote: »
    I still don't get why people were still hoping for that this season. It's been pretty obvious for the last few weeks that it wasn't going to happen soon.

    We would need to be reintroduced to the BwB first at least. And there was no way they could have fit that in this episode.

    Im pretty pissed they altered Jamie and Tyrions scene. Especially when they added the Beatle scene last week. I loved that scene, but I'd of dropped that in favor of the actuall conversation

    I was hoping for it because its the ultimate cliffhanger. As I said imagine the non-book readers reaction if the whole season ended on that reveal?
    Dont see how it was pretty obvious. The fact this episode was 60 odd minutes long only gave greater rise to the hope that LS would be in it.
    Re-introducing BwB could be done in about 30 seconds aswell. They come across a group of Freys along the road, Thoros of Myr introduces who they are, take their gold and proceed to string em up. Wouldnt take more than 2 minutes.


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    #36
    username123
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,484 ✭✭✭username123


    Nerdlingr wrote: »
    I was hoping for it because its the ultimate cliffhanger. AS i said imagine the non-book readers reaction if the whole season ended on that reveal?
    Dont see how it was pretty obvious. The fact this episode was 60 odd minutes long only gave greater rise to the hope that LS would be in it.
    Re-introducing BwB could be done in about 30 seconds aswell. They come across a group of Freys along the road, Thoros of Myr introduces who they are, take their gold and proceed to string em up. Wouldnt take more than 2 minutes.

    Yeah Thoros of Myr is very distinctive onscreen, I think it could have been easily handled in a short scene.


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    #37
    chupacabra
    Registered Users Posts: 4,413 ✭✭✭chupacabra


    The butthurt about the lack of Lady Stoneheart is utterly baffling. It would have been a great ending to the season but some people are calling for the show runners to be sacked and hurling personal insults at them. She will appear next season. Its likely that her reveal will happen once Brienne is captured by the BWB later on in season 5 much like how it went down in a feast for crows.

    I am a bit annoyed about the lack of the Tysha story. Jamie and Tyrion parting ways on good terms is nice tv but I really wanted that moment of transformation within Tyrion from relieved and thankful to be free to the broken empty hate filled man that caused him to head for the tower of the hand and define the nature of his character in the later books.

    Also Varys going across the narrow sea with Tyrion? I bet they are going to replace Jon Connington with Varys and let Pycelle die of old age or something.


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    #38
    username123
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,484 ✭✭✭username123


    That The Hound was left with a leg injury lends support to him as the gravedigger on the Quiet Isle.


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    #39
    mrkiscool2
    Registered Users Posts: 5,159 ✭✭✭mrkiscool2


    I just read the non-book readers thread there and they are hailing it as the greatest finale ever. I'd love to not have known what was going to happen but I'm still very annoyed at the way it went down.

    First on the LS thing. I was building up for that. A whole season of waiting because it floored me in the books as well (something that the ASOIAF does to me a good bit but this was one of the biggest shocks for me). I really wanted to see what the reveal would be like, how they would do it etc. I know the BWB will probably capture Brienne early in the new season and we will get the reveal there but still. Infuriating.

    Also, what was with Tryion going to find Tywin? What reason did he have? Why didn't Jaime tell him about Tysha? Like that was most of the reason for letting Tryion escape (at least in the books). And it just made that the fact he went to the room so dangerous for seemingly nothing! At least if he talked about Tysha then it would make sense for Tyrion to put himself in danger. Also, I didn't like Shae's death. I wanted her to plead for her life like in the books. Would have been way better.

    Didn't really like the episode at all. And had I not seen the book I probably really would have enjoyed it (though I would have brought up the illogicality of Tyrion's decision in the first place.)


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    #40
    hussey
    Registered Users Posts: 6,240 ✭✭✭hussey


    I really don't see how people thought she was going to be in the TV series, I mean she is rarely in the books, how many chapters do we have on LS? 3 (the runaway frey, the ransomed frey & Brianne ), for a TV adaptation I can't see why they would have her come back. Her part can be played (up to book 5) by the brotherhood.

    I thought the fight between the hound & Brianne was excellent and gruesome, Arya was cold as ice leaving him to die.

    I was more disappointed Tyrion didn't find out about his wife from Jamie.

    Great episode and possibly the best season (since 1)


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    #41
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    I'm a partial book reader, but really think a lot of people's judgement is clouded by the way things happened in the books.

    If I was watching it without having read the books, I would have thought Tyrion was off to have his final say with his father, and maybe he thought his father wouldn't stop him from escaping afterwards. Bit of a crazy move, sure, but I don't think he entered that room with the intention of killing his father. To me, it was only discovering Shae and subsequently killing her, that led to him wanting to kill his father.

    I also thought almost nothing was made of the killing of Shae in the books. It seemed to be over and done with so quickly that I had to read it again to make sure that it had actually happened.


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    #42
    Mr Freeze
    Registered Users Posts: 6,618 ✭✭✭Mr Freeze


    Haven't see the episode yet, but I am not one bit surprised that LS was cut, and have said so all season long.

    That said, I am disappointed, its far from one of the best twists in the books, but it would have made for an incredible cliffhanger in the show.

    Plus dead Freys, what's not to like? :pac:


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    #43
    PhlegmyMoses
    Registered Users Posts: 11,906 ✭✭✭✭PhlegmyMoses


    Couldn't really care less about LS at this point in the books, let alone whether she appears now or next season. It's just a sideshow story at the moment. Cool but barely relevant at present.

    Tyrion and Tywin was a bit weak compared to the books but it really is the time constraints letting the show down, and even then, only slightly. If they could have 12/13 episodes a season and a bigger budget it would give them more room to expand on these characters.

    Because of the sheer amount of characters GRRM has put into the books, it is very difficult to include every little thing. People may come back with Grey Worm and Missendei as examples of superfluous content, but such examples are few and far between.

    My biggest worry now is that I need to make a decision on whether to keep watching or wait for the books. There is very little of Bran's story left, for example, and we may fall into Night King territory a lot more next season.


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    #44
    Daith
    Registered Users Posts: 4,941 ✭✭✭Daith


    Not surprised or disappointed bout LS though Arya's comments that her mother was dead was a perfect lead in.

    I'm more disappointed we didn't get Arya howling at a wolf pack but they might be leaving Arya as a warg as a surprise for viewers next season.

    The Tyrion/Tywin scenes felt rushed but. Whatever Tyrion's motivation was (wanted to ask his father why he wanted him dead, showed that he had escaped) would have be triumphed by seeing Shae anyway though.


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    #45
    PhlegmyMoses
    Registered Users Posts: 11,906 ✭✭✭✭PhlegmyMoses


    Basil3 wrote: »
    I'm a partial book reader, but really think a lot of people's judgement is clouded by the way things happened in the books.

    If I was watching it without having read the books, I would have thought Tyrion was off to have his final say with his father, and maybe he thought his father wouldn't stop him from escaping afterwards. Bit of a crazy move, sure, but I don't think he entered that room with the intention of killing his father. To me, it was only discovering Shae and subsequently killing her, that led to him wanting to kill his father.

    I also thought almost nothing was made of the killing of Shae in the books. It seemed to be over and done with so quickly that I had to read it again to make sure that it had actually happened.

    This is the other thing. Shae essentially replaces Tysha as Tyrion's motivation to kill his dad in the TV adaptation. He kills Shae because she betrayed him and to prevent her from raising the alarm.

    He blames Tywin for setting in motion the events that caused him to kill someone he loved.


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    #46
    MacBizzle
    Closed Accounts Posts: 913 ✭✭✭MacBizzle


    There's a good chance LS will be in the first scene next season imo. They had so much to cover this season that the LS reveal would either have been rushed, or other parts would have been cut down to compensate. Like everyone's saying, there's not half as much to work with next season so they might as well wait to reveal LS then to make season five more entertaining.

    That being said, Tywin's death could definitely have been improved on, although I don't think the whole Tysha thing would have made much sense to a non-book reader, she's been mentioned what, twice maybe in the show? The fact that he found Shae in Tywin's bed is good enough reason for me. If I hadn't read the books I wouldn't have much interest in the Tysha storyline, or Rhaeger Targaeryen for that matter. They have to make the show with the TV audience in mind, not just to satisfy the book readers, so imo the decision they made was reasonable enough.

    Without the internal monologue of the books you don't get half as much depth to the characters, so some book readers believe some characters to be shallow because they've already got such insight into their thinking. Watching the show as a non-reader I don't think this would come to the surface and everything would seem grand.

    All our complaints stem from being book-readers is basically what I'm saying. There's very little actually wrong with the show, the books are just so good and detailed that it makes it look like there is.


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    #47
    Daith
    Registered Users Posts: 4,941 ✭✭✭Daith


    MacBizzle wrote: »
    All our complaints stem from being book-readers is basically what I'm saying. There's very little actually wrong with the show, the books are just so good and detailed that it makes it look like there is.

    Exactly. Really baffled at the "Why did Tyrion want to find his father. Yes I know his father tried to kill him but that's not proper motivation is it?"


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    #48
    Liam O
    Registered Users Posts: 19,082 ✭✭✭✭Liam O


    Daith wrote: »
    Exactly. Really baffled at the "Why did Tyrion want to find his father. Yes I know his father tried to kill him but that's not proper motivation is it?"

    Not at that moment, he was resigned to death one minute and freed, suddenly thinks "oh I'll risk all that Jaime has done to free me for revenge against Daddy". It's purely illogical. Then the whole scene just lacked the proper emotion. Tyrion breaking down after Shae's death goes completely against the empty pure anger he should be feeling at that stage and Dinklage is capable of better emotion than in the final scene with Tywin.

    As for LS not being in the books much, neither was Robb Stark, didn't stop the whole 2nd season being pretty much based around him. Oberyn was in 3 chapters if I remember correctly too.


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    #49
    Daith
    Registered Users Posts: 4,941 ✭✭✭Daith


    Liam O wrote: »
    Not at that moment, he was resigned to death one minute and freed, suddenly thinks "oh I'll risk all that Jaime has done to free me for revenge against Daddy". It's purely illogical.

    Except it's not is it? We don't know he went there for revenge. He only picked up a weapon after killing Shae.

    He had motivation for wanting to see his father. When he saw Shae then it went to revenge and anger.


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    #50
    Nody
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 18,271 CMod ✭✭✭✭Nody


    PhlegmyMoses wrote: »
    This is the other thing. Shae essentially replaces Tysha as Tyrion's motivation to kill his dad in the TV adaptation. He kills Shae because she betrayed him and to prevent her from raising the alarm.
    Which is very weak as Shae had plenty of time to call out during the fight but did not (which irked me greatly; she had nothing to lose yet stayed quiet the whole time...).


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    #51
    Witcher
    Registered Users Posts: 14,562 ✭✭✭✭Witcher


    Non reader thread is infinitely more interesting than this one as usual.


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    #52
    Liam O
    Registered Users Posts: 19,082 ✭✭✭✭Liam O


    Daith wrote: »
    Except it's not is it? We don't know he went there for revenge. He only picked up a weapon after killing Shae.

    He had motivation for wanting to see his father. When he saw Shae then it went to revenge and anger.

    His father is much bigger and stronger than him. Tyrion is smart, he's not going to take the risk of going there if not clouded by anger imo. Convenient he knew the way too without Varys help.


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    #53
    Liam O
    Registered Users Posts: 19,082 ✭✭✭✭Liam O


    Blay wrote: »
    Non reader thread is infinitely more interesting than this one as usual.

    Nobody cares.


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    #54
    MacBizzle
    Closed Accounts Posts: 913 ✭✭✭MacBizzle


    Liam O wrote: »
    Not at that moment, he was resigned to death one minute and freed, suddenly thinks "oh I'll risk all that Jaime has done to free me for revenge against Daddy". It's purely illogical

    He still risked all Jaime had done for him in the books when he went to get "revenge against Daddy", just that there were different circumstances, which still makes it an illogical act going by your reasoning.

    Tyrion's life had been essentially ruined by Tywin; he got no recognition for all the hard work he'd done in King's Landing, is accused of killing his nephew even though he didn't kill him, and the his father goes and sentences him to death even though he knew Tyrion was innocent. Plenty of reason for him to kill him going by that.


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    #55
    Witcher
    Registered Users Posts: 14,562 ✭✭✭✭Witcher


    Liam O wrote: »
    Nobody cares.

    Aw say it ain't so Liam O?:pac:

    I suppose here is still better, I'd miss you moaning about every scene of every episode if I went over there:pac:


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    #56
    Daith
    Registered Users Posts: 4,941 ✭✭✭Daith


    Liam O wrote: »
    His father is much bigger and stronger than him. Tyrion is smart, he's not going to take the risk of going there if not clouded by anger imo. Convenient he knew the way too without Varys help.

    So he was clouded by anger because his father wanted him dead even though he knew Tyrion was innocent. Is Tyrion not allowed to be illogical?

    And yes Tyrion probably does know his way around Kings Landing and buildings?


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    #57
    OneOfThem Stumbled
    Registered Users Posts: 934 ✭✭✭OneOfThem Stumbled


    Daith wrote: »
    So he was clouded by anger because his father wanted him dead even though he knew Tyrion was innocent. Is Tyrion not allowed to be illogical?

    And yes Tyrion probably does know his way around Kings Landing and buildings?

    I hate to be the stereotypical reader but... the Jamie-Tyrion-Tywin finale just sucked imo. Did I miss a scene? Is the first we see of Tyrion, Jamie turning up at the cell having murdered two guards? Security on the black cells seems pretty lax these days... and hell, the black cells are looking a lot better than when Eddard was there.

    Just don't buy how Tyrion would be angry enough in this scene. With his... first wife... cannot remember her name... there was the implication that Tywin had fked Tyrion's life up; that his whoring and drinking from Dorne to the Wall was largely a consequence of this big lie, and the lie was created by Tywin "for the sake of the family".


    Instead Tyrion seems to kill him because Tywin never loved him (as if that was any kind of revelation). Why not kill Tywin when he risked Tyrion's life against the forces of Roose Bolton and forbade him from bringing any whores to the capital? T'would make as much sense.

    Other than that the episode had its highs (STANNIS!) and lows (Fancy a Stark, who announced to the world that they were a Stark, just walking away from the Bloody Gate).

    Also lightning chucking children of the forest... :pac:


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    #58
    Daith
    Registered Users Posts: 4,941 ✭✭✭Daith


    OneOfThem Stumbled wrote: »
    Instead Tyrion seems to kill him because Tywin never loved him (as if that was any kind of revelation).

    Nope not at all.
    OneOfThem Stumbled wrote: »
    Just don't buy how Tyrion would be angry enough in this scene.

    Right his dad tried to kill him even though he knew Tyrion was innocent then his Dad was shagging his girl. Then Tyrion killed that girl. Nope, we def needed another backstory about another whore.
    OneOfThem Stumbled wrote: »

    Also lightning chucking children of the forest... :pac:

    Didn't the Children of The Forest break the arm of Dorne or something? It's not like we haven't seen magic in the show before.


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    #59
    Mr.Prodston
    Registered Users Posts: 16,305 ✭✭✭✭Mr.Prodston


    Blay wrote: »
    Non reader thread is infinitely more interesting than this one as usual.

    I apologise, let Disco Snow entertain you:

    jon-snow-dancing-gif.gif


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    #60
    OneOfThem Stumbled
    Registered Users Posts: 934 ✭✭✭OneOfThem Stumbled


    Daith wrote: »
    Nope not at all.

    Tyrion always knew it - he had said as much a number of times.

    Daith wrote: »
    Right his dad tried to kill him even though he knew Tyrion was innocent then his Dad was shagging his girl. Then Tyrion killed that girl. Nope, we def needed another backstory about another whore.

    But we already got the backstory



    So... what's the point?

    I mean, Shay's emotions for Tyrion were a lot more complicated than her just being a "lying whore" to quote Tyrion, but he wasn't to know that.
    Daith wrote: »
    Didn't the Children of The Forest break the arm of Dorne or something? It's not like we haven't seen magic in the show before.

    Yeah, but always with a bit more subtlety.

    Also, what's with all the wraiths outside the three eyed raven's home? This is the same in the books afaik, but you'd think someone would have got rid of them at some stage. :D


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    #61
    Daith
    Registered Users Posts: 4,941 ✭✭✭Daith


    OneOfThem Stumbled wrote: »
    Yeah, but always with a bit more subtlety.

    What? Has that scene being depicted in the books?


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