The unfolding story in Tuam

Dan_Solo · 07-06-2014 6:04pm

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

Because you specifically stated

I specifically stated the Gardai would be impacted if the Gardai were found to have been negligent.
This thread is about the Gardai's response to the Tuam babies.
Once more, please show me where I said the Gardai would or should be singled out.
Hint: saying something does not imply or mean you mean only that thing.

Resonator75 · 07-06-2014 6:04pm

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Do the Gardai ever need to actually investigate anything or do they all just decide immediately whether there's evidence of criminal activity or not like you are demanding here?

Thanks Dan, thats it in a Nutshell.

It has been decided that there is nothing to see here.

No crime has been committed.

Conclusion reached without a jot of investigation.

That is not good enough from a modern day police force.

ezra_pound · 07-06-2014 6:08pm

mikom wrote: »

Cross Ward............ a lot of Cross wards in Tuam.

Try not to think so linear, Phoebas.

A cryptic cross ward!

Dan_Solo · 07-06-2014 6:11pm

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

If you want to play word games I suggest you try After Hours.

You think

public perception of the Gardai?

is a "word game"? Are you having trouble deciphering that phrase?

lazybones32 · 07-06-2014 6:20pm

My name is URL wrote: »

I have a few questions about how things are being done.

How come Gardai aren't doing any sort of investigation?

Why in the name of feck, is a potentially huge crime-scene not being secured by Gardai?

If they can't launch an investigation at present then fine, but it is still a potential crime scene, right? What happens if potential evidence is interfered with?

There are reports on RTE that a private firm have been drafted in by the Irish Daily Mail to do a radar examination

The world's media are in Tuam and there's not a Garda to be seen around the site. It's bizarre. Surely they could at least secure the area until a decision is made on whether or not an investigation is launched?

1: There is no evidence of a crime having being committed. The 796 figure is the total number of deaths or something. There is no evidence whatsoever, that the Nuns killed anyone there. The medical and death records of everyone there, have been in the possession of the Govt. since the venues closure in the 60's.

2: The word "dumped" is a Media add-on. C Corless never used that word, but the Media have used it to describe the burial practice. As yet, I don't know if they septic tank was being used as a septic tank when the bodies were interred in it.

Resonator75 · 07-06-2014 6:24pm

lazybones32 wrote: »

1: There is no evidence of a crime having being committed. The 796 figure is the total number of deaths or something. There is no evidence whatsoever, that the Nuns killed anyone there. The medical and death records of everyone there, have been in the possession of the Govt. since the venues closure in the 60's.

2: The word "dumped" is a Media add-on. C Corless never used that word, but the Media have used it to describe the burial practice. As yet, I don't know if they septic tank was being used as a septic tank when the bodies were interred in it.

Nothing to see, move on, your imagining it all then is it?

Little CuChulainn · 07-06-2014 6:29pm

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Do the Gardai ever need to actually investigate anything or do they all just decide immediately whether there's evidence of criminal activity or not like you are demanding here?

If something is reported to the Gardaí the first thing to decide is whether there is any crime to investigate. As resonator said, that's policing 101. If there is no indication of a crime then there is no investigation.

Dan_Solo · 07-06-2014 6:29pm

lazybones32 wrote: »

1: There is no evidence of a crime having being committed. The 796 figure is the total number of deaths or something. There is no evidence whatsoever, that the Nuns killed anyone there. The medical and death records of everyone there, have been in the possession of the Govt. since the venues closure in the 60's.

So you know there is no evidence before there has been an investigation...
So once more, if the Gardai find bodies in unmarked graves there is never a need for an investigation?

Little CuChulainn · 07-06-2014 6:30pm

Dan_Solo wrote: »

So you know there is no evidence before there has been an investigation...
So once more, if the Gardai find bodies in unmarked graves there is never a need for an investigation?

More word games. Perhaps you would like to just have a conversation with yourself if you insist on putting words in everyones mouth.

lazybones32 · 07-06-2014 6:30pm

Resonator75 wrote: »

Thanks Dan, thats it in a Nutshell.

It has been decided that there is nothing to see here.

No crime has been committed.

Conclusion reached without a jot of investigation.

That is not good enough from a modern day police force.

Which would be the better thing to do:
Review records in possession of the State, to see if willful neglect, maltreatment, manslaughter or murder has occurred?

or

Excavate a site with an indeterminate number of skeletal remains, which will mean lots of man hours; the sorting, enumerating, recording and identification of each individual. Testing those remains to determine which era they expired in and then having to re-inter them. And the possibility of doing this for every site across the Nation.

Which do you think is the best approach?

Dan_Solo · 07-06-2014 6:36pm

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

More word games. Perhaps you would like to just have a conversation with yourself if you insist on putting words in everyones mouth.

Every time you are incapable of answering a question, does the phrase "WORD GAMES" spring to mind instantly as some sort of useful response?

Dan_Solo · 07-06-2014 6:38pm

lazybones32 wrote: »

Which would be the better thing to do:
Review records in possession of the State, to see if willful neglect, maltreatment, manslaughter or murder has occurred?

or

Excavate a site with an indeterminate number of skeletal remains, which will mean lots of man hours; the sorting, enumerating, recording and identification of each individual. Testing those remains to determine which era they expired in and then having to re-inter them. And the possibility of doing this for every site across the Nation.

Which do you think is the best approach?

Have EITHER of these been done?
Is there not even the slightest possibility that government records are incorrect when the relevant babies end up in sewers?

Little CuChulainn · 07-06-2014 6:42pm

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Every time you are incapable of answering a question, does the phrase "WORD GAMES" spring to mind instantly as some sort of useful response?

Do you always make statements into questions to try ant attribute them to others?

Dan_Solo · 07-06-2014 6:47pm

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

Do you always make statements into questions to try ant attribute them to others?

Do you always just make stuff up?
Can you answer or not, where did I "single out" the Gardai by mentioning them in a thread about the Gardai?
Is this another "word game"?

mufflets2 · 07-06-2014 11:15pm

No one can possibly know if every single dead baby in the unmarked mass grave
is correctly and legal reflected in the "death certificates" presented by the people who saw fit to dump them in a ceptic tank.

No one can possibly know that there is no evidence of miss-treatment of these infants without examining bodies (especially considering what we now know about how single mothers, orphans ect were treated at the time).

Someone who would dump baby bodies in a Ceptic tank should not be trusted if they said that the sky were blue , in my opinion

This is beyond ridiculous and smacks of collusion and cover up by both guarda and church

roadsmart · 08-06-2014 12:05am

IMO this is a matter for investigation by the Dept of Health and children, and if evidence of criminality is uncovered or suspected by that investigation then it should be passed to the relevant authority, ie the Guards. I don't see any post here saying there shouldn't be an investigation, but I do see a lot of emotionally and badly thought out posts.

Dan_Solo · 08-06-2014 12:40am

roadsmart wrote: »

I don't see any post here saying there shouldn't be an investigation, but I do see a lot of emotionally and badly thought out posts.

Yes, when it comes to trying to defend An Garda Siochana that does tend to happen.

roadsmart · 08-06-2014 12:42am

I can assure you I have no reason to defend anyone mentioned in this thread, but don't let that stop your musings.

lazybones32 · 08-06-2014 8:45am

Resonator75 wrote: »

Nothing to see, move on, your imagining it all then is it?

Did I write that? No.

I wrote - and feel free to correct me if you have evidence that proves otherwise - that there is no valid reason to suspect that the nuns killed people in their care. The Medical records have been in the possession of the State since the Institution closed down. RTE News showed some of these records on the 6 o clock News last week and using the "pause" function on the Sky box, it was possible to read a lot of information on the actual records, regarding the health of the children.
Regarding the burial method; I will wait for more information.

lazybones32 · 08-06-2014 8:55am

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Have EITHER of these been done?
Is there not even the slightest possibility that government records are incorrect when the relevant babies end up in sewers?

Oh my!....I gave those options -not as standard procedures - but as a means to make you think as to which would be the best method of approach.

I'll simplify: it's cheaper and more efficient to review the records first, to see if there is anything out of the ordinary instead of spending truckloads of Public money on excavating a burial ground, testing every skeleton, cataloging every bone and then reburying every bone after finding that the people died of pretty much what their medical record says they died from. Do you understand?

Now, the method of burial is unpleasant and a better location could have been found, but I await the reasoning that will be offered

lazybones32 · 08-06-2014 9:08am

Dan_Solo wrote: »

So you know there is no evidence before there has been an investigation...
So once more, if the Gardai find bodies in unmarked graves there is never a need for an investigation?

The shoe is on the other foot now?

Based on the available evidence (and there is enough of it out there), there is nothing to immediately suspect foul-play.

Unmarked mass graves mean nothing: there are two, relatively close to my house: a paupers grave and a Famine grave.
A grave in the grounds of a Hospital/Abandoned Children Home isn't very surprising- Ireland was a third-World Country then and it is hard now, to imagine the Poverty that existed then. Medical care was available but the money wasn't.
The Sisters kept records of what happened and when someone died in there, it was recorded and they were 'buried'.

michael999999 · 08-06-2014 9:19am

lazybones32 wrote: »

The shoe is on the other foot now?

Based on the available evidence (and there is enough of it out there), there is nothing to immediately suspect foul-play.

Unmarked mass graves mean nothing: there are two, relatively close to my house: a paupers grave and a Famine grave.
A grave in the grounds of a Hospital/Abandoned Children Home isn't very surprising- Ireland was a third-World Country then and it is hard now, to imagine the Poverty that existed then. Medical care was available but the money wasn't.
The Sisters kept records of what happened and when someone died in there, it was recorded and they were 'buried'.

Bull****. The nuns were paid to look after them kids!

They weren't doing it as a vocation, the evil B*****s!

lazybones32 · 08-06-2014 9:27am

michael999999 wrote: »

Bull****. The nuns were paid to look after them kids!

They weren't doing it as a vocation, the evil B*****s!

Look after them with what? Water and bread?
There was as much money available for them as there was love.

Dan_Solo · 08-06-2014 9:36am

lazybones32 wrote: »

Look after them with what? Water and bread?
There was as much money available for them as there was love.

The nuns received £26 for each mother and £26 for each baby. Add that to the money the church was earning for the mother's slave labour and there was a fair bit of money available.
Shows you how much you know about this "case" doesn't it that you've already pronounced entirely above board.

drumswan · 08-06-2014 12:06pm

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

Has anyone denied they are there? What particular aspect do you think requires Garda investigation? What evidential value could there be in sealing off the area and digging up the bodies?

The illegal disposal of bodies is a crime.

This article appears to suggest the Garda are looking again at the issue, its from last Thursday though.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/garda%C3%AD-examining-whether-crimes-committed-at-tuam-site-1.1822114

lazybones32 · 08-06-2014 12:15pm

Dan_Solo wrote: »

The nuns received £26 for each mother and £26 for each baby. Add that to the money the church was earning for the mother's slave labour and there was a fair bit of money available.
Shows you how much you know about this "case" doesn't it that you've already pronounced entirely above board.

I know little about the conditions, operations and actions of what transpired in Tuam. That is why I'm remaining open-minded, rather than immediately assuming evil motives and mass-murder of 800 people.
What I do know has led me to believe that this won't turn out to be as horrific as some people secretly hope.

Resonator75 · 08-06-2014 12:18pm

Archbishop Diarmuid Martin just said the first thing that needs to happen is a judicial investigation.

So the Garda stand on their own in their refusal to accept this.

Dan_Solo · 08-06-2014 12:22pm

lazybones32 wrote: »

I know little about the conditions, operations and actions of what transpired in Tuam.

You just told us you did and there was no need for an investigation.
We did notice that you know...

lazybones32 · 08-06-2014 12:31pm

mufflets2 wrote: »

Someone who would dump baby bodies in a Ceptic tank should not be trusted if they said that the sky were blue , in my opinion

Today's Independent quotes "locals believe they were dumped beside a septic tank over the years"
1: Beside a septic tank and in a septic tank are two very different things. Everyone has been furious - and rightly so - about children/people being thrown into a septic tank, but this has been shown to be false journalism.
2: The word "dumped" is another emotive term used by a Media that has already been shown to be partial and deliberately misleading and inaccurate.

Yet, this language and loose reporting has had free-reign for nearly two weeks now and no-one seeks to retract?

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/baby-deaths-now-gardai-probe-the-tuam-mass-grave-30337463.html

drumswan · 08-06-2014 12:51pm

lazybones32 wrote: »

Beside a septic tank and in a septic tank are two very different things.

Except both are illegal. So kind of the same.

Resonator75 · 08-06-2014 12:55pm

The amount of hair splitting, semantics and word play on show in this thread by some is quite something to behold.

Anything to avoid and detract.

drumswan · 08-06-2014 1:00pm

Theres other threads for debating the wider issues of this case.

This is the Emergency Services forum, can we leave it to people who might have some actual knowledge of how these things work to explain why there is no apparent investigation of the site.

My name is URL · 08-06-2014 1:11pm

Looks like things are happening at last

TWO senior gardai are to conduct a "fact-finding" mission into the deaths of 796 babies believed to be buried in a mass grave in Tuam, the Sunday Independent has learned.

They have been asked to gather all surviving records, including death certificates and the ledgers kept by the mother and baby home until it closed in 1961. Crucially, the officers are also expected to carry out preliminary tests on the site of the suspected mass grave, which lies on the edge of a housing estate in the Galway town.

Resonator75 · 08-06-2014 1:15pm

My name is URL wrote: »

Looks like things are happening at last

Now watch the sudden disappearance / silence from certain posters on this thread....

lazybones32 · 08-06-2014 1:33pm

drumswan wrote: »

Except both are illegal. So kind of the same.

I admit I'm not up to date on regulations regarding burial but am I correct in thinking your anger about this is that the children died and were illegally buried?
I seem to recall many people explicitly referring to "being dumped in a septic tank" as the horrifying aspect of this situation, but it was the illegal burying all along...

lazybones32 · 08-06-2014 1:36pm

Resonator75 wrote: »

The amount of hair splitting, semantics and word play on show in this thread by some is quite something to behold.

Anything to avoid and detract.

Is this directed towards me?

Burying beside a septic tank and dumping in a septic tank is "wordplay"? Whatever School taught you failed (The RCC is to blame again!)

Little CuChulainn · 08-06-2014 1:38pm

Resonator75 wrote: »

Now watch the sudden disappearance / silence from certain posters on this thread....

You realise nothing has changed? They are merely complying with a request by the Minister for Justice. And as you and Dan have proven, it's all about the perception. Nothing of value will be accomplished but at least it makes you feel better.

Dan_Solo · 08-06-2014 1:44pm

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

You realise nothing has changed? They are merely complying with a request by the Minister for Justice. And as you and Dan have proven, it's all about the perception. Nothing of value will be accomplished but at least it makes you feel better.

Wow, you could just tell them you have completed the investigation in your head so there's no need for any other Gardai to bother actually visiting the site.

My name is URL · 08-06-2014 1:47pm

Little CuChulainn wrote: »

You realise nothing has changed? They are merely complying with a request by the Minister for Justice. And as you and Dan have proven, it's all about the perception. Nothing of value will be accomplished but at least it makes you feel better.

You almost sound as if you want 'nothing of value' to be accomplished.

You're right that they are only following orders from the minister, and hopefully people will continue to point out that the minister herself has known about this since 2011, and until the other day completely ignored it. She, as Children's Minister could have at any stage demanded that an inquiry be set up, which would have saved a lot of the embarrassment they, gardai and the country as a whole are now facing.

I think people have had enough, if public pressure is what it takes to have things investigated and addressed then long may that pressure continue.

lazybones32 · 08-06-2014 1:50pm

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Wow, you could just tell them you have completed the investigation in your head so there's no need for any other Gardai to bother actually visiting the site.

This is funny! And by funny, I mean pathetic.

24-48 hours ago, cooler heads were advising people to wait until an investigation was concluded before drawing conclusions.
Now those people are being treated as if they are trying to prevent it.

Dogs chasing tails...first, one direction, then the other.

Little CuChulainn · 08-06-2014 2:30pm

My name is URL wrote: »

You almost sound as if you want 'nothing of value' to be accomplished.

I'm pretty sure that I've said a large number of times that I would like it investigated more thoroughly as a non-criminal matter. But if you have some need to paint people who disagree with you as a bad guy then fill your boots.

My name is URL wrote: »

You're right that they are only following orders from the minister, and hopefully people will continue to point out that the minister herself has known about this since 2011, and until the other day completely ignored it. She, as Children's Minister could have at any stage demanded that an inquiry be set up, which would have saved a lot of the embarrassment they, gardai and the country as a whole are now facing.

I think people have had enough, if public pressure is what it takes to have things investigated and addressed then long may that pressure continue.

But this is merely lip service. Do you want a proper investigation or do you want things to look good in front of the world media? No Garda investigation will accomplish what people want. This isn't a prediction, it's just an inevitable outcome of our particular justice system.

lazybones32 · 08-06-2014 2:31pm

Dan_Solo wrote: »

You just told us you did and there was no need for an investigation.
We did notice that you know...

Citation demanded as to where I said no investigation was needed.
I have been advocating a cool and controlled response until the inquiry gives ALL facts, yet it is you and your ilk who are demanding blood before knowing anything beyond what the papers tell you.

Dan_Solo · 08-06-2014 3:13pm

lazybones32 wrote: »

1: There is no evidence of a crime having being committed. The 796 figure is the total number of deaths or something. There is no evidence whatsoever, that the Nuns killed anyone there. The medical and death records of everyone there, have been in the possession of the Govt. since the venues closure in the 60's.

DEMANDED. LOL. Used to making demands by any chance? Funny and pathetic.
So, you were just exhaustively listing "reasons" why there shouldn't be an investigation into this case (it turned out you didn't know the first thing about it either) but you weren't saying at all there shouldn't be an investigation?
Shure.

Resonator75 · 08-06-2014 3:28pm

lazybones32 wrote: »

Citation demanded as to where I said no investigation was needed.
I have been advocating a cool and controlled response until the inquiry gives ALL facts, yet it is you and your ilk who are demanding blood before knowing anything beyond what the papers tell you.

Ehh, stop with that straw man, no one here is demanding blood.

We are demanding an investigation by our police force so the facts can be assessed and if it appears criminal acts have been carried out the the appropriate action can be taken.

If this situation is investigated and no evidence of wrong doing is found, so be it.

I think we both agree this should happen?

Dan_Solo · 08-06-2014 3:33pm

Resonator75 wrote: »

I think we both agree this should happen?

Apparently he agrees but just likes making up reasons why there shouldn't be an investigation.
Go figure.

lazybones32 · 08-06-2014 3:42pm

Dan_Solo wrote: »

DEMANDED. LOL. Used to making demands by any chance? Funny and pathetic.
So, you were just exhaustively listing "reasons" why there shouldn't be an investigation into this case (it turned out you didn't know the first thing about it either) but you weren't saying at all there shouldn't be an investigation?
Shure.

You still haven't provided where I said an investigation should not be carried out. Why not? Simply because I never said so.

The theme on this thread is that the nuns are responsible for every death in that Institution. I countered with the FACT that all medical records are in possession of the State and should be first reviewed to see if there are anomalies, rather than sending in diggers to unearth every skeletal remains as a first solution. My comments are still visible and will be until removed.
I think first, rather than letting my emotions guide and rule my response (I apologise if this is interpreted as a personal insult...I am speaking of myself) and I reached my conclusions after seeing some of the Medical Records of the Children from Tuam on the RTE News.

lazybones32 · 08-06-2014 3:52pm

Resonator75 wrote: »

Ehh, stop with that straw man, no one here is demanding blood.

We are demanding an investigation by our police force so the facts can be assessed and if it appears criminal acts have been carried out the the appropriate action can be taken.

If this situation is investigated and no evidence of wrong doing is found, so be it.

I think we both agree this should happen?

I am not a liar and do not take kindly to being called one - explicitly or implicitly.
Nowhere in my posts will anyone find me typing that an investigation is not needed. What I did write was that there was no evidence of a crime being committed: seeing as burying bodies outside of designated areas is a crime, I stand corrected on this issue.

lazybones32 · 08-06-2014 4:01pm

Dan_Solo wrote: »

Apparently he agrees but just likes making up reasons why there shouldn't be an investigation.
Go figure.

Aside from the illegal burial/disposal of human remains, what criminal activity has occurred? The Medical records so far don't hint to foul-play.
If you return to page 1 of this Thread, the OP asked why there wasn't an investigation carried out by the Gardai. I gave my answer but you have somehow understood this as me attempting to prevent an Investigation.

Don't try blame me because you can't understand what I write.

Little CuChulainn · 08-06-2014 4:01pm

lazybones32 wrote: »

I am not a liar and do not take kindly to being called one - explicitly or implicitly.
Nowhere in my posts will anyone find me typing that an investigation is not needed. What I did write was that there was no evidence of a crime being committed: seeing as burying bodies outside of designated areas is a crime, I stand corrected on this issue.

I could be wrong but I think there's a statute of limitations of 6 months on that.

barney4001 · 08-06-2014 4:04pm

i have been reading up on this matter from it first broke out, and this whole thing about Tuam, I am inclined to think that its bordering on genocide by trying to wipe those unwanted babies of the face of the earth, and probably their mothers as well,deeming them as unworthy for their idea of society.
How many other mother and baby homes were there in Ireland,and do not forget the industrial schools also with all the sad stories that came from those places ,like Lettrefrack Artane etc

what is genocide? It is the mass murder or killing of a group of people. The reasons are usually because of ethnic or religious or gender based. Women, children, men and young boys are all killed.

The unfolding story in Tuam

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