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Mass unmarked grave for 800 babies in Tuam

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    #812
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    mezuzaj wrote: »
    Do you think people who asked for Charity were treated better that society who didn't ask for charity? If there was malnutrition in society at large as there was do you think people would get a better life in an institution.

    The institutions that started in the early 1900's are a take over from the workhouses, places of last resort.

    None of this was right. Of course it was hypocrisy of some who lorded over others, but it was seen as setting an example to society... don't get pregnant or else. That was the way society was, Catholic or Protestant. Back in the first half of the last century it was all about work, you worked all the time, work was the way you survived.
    Are you simply ignoring my posts explaining how these homes were run? (and importantly funded)

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=90687662&postcount=790

    The people in these homes were perhaps poor before entering.

    However, when they entered the homes, the State paid The Home for their care (and well).
    The Homes were provided with more than the Average National Wage per mother.

    This means that any mortality rate differences compared to the National Average cannot be explained by 'poverty'.

    Especially, especially, especially not a 4x higher than National Average!


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    #813
    Flippyfloppy
    Registered Users Posts: 3,748 ✭✭✭Flippyfloppy


    mezuzaj wrote: »
    Do you think people who asked for Charity were treated better that society who didn't ask for charity? If there was malnutrition in society at large as there was do you think people would get a better life in an institution.

    The institutions that started in the early 1900's are a take over from the workhouses, places of last resort.

    None of this was right. Of course it was hypocrisy of some who lorded over others, but it was seen as setting an example to society... don't get pregnant or else. That was the way society was, Catholic or Protestant. Back in the first half of the last century it was all about work, you worked all the time, work was the way you survived.


    And?


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    #814
    SpaceTime
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,088 ✭✭✭SpaceTime


    It's not easy to report an institution to the authorities when the authorities WERE the same institutions.

    Every aspect of health, education and social services here at that time was absolutely part of the religious institutions.


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    #815
    carpejugulum
    Registered Users Posts: 523 ✭✭✭carpejugulum


    And the same abhorrent excuse again.

    Fintan Monaghan, secretary of the Tuam archediocese: "I suppose we can't really judge the past from our point of view, from our lens"


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    #816
    Corkfeen
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,940 ✭✭✭Corkfeen


    mezuzaj wrote: »
    Do you think people who asked for Charity were treated better that society who didn't ask for charity? If there was malnutrition in society at large as there was do you think people would get a better life in an institution.

    The institutions that started in the early 1900's are a take over from the workhouses, places of last resort.

    None of this was right. Of course it was hypocrisy of some who lorded over others, but it was seen as setting an example to society... don't get pregnant or else. That was the way society was, Catholic or Protestant. Back in the first half of the last century it was all about work, you worked all the time, work was the way you survived.

    This was addressed by Emmet and Bann. The mortality rates look all the more suspect because of the fact they are massively elevated.


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    #817
    barney4001
    Registered Users Posts: 1,447 ✭✭✭barney4001


    would arch bishop mcquaide have been around at that time,i am sure he would have been


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    #818
    byhookorbycrook
    Moderators, Education Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 12,483 Mod ✭✭✭✭byhookorbycrook


    My mother won a "scholarship" to secondary school in the 30s. The treatment meted out to pupils in the school was nothing short of horrendous. And this was for "good" girls!


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    #819
    SpaceTime
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,088 ✭✭✭SpaceTime


    byhookorbycrook wrote: »
    My mother won a "scholarship" to secondary school in the 30s. The treatment meted out to pupils in the school was nothing short of horrendous. And this was for "good" girls!

    Same story for relatives of mine including horrendous beatings and a medical diagnosis of malnutrition and this was a scholarship to a very high-acheiving school in the late 60s.
    carpejugulum wrote: »
    And the same abhorrent excuse again.

    Fintan Monaghan, secretary of the Tuam archediocese: "I suppose we can't really judge the past from our point of view, from our lens"

    Of course we can judge it. It was the supposedly swinging 1960s! Not the 1640s.


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    #820
    Karl Stein
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,689 ✭✭✭Karl Stein


    nagirrac wrote: »
    We need imo to accept collective responsibility for these atrocities. Although those in positions of authority should be subject to the harshest criticism, the reality is that the culture of the time believed the best solution for society was to banish "fallen" women to internment camps.

    I agree.
    IMO there is far too much deflecting of the blame onto the "bad apples" going on, some of it on this thread from those who lay all the blame at the feet of the RCC,

    This is what interests me. It seems to me that our focussing only on the RCC (as if it were some sort of malevolent entity not of man's creation) is a little too convenient and serves the purpose of distancing ourselves, or our fore-bearers, from the degeneracy that took place. Which one of us is going to ask our Parents, or Grandparents, how they allowed a society like that to recreate itself decade-after-decade? Afaia at one point we had one of the largest incarcerated populations per capita in the world when you include industrial 'schools', laundries and mental health 'hospitals'.


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    #821
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    mezuzaj wrote: »
    How may children in Ireland died from Malnutrition, you would think the Catholic Church invented it.. That was what Irish society was like.

    People fail to remember that in the 40's food was rationed in Ireland!!!! There were poor children everywhere.


    Yet they managed to die at four times the rate in these homes.


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    #822
    nagirrac
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,019 ✭✭✭nagirrac


    Karl Stein wrote: »
    This is what interests me. It seems to me that our focussing only on the RCC (as if it were some sort of malevolent entity not of man's creation) is a little too convenient and serves the purpose of distancing ourselves, or our fore-bearers, from the degeneracy that took place. Which one of us is going to ask our Parents, or Grandparents, how they allowed a society like that to recreate itself decade-after-decade? Afaia at one point we had one of the largest incarcerated populations per capita in the world when you include industrial 'schools', laundries and mental health 'hospitals'.

    It interests me as well. I think I know the answer but would prefer not to dwell on it. It is easy to talk the talk living in a relatively prosperous society, the question is what would we have done ourselves if we were living in Ireland of the 1940s with the culture, information flow and influences of the time. I'm sure we would all like to think we would have been defending those that society wanted put out of sight, but I think it's wishful thinking.


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    #823
    eyescreamcone
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,562 ✭✭✭eyescreamcone


    How many children died under Herod's watch??

    Suffer little children, for theirs is the kingdom of blah fcknn blah

    Horrible horrible evil cult!!!


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    #824
    porsche959
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,499 ✭✭✭porsche959


    Lauren Laverne (BBC music presenter) just tweeted the petition to 311k followers. Seems to be getting traction.


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    #825
    Bannasidhe
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 19,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    nagirrac wrote: »
    It interests me as well. I think I know the answer but would prefer not to dwell on it. It is easy to talk the talk living in a relatively prosperous society, the question is what would we have done ourselves if we were living in Ireland of the 1940s with the culture, information flow and influences of the time. I'm sure we would all like to think we would have been defending those that society wanted put out of sight, but I think it's wishful thinking.

    Here's the thing.

    It is changing and it's changing because people did speak up.

    Mary Raftery spoke up.
    Nell McCafferty spoke up.
    Christine Buckley spoke up.


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    #826
    Spring Onion
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,087 ✭✭✭Spring Onion


    barney4001 wrote: »
    would arch bishop mcquaide have been around at that time,i am sure he would have been

    Tuam has it's own Archbishop. It happened under the noses of two of them.

    Thomas Gilmarton (1918-1939)
    Joseph Walsh (1940-1969)


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    #827
    PopePalpatine
    Registered Users Posts: 11,849 ✭✭✭✭PopePalpatine


    mezuzaj wrote: »
    Exactly!!! society was not very welcoming for women who became pregnant.. There was no lone parents allowance, or social house, or dole payment.

    A lot of finger pointing at the Catholic Church, yet nobody campaigned on behalf of these women in the 30's. Society did not want unmarried women, be it Irish society or British or Germany society.

    Look are Hart Island in New York and their mass unmarked graves of children.

    in 1930's or 40's Ireland there was not a lot of money.

    I am not here to justify what was done, it was wrong by our standards, but people need to sit themselves in the shoes of the day and see society as it was on a whole.

    And who was it who set the rules for these societies? Why did families see fit to send their "fallen" daughters to these institutions? I can tell you this much, the inmates of Magdalene Laundries weren't there because their parents were listening to the Chief Rabbi of Ireland.


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    #828
    iguana
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 12,915 Mod ✭✭✭✭iguana


    porsche959 wrote: »
    Lauren Laverne (BBC music presenter) just tweeted the petition to 311k followers. Seems to be getting traction.

    I think that's having an effect, the rate of signatures coming in has just sped up and a huge amount are British. I'm not on twitter, can people who are, and follow any celebrities who might be sympathetic, ask them to retweet the petition? I'm going to up the target to 50k - it might be reaching but this is going well, so it's not impossible.

    I didn't get to send out the petition today due to a family funeral but will work up a plan tomorrow. I'm off now to badger my husband into contacting the celebrities he follows on twitter.

    ETA; a hundred signatures came in while I wrote this post. Just one celebrity tweet has made a huge impact.


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    #829
    GCU Flexible Demeanour
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,257 ✭✭✭GCU Flexible Demeanour


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    It is changing and it's changing because people did speak up.
    Normally, change has a more materialist basis. The power of the Church is collapsing because people who matter no longer need it to protect their status and property.


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    #830
    nagirrac
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,019 ✭✭✭nagirrac


    Bannasidhe wrote: »

    It is changing and it's changing because people did speak up.

    Mary Raftery spoke up.
    Nell McCafferty spoke up.
    Christine Buckley spoke up.

    True, all brave women who fought injustice over the years. Given their selfless bravery, I would imagine they would have been just as active if they were around in the 1940s. The problem is they would likely have been sent to laundries at a young age themselves and thus effectively silenced. Speaking of which, I wouldn't like to have been the ones trying to bring Nell to the laundry :)


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    #831
    Spring Onion
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,087 ✭✭✭Spring Onion


    Weirdly this story was covered in the Connacht Tribune last October but never got much traction...

    http://connachttribune.ie/memorial-for-788-babies-buried-in-tuam-orphanage/


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    #832
    Karl Stein
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,689 ✭✭✭Karl Stein


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    Here's the thing.

    It is changing and it's changing because people did speak up.

    Thankfully, and those who did speak up should be commended for it.

    That said I think the default position in the vast majority of people is to cede power to authority largely unquestioningly.


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    #833
    bbsrs
    Registered Users Posts: 943 ✭✭✭bbsrs


    barney4001 wrote: »
    would arch bishop mcquaide have been around at that time,i am sure he would have been

    Mc Quaid was archbishop of Dub from 1940 to 71 and dean of Blackrock from 1925 to 39 but I wouldn't have been relying on him to stick up for the "illegitimate". Even though his motto as archbishop of dub was ‘Testimonium Perhibere Veritati’-"to bear witness to the truth".


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    #834
    GCU Flexible Demeanour
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,257 ✭✭✭GCU Flexible Demeanour


    Spring Onion wrote: »
    Weirdly this story was covered in the Connacht Tribune last October but never got much traction...

    http://connachttribune.ie/memorial-for-788-babies-buried-in-tuam-orphanage/
    In fairness, the memorial committee don't look like they're emotionally scarred by the whole business.


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    #835
    Neyite
    Administrators, Politics Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,947 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Neyite


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    Gardaí statement just read on on radio 1 - they say no investigation as apparently it could be a famine grave.

    A forensic anthropologist would soon determine that except the remains are not being handed over to the coroner...

    So - the Guards have dismissed it with no investigation whatsoever despite eyewitness accounts of burials been seen to take place in the 1950s and despite extensive research by a professional and highly competent historian the dead children's names do not appear in the records of any cemetery in the region.

    :mad:

    Well well well.

    Meanwhile, Adoption Rights Alliance Director Susan Lohan said the State knew about mass graves for babies for a long time.

    Ms Lohan called on the Government and the Department of Justice to speak out about the issue.

    She said Minister for Justice Frances Fitzgerald knows "all too well about the issue" because the Adoption Rights Alliance and other groups have been sending her material since she took office as Minister for Children in 2011.

    The alliance is calling on the Government to carry out an inquiry into around 25,000 Sacred Heart adoption files that were "dumped" with the Health Service Executive in 2011.

    Ms Fitzgerald received a report on the issue on 24 July last year, Ms Lohan said.


    So thats why the Gardai are playing it down...


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    #836
    Brian Shanahan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,232 ✭✭✭Brian Shanahan


    Cabaal wrote: »
    Murder,
    Its classed as murder now and its sure as hell murder in the 1940's

    Under international law, as defined by the Nuremberg Principles, I believe it would be a crime against humanity:
    Principle VI wrote:
    (c) Crimes against humanity: Murder, extermination, enslavement, deportation and other inhumane acts done against any civilian population, or persecutions on political, racial, or religious grounds, when such acts are done or such persecutions are carried on in execution of or in connection with any crime against peace or any war crime."


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    #837
    Bannasidhe
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 19,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    GCU Flexible Demeanour wrote: »
    Normally, change has a more materialist basis. The power of the Church is collapsing because people who matter no longer need it to protect their status and property.

    I think you are underestimating the impact of Mary Raftery's work and Christina Buckley's simple, honest, bravery if you don't think it has had a serious and lasting impact on how Irish people view the RCC.

    They opened the floodgates and allowed thousands of people to speak about the abuse they suffered.

    Those who needed the RCC to protect their property and status were a minority - albeit a powerful one and they haven't gone away you know. But the RCC is no longer in a position to protect them and when it becomes a liability - they will dump it.


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    #838
    Bannasidhe
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 19,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    Karl Stein wrote: »
    Thankfully, and those who did speak up should be commended for it.

    That said I think the default position in the vast majority of people is to cede power to authority largely unquestioningly.

    Absolutely.

    We learn it in primary school.


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    #839
    bbsrs
    Registered Users Posts: 943 ✭✭✭bbsrs


    Neyite wrote: »
    Well well well.

    Meanwhile, Adoption Rights Alliance Director Susan Lohan said the State knew about mass graves for babies for a long time.

    Ms Lohan called on the Government and the Department of Justice to speak out about the issue.

    She said Minister for Justice Frances Fitzgerald knows "all too well about the issue" because the Adoption Rights Alliance and other groups have been sending her material since she took office as Minister for Children in 2011.

    The alliance is calling on the Government to carry out an inquiry into around 25,000 Sacred Heart adoption files that were "dumped" with the Health Service Executive in 2011.

    Ms Fitzgerald received a report on the issue on 24 July last year, Ms Lohan said.


    So thats why the Gardai are playing it down...

    More bad press coming An Garda Siochana's way. For a small country we sure have a dirty history and the Republic isn't even 100 years old yet ! We got rid of the ould enemy and did just as good a job screwing our own people as they did.


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    #840
    Czarcasm
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,076 ✭✭✭✭Czarcasm


    Karl Stein wrote: »
    Thankfully, and those who did speak up should be commended for it.

    That said I think the default position in the vast majority of people is to cede power to authority largely unquestioningly.


    Unquestioningly, or more conveniently? As long as they don't have to deal with the problem, they're not too concerned with how someone else takes care of the problem for them.

    In this case, people didn't care about what happened to these young women and children as long as they didn't bring shame upon their families.


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    #841
    Bannasidhe
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 19,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    Neyite wrote: »
    Well well well.

    Meanwhile, Adoption Rights Alliance Director Susan Lohan said the State knew about mass graves for babies for a long time.

    Ms Lohan called on the Government and the Department of Justice to speak out about the issue.

    She said Minister for Justice Frances Fitzgerald knows "all too well about the issue" because the Adoption Rights Alliance and other groups have been sending her material since she took office as Minister for Children in 2011.

    The alliance is calling on the Government to carry out an inquiry into around 25,000 Sacred Heart adoption files that were "dumped" with the Health Service Executive in 2011.

    Ms Fitzgerald received a report on the issue on 24 July last year, Ms Lohan said.


    So thats why the Gardai are playing it down...

    Yes- thank you.

    Meant to post this but was too busy ranting elsewhere.

    Indeed - I wonder if we will have another case of the Minister wasn't told/files misplaced/oops like we had with the previous minister for justice -(yes, I know she was minister for children at the time but surely this is a matter for her current ministry now)


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