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Mass unmarked grave for 800 babies in Tuam

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    #632
    I Heart Internet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,678 ✭✭✭I Heart Internet


    Cabaal wrote: »
    Oh but you think its ok for the church to not release records to allow full and proper investigations then? because thats exactly what they are doing right now.

    No. I don't.
    Cabaal wrote: »
    In all seriousness, your doing the catholic church no favors in this thread

    As I said, I'm not interested in optics. I'm speaking on my own behalf. I don't like to see the awfullness of an unmarked grave of children be used as an excuse to air grievences with the RCC.


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    #633
    Bannasidhe
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 19,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    I Heart Internet wrote: »
    The Irish Catholic Church is an Irish (bundle of) organisations. Every parish, diocese, religious order, charity, (in some cases) schools are independent organisations.

    I mention Irish children because the Irish Catholic Church have oversight of this. I hope that other countries are taking note.

    'Independent' but ultimately under the absolute authority of the Vatican.

    No - that is not 'independent' - that is a franchise bound by the terms and conditions as laid down by head office. A franchise that was able to send child abusers to other franchise countries by passing the normal routes of immigration.

    Baptist churches are independent.
    Presbyterian ministries are independent.

    Roman Catholic dioceses are not 'independent' - they are very much dependent on the Vatican as their source of authority.


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    #634
    Bannasidhe
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 19,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    I Heart Internet wrote: »
    No. I don't.



    As I said, I'm not interested in optics. I'm speaking on my own behalf. I don't like to see the awfullness of an unmarked grave of children be used as an excuse to air grievences with the RCC.

    Seriously?

    You don't want the actions of members of the RCC's clergy men and women to be used as an excuse?

    It's not an excuse - it is a serious grievance!

    You may not be interested in optics but you are spouting them with statements like that.


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    #635
    Zubeneschamali
    Registered Users Posts: 16,686 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    I Heart Internet wrote: »
    And allow bias and half-truths to go unchecked?

    How do you know they are half-truths when you admit don't have the facts?


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    #636
    I Heart Internet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,678 ✭✭✭I Heart Internet


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    You don't want the actions of members of the RCC's clergy men and women to be used as an excuse?

    As an excuse to debate abortion and same-sex marriage, no. As an excuse to call people murderers, no.


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    #637
    I Heart Internet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,678 ✭✭✭I Heart Internet


    Zubeneschamali wrote: »
    How do you know they are half-truths when you admit don't have the facts?

    Mention of 800 children murdered springs to mind.


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    #638
    bumper234
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,250 ✭✭✭✭bumper234


    I Heart Internet wrote: »
    As an excuse to debate abortion and same-sex marriage, no. As an excuse to call people murderers, no.

    What would you call deliberately starving a child to death?


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    #639
    I Heart Internet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,678 ✭✭✭I Heart Internet


    bumper234 wrote: »
    What would you call deliberately starving a child to death?

    There is no evidence, other than heresay, that this ever happened in this case. It is, of course, murder.


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    #640
    Bannasidhe
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 19,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    I Heart Internet wrote: »
    As an excuse to debate abortion and same-sex marriage, no. As an excuse to call people murderers, no.
    A health board report from 1944 on the Tuam home describes emaciated, potbellied children, mentally unwell mothers and appalling overcrowding.
    http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jun/04/children-galway-mass-graves-ireland-catholic-church

    The exact crime is Unlawful Killing by Neglect.

    To do so deliberately is. imho, murder.


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    #641
    Cabaal
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,472 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    bumper234 wrote: »
    What would you call deliberately starving a child to death?

    Murder,
    Its classed as murder now and its sure as hell murder in the 1940's


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    #642
    bumper234
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,250 ✭✭✭✭bumper234


    I Heart Internet wrote: »
    There is no evidence, other than heresay, that this ever happened in this case. It is, of course, murder.

    Apart from the hundred death certificates that state cause of death was malnutrition you mean?


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    #643
    I Heart Internet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,678 ✭✭✭I Heart Internet


    Cabaal wrote: »
    Murder,
    Its classed as murder now and its sure as hell murder in the 1940's

    If that's what happened then I look forward to people before the courts. Or, at least, (in cases where responsible people are dead), a full investigation and findings, based on facts, against them.


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    #644
    Cabaal
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,472 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    I Heart Internet wrote: »
    If that's what happened then I look forward to people before the courts. Or, at least, (in cases where responsible people are dead), a full investigation and findings, based on facts, against them.

    Atleast some of the death certs state malnutrition
    As such its factual for me or anyone else to state murder,

    These kids were in a home to be cared for, this includes food. If they died of malnutrition this means they were not being fed properly.

    You can await further investigations all you want, but its fine for anyone here to state murder did happen in the interim


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    #645
    I Heart Internet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,678 ✭✭✭I Heart Internet


    bumper234 wrote: »
    Apart from the hundred death certificates that state cause of death was malnutrition you mean?

    You understand that malnutrition is not the same as starvation?

    You'd have to ask, if children were being deliberately killed by withholding food, then why would there be official death certs stating that. Why would these criminals (for that is what they would be) not put cause of death as "fever" or something like that to avoid trouble.


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    #646
    Bannasidhe
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 19,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    I Heart Internet wrote: »
    If that's what happened then I look forward to people before the courts. Or, at least, (in cases where responsible people are dead), a full investigation and findings, based on facts, against them.

    You are assuming the RCC will cooperate when they have shown a marked reluctance to do so.

    Do you think this is the only such grave?

    The RCC could start by giving the details on the others that are bound to be dotting around the country rather than issue platitudes and suggesting we have a mass.


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    #647
    Lingua Franca
    Registered Users Posts: 2,800 ✭✭✭Lingua Franca


    I Heart Internet wrote: »
    I'm waiting patiently for the Alliance for Choice's press release on the matter. Did I miss it??

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=90683493&postcount=4719


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    #648
    bumper234
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,250 ✭✭✭✭bumper234


    I Heart Internet wrote: »
    You understand that malnutrition is not the same as starvation?

    You'd have to ask, if children were being deliberately killed by withholding food, then why would there be official death certs stating that. Why would these criminals (for that is what they would be) not put cause of death as "fever" or something like that to avoid trouble.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malnutrition
    Malnutrition is the condition that results from eating a diet in which certain nutrients are lacking, in excess (too high in intake), or in the wrong proportions.[1][2] The verb form is "malnourish"; "malnourishment" is sometimes used instead of "malnutrition". A number of different nutrition disorders may arise, depending on which nutrients are under- or over-abundant in the diet. In most of the world, malnutrition is present in the form of under-nutrition, which is caused by a diet lacking adequate calories and protein[3][4] —not enough food, and of poor quality. Extreme undernourishment is starvation, and its symptoms and effects are inanition. While malnutrition is more common in less-developed countries, it is also present in industrialized countries. In wealthier nations it is more likely to be caused by unhealthy diets with excess energy, fats, and refined carbohydrates. A growing trend of obesity is now a major public health concern in lower socio-economic levels and in developing countries as well.[5]

    Nope


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    #649
    Cabaal
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,472 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    I Heart Internet wrote: »
    You understand that malnutrition is not the same as starvation?

    Oh so your defense is now that the nuns weren't able to provide a suitable nutritious diet but they had loads of food..and that they did feed the children with this food lacking proper nutrients?

    So they are not murderers, they were just incompetent?
    Oh well thats perfectly ok then.
    :rolleyes:

    Want to try again?


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    #650
    Bannasidhe
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 19,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    I Heart Internet wrote: »
    You understand that malnutrition is not the same as starvation?

    You'd have to ask, if children were being deliberately killed by withholding food, then why would there be official death certs stating that. Why would these criminals (for that is what they would be) not put cause of death as "fever" or something like that to avoid trouble.

    malnutrition
    malnjʊˈtrɪʃ(ə)n/Submit
    noun
    lack of proper nutrition, caused by not having enough to eat, not eating enough of the right things, or being unable to use the food that one does eat.
    "over 40,000 children die every day from malnutrition and disease"

    Indeed - it takes one longer to die of malnutrition and due to the inherent suppression of the immune system one is likely to die of disease first.

    You do know these places received funding to cover the cost of feeding the children.

    I am beginning to feel sorry for you that you need to quibble about semantics rather than face up to the reality of abuse, neglect and torture carried out by the so-called moral guardians of our society.


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    #651
    bumper234
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,250 ✭✭✭✭bumper234


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    malnutrition
    malnjʊˈtrɪʃ(ə)n/Submit
    noun
    lack of proper nutrition, caused by not having enough to eat, not eating enough of the right things, or being unable to use the food that one does eat.
    "over 40,000 children die every day from malnutrition and disease"

    Indeed - it takes one longer to die of malnutrition and due to the inherent suppression of the immune system one is likely to die of disease first.

    You do know these places received funding to cover the cost of feeding the children.

    I am beginning to feel sorry for you that you need to quibble about semantics rather than face up to the reality of abuse, neglect and torture carried out by the so-called moral guardians of our society.

    Which also puts a spoke in the argument "Oh well most died from disease"


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    #652
    Birroc
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,070 ✭✭✭Birroc


    I Heart Internet wrote: »
    You understand that malnutrition is not the same as starvation?

    You'd have to ask, if children were being deliberately killed by withholding food, then why would there be official death certs stating that. Why would these criminals (for that is what they would be) not put cause of death as "fever" or something like that to avoid trouble.

    You really are making a fool out of yourself now.


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    #653
    Cabaal
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,472 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    http://www.thejournal.ie/800-babies-government-1499684-Jun2014/
    CHILDREN’S MINISTER CHARLIE Flanagan has said that a number of departments are looking into how best to address the issues raised as a result of the allegations a mass grave on the grounds of a former children’s home in Galway.


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    #654
    Bannasidhe
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 19,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    bumper234 wrote: »
    Which also puts a spoke in the argument "Oh well most died from disease"

    and I'm sure it is coincidence that 'illegitimate' children had a 60% mortality rate while 'legitimate' never topped 15%.


    1959287_512541548847631_4178544735978077408_n.jpg

    Amazing that it appears the 'bastards' were disproportionally adversely affected by 'malnutrition'. Wonder why?


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    #655
    I Heart Internet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,678 ✭✭✭I Heart Internet


    Birroc wrote: »
    You really are making a fool out of yourself now.

    You see nothing strange about official recordings of death by malnutrition being regarded (at the time) as completley fine and dandy?


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    #656
    Fries-With-That
    Registered Users Posts: 776 ✭✭✭Fries-With-That


    I Heart Internet wrote: »
    As I said, I'm not interested in optics. I'm speaking on my own behalf. I don't like to see the awfullness of an unmarked grave of children be used as an excuse to air grievences with the RCC.


    I'm flabbergasted by this comment.

    When you consider that the RCC was the parent organisation of the people that were directly responsible for this mass grave, and in the absence of any statement from that parent organisation its entirely acceptable that people would have grievances with that organisation.

    I'm sure you can see this, and I'm sure that your efforts to have the people on this thread display a modicum of balance when discussing this topic is akin to the task of Sisyphus because the organisation responsible has failed so many times to address similar issues that encourage grievance.


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    #657
    Bannasidhe
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 19,219 Mod ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    I Heart Internet wrote: »
    You see nothing strange about official recordings of death by malnutrition being regarded (at the time) as completley fine and dandy?

    Sure - lets shift the blame.


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    #658
    Zubeneschamali
    Registered Users Posts: 16,686 ✭✭✭✭Zubeneschamali


    I Heart Internet wrote: »
    Mention of 800 children murdered springs to mind.

    And you have the facts that proves that allegation wrong?

    No, didn't think so - you are just mouthing off without all the facts, something you said earlier you don't want to do.

    It's easy - just stop.


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    #659
    Cabaal
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 28,472 Mod ✭✭✭✭Cabaal


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    Sure - lets shift the blame.

    He's made himself look foolish trying to go on the defensive so its his only option now
    :D


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    #660
    Birroc
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,070 ✭✭✭Birroc


    I Heart Internet wrote: »
    You see nothing strange about official recordings of death by malnutrition being regarded (at the time) as completley fine and dandy?

    Oh yes I do see it as strange. I see it as murder with zero justice.


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    #661
    I Heart Internet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,678 ✭✭✭I Heart Internet


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    Sure - lets shift the blame.

    No, what I'm getting at is - why would "the powers that be" allow death certificated (100s potentially) to exist that said children were dying from malnutrition (leading to the question of why they were suffering from malnutrition), unless there was some other reason for the malnutrition, apart from deliberate starvation.


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