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Hendry V O'sullivan- Whos the greatest?

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    #122
    Slicemeister
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,526 ✭✭✭Slicemeister


    Bruthal wrote: »
    It was incredible alright. Was one frame where selby left 5 snookers in a row when not intending to. One of those days where he could do no wrong. Had more than an average run of the balls


    He was beat fair and square, couldn't match Selby's safety play. Hasn't got the temperament nor the resolve when the game isn't going his way. Naturally the most gifted of his generation, he has fallen well short of matching his ability in terms of success so far in his career.


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    #123
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,422 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    Slicemeister wrote: »
    He was beat fair and square, couldn't match Selby's safety play.

    I dont remember saying he cheated. I thought selby would win, even at 10-5, because he would drive o sulivan mad. But he had some serious run of the balls in a few frames.


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    #124
    Slicemeister
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,526 ✭✭✭Slicemeister


    Bruthal wrote: »
    I dont remember saying he cheated

    Was referring to his "more than average run of the balls" statement.


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    #125
    cruasder777
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,332 ✭✭✭cruasder777


    Bruthal wrote: »
    He kept his cool in the final as well in what must have been a serious frustrating match. Little things just were not going right.

    How he missed that pink is astonishing. I have not picked up the snooker cue for a proper game in 20 years, and still couldnt miss that pink.

    Green in off potting the red a couple of frames earlier was another one.


    Thats the difference, Ronnie is the greater talent, but in a million years Hendry would not have missed that pink.


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    #126
    cruasder777
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,332 ✭✭✭cruasder777


    Slicemeister wrote: »
    He was beat fair and square, couldn't match Selby's safety play. Hasn't got the temperament nor the resolve when the game isn't going his way. Naturally the most gifted of his generation, he has fallen well short of matching his ability in terms of success so far in his career.


    Selby has got more finals in him. I fancy him to go on to win it again in the future.

    I agree Ronnie is leagues ahead in talent, he should have won it 8 or 9 times.

    But then others players have not had hes upbringing, both parents in jail at the same time etc.

    Hendry is from a very stable background, like Davis.


    Ronnie, Alex, Jimmy never had that kind of stability.


    Alex Higgins oldfellow used to put hes weeks wages on Alex, if he lost the family never ate and Alex got a beating, that kind of thing has to affect you.


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    #127
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,422 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    Slicemeister wrote: »
    Was referring to his "more than average run of the balls" statement.

    He seemed to have some serious run of the ball though.

    The pink being one of the biggest, all be it bad play rather than chance. Not in a million years could selby expect to have won that frame due to that miss.

    With the butt end of the cue, a sunday player wouldnt miss that, unless he was lee maybe.


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    #128
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,422 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    cruasder777 wrote: »
    Thats the difference, Ronnie is the greater talent, but in a million years Hendry would not have missed that pink.

    Any player having played for a few hours from never having played before wouldnt miss it. Was very strange. So simple a shot, that using it to compare o`sulivan v hendry is worthless.

    Hit way too hard even to stun onto the black.


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    #129
    Slicemeister
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,526 ✭✭✭Slicemeister


    Yeah very fair point crusader.It shouldn't detract from how Selby won against what was beginning to look like an unassailable lead by Ronnie at 10-5. I really enjoyed the nit and grit of the safety exchanges, thought Selby played the better percentage shots.

    I'm the same as the next lad in wanting to see an open enthralling game such that Ronnie delivers time and again, but Selby realised he could never beat him at his own game so went on the offensive with his own safety game. It eventually wore Ronnie down and a few others also.... It won him the world championship though.


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    #130
    irishthump
    Registered Users Posts: 340 ✭✭irishthump


    No real answer to this question, but it's fun to debate that's for sure....

    Davis vs Hendry vs O'Sullivan - If you go by world titles then Ronnie is bottom of the three, I would tend to agree.

    Personally I would put Davis at no. 1. Great as O'Sullivan and Hendry are and were, neither of them had the stranglehold on the game that Davis had in the 80's, and I think that is what shades it in The Nugget's favour. Today's snooker fans seem to regard him as nothing more than a master safety player and tactician but anyone who saw him in action in his heyday will tell you that his long potting and breakbuilding were of the highest standard. In fact when his game matured after his first couple of world titles he had arguably the best all round game that snooker has ever seen.

    Hendry at no.2 is the most devastating scorer the sport has ever seen, his 775 centuries stand testament to that. But his tactical game was never really strong. In fact it could be said that when Hendry was scoring heavily he tended to lose. He would invariably try to force the game and pot his way out of trouble, so he was always vulnerable in close matches. Having said that his temperament was probably the strongest of all three players.

    Now don't get me wrong, Ronnie is phenomenal! He is without doubt the greatest cueist of all time and will most likely surpass Hendry's record for career centuries and is all round game is stronger than Hendry's. But his lack of consistency and his unstable temperament during matches and even entire seasons let him down big time.

    As for who would win if they played each other at their peak?

    Davis vs Hendry - I think Davis would win hands down. I just couldn't see him getting many scoring chances! Davis' safety would tie him in knots and Davis would have the scoring power to punish him for any mistakes.

    Davis vs O'Sullivan - 50/50. While not as good tactically as Davis, Ronnie is very astute when he wants to be and he can out score Davis.

    Hendry vs O'Sullivan - Again 50/50 and that would depend on Ronnie's state of mind. If he plays a more tactical game he could outplay Hendry, but if he goes the attacking route he could probably find himself potted off the table.

    Oh, and I noticed somebody dismissing Joe Davis as saying he wouldn't win a frame against a modern pro... Pure horses*it! Davis made 687 centuries in his 20 year career and you don't do that without considerable scoring power! Also, the playing conditions in his era were abysmal by today's or even the 70's/80's standards. In fact Ted Lowe (who would have seen Joe Davis playing in his prime) always said that if you put Davis in modern conditions he wouldn't miss a ball.


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    #131
    irishthump
    Registered Users Posts: 340 ✭✭irishthump


    Bruthal wrote: »
    He seemed to have some serious run of the ball though.

    The pink being one of the biggest, all be it bad play rather than chance. Not in a million years could selby expect to have won that frame due to that miss.

    With the butt end of the cue, a sunday player wouldnt miss that, unless he was lee maybe.

    What kind of a statement is that?!!!

    That was no "rub-of-the-green"! Ronnie missed the damn pink!


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    #132
    irishthump
    Registered Users Posts: 340 ✭✭irishthump


    Bruthal wrote: »
    Missed pink was incredible. That shot might have made a difference to the outcome. Worst miss I ever seen.

    Turning point of the match, IMHO.

    It would have only put Ronnie 12-11 up but he would have halted Selby's gallop and been ahead going into the final session. Instead he has the whole interval to let the missed pink get to him.


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    #133
    walshb
    Registered Users Posts: 54,603 ✭✭✭✭walshb


    cruasder777 wrote: »
    Selby has got more finals in him. I fancy him to go on to win it again in the future.

    .

    The multiple champs are usually the great break builders. It's needed. Higgins and Hendry and O'Sullivan. Davis in the 80s wasn't as proficient a break builder, but the opposition weren't either. Selby could win more, but it's a toss up.


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    #134
    cack_handed
    Closed Accounts Posts: 287 ✭✭cack_handed


    What happened after O'Sullivan's missed pink? He made a century next frame.....a big moment, fair enough, but perhaps not as much of a turning point as people say. Even had Ronnie made that pink and sneaked back in front, you still can't say Selby wouldn't have battled back and fought to the end. Assuredly, he would have.

    I wouldn't necessarily under-estimate Selby's break-building capacity. We know, for sure, what his strengths are, but career stats of a century every 15.9 frames aren't shabby. That puts him ahead of most of the pack


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    #135
    Nuts102
    Registered Users Posts: 8,704 ✭✭✭Nuts102


    cack_handed wrote: »
    What happened after O'Sullivan's missed pink? He made a century next frame.....a big moment, fair enough, but perhaps not as much of a turning point as people say. Even had Ronnie made that pink and sneaked back in front, you still can't say Selby wouldn't have battled back and fought to the end. Assuredly, he would have.

    I wouldn't necessarily under-estimate Selby's break-building capacity. We know, for sure, what his strengths are, but career stats of a century every 15.9 frames aren't shabby. That puts him ahead of most of the pack

    Ronnie would have went home feeling in a better mood holding a lead. Instead he had hours to let that pink get on his nerves. It was a massive moment in the game.


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    #136
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,422 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    irishthump wrote: »
    What kind of a statement is that?!!!

    That was no "rub-of-the-green"! Ronnie missed the damn pink!

    If I was playing a once a fortnight player, I would consider myself very fortunate if he missed that pink. It was a 1000 out of 1000 shot. Was a strange miss.


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    #137
    cack_handed
    Closed Accounts Posts: 287 ✭✭cack_handed


    Nuts102 wrote: »
    Ronnie would have went home feeling in a better mood holding a lead. Instead he had hours to let that pink get on his nerves. It was a massive moment in the game.

    As always with ROnnie, though, how the fck do you even begin to try get into his skull? Maybe it was just as well he had the interval next, as the next frame back he hit a brilliant century, so you could argue no major damage done....

    Whatever happened with that pink, though, i suspect we will never know. Have my doubts even Ronnie could adequately explain it himself


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    #138
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,422 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    He could actually be past his absolute prime ability wise, but has become more focused, which can have the affect of playing better overall, up to that final anyway.


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    #139
    pmy.murphy
    Registered Users Posts: 1,583 ✭✭✭pmy.murphy


    I still say Hendry is the best although I am a huge Ronnie fan. I think the evidence speaks for itself, Hendry has won the most titles although Ronnie is the greatest natural talent without a doubt, his poor attitude has meant he has never won as much to justify his talent where on the other hand, Hendry was just a robot in his absolute prime, dominating every tournament and everyone, he was un touchable, much of that was down to his fantastic temperament and his style of play, nothing phased him, He was a machine. But take nothing away from his ability either, Hendry is one of the greatest long potters and break builders there has ever been, even past his prime, he was still in the top 16 into his forties up until the season he retired and although his long game was not what it used to be, his break building was still up there among the very best


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    #140
    Joya
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,365 ✭✭✭Joya


    melon_collie wrote: »
    Yeah I'd have to agree with this. O'Sullivan is by far the most talented and naturally gifted player there has ever been. But psychologically he is lacking and unpredicitible . . . . . and for that reason I would put him below Hendry.
    . . . . . and for that reason I would put
    Ronnie in front because of his achievements despite all difficulties...
    wonderfullife wrote: »
    If we are going purely on the modern era then:
    1. Ronnie
    2. Hendry
    3. Davis
    4. John Higgins
    5. Ding
    I would not place Higgins on any list after what he s done.


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    #141
    pmy.murphy
    Registered Users Posts: 1,583 ✭✭✭pmy.murphy


    Joya wrote: »
    . . . . . and for that reason I would put
    Ronnie in front because of his achievements despite all difficulties...


    I would not place Higgins on any list after what he s done.

    This is something that keeps annoying me, Higgins is a legend of the game, when are people just going to get over it like calling him a cheat and all this general crap. His achievements speaks for itself plus he was cleared of all charges so really I wish people would get over it and before I get slated for being pro Higgins, I must say that any legend of the game i would stand up for, I have many players who I would class as my favourites and who I would go out of my way to watch to this day like Ronnie, Hendry before he retired, Higgins, Williams, even Steve Davis and Jimmy White I would go out of my way to watch their qualifying games online along with our own crafty Ken Doherty. Its childish the way people keep banging on about Higgins, he was cleared of the charges plus his achievements say enough at why he should be in that conversation as one of the great players. One of the most complete all round players along with Davis the game has ever seen


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    #142
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,422 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    pmy.murphy wrote: »
    This is something that keeps annoying me, Higgins is a legend of the game, when are people just going to get over it like calling him a cheat and all this general crap. His achievements speaks for itself plus he was cleared of all charges so really I wish people would get over it and before I get slated for being pro Higgins, I must say that any legend of the game i would stand up for, I have many players who I would class as my favourites and who I would go out of my way to watch to this day like Ronnie, Hendry before he retired, Higgins, Williams, even Steve Davis and Jimmy White I would go out of my way to watch their qualifying games online along with our own crafty Ken Doherty. Its childish the way people keep banging on about Higgins, he was cleared of the charges plus his achievements say enough at why he should be in that conversation as one of the great players. One of the most complete all round players along with Davis the game has ever seen

    He may have been cleared, but a lower profile player may well have been in the Lee club there.

    But at the same time, it's not too easy to cheat your way to winning matches really. So was clearly still a great player.


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    #143
    Joya
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,365 ✭✭✭Joya


    pmy.murphy wrote: »
    This is something that keeps annoying me, Higgins is a legend of the game, when are people just going to get over it like calling him a cheat and all this general crap.
    he got it onto himself, didn't he..
    Bruthal wrote: »
    He may have been cleared, but a lower profile player may well have been in the Lee club there.

    exactly.. cleared or not he sold the sport he played in, that's how i see it. if there would not be the video of it i could have some doubts but like this i just cannot forgive it, because i'd feel it unfair for all the players who did or would never do it and who have the respect for this sport.. not that i loved higgins even before, somehow he was like a machine playing for money or ego, not from the love of the sport. anyway these were just my thoughts on him, but the act that he did definitely removed him from all of my lists.


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    #144
    cack_handed
    Closed Accounts Posts: 287 ✭✭cack_handed


    In the interests of accuracy I dont think its fair to suggest Higgins was cleared of all charges, only those relating to match fixing or the attempt to fix matches. He got done for not reporting the approaches, 6 months iirc as well as a hefty fine, and I'd say he felt relieved to get off with that and it seemed to be the view of several of his fellow players that, all in all, he was a lucky blighter.

    That said, I do agree up to a point that the vilification of higgins in the meantime is both excessive and poorly conceived. I'd hazard a guess that most of those who would condemn higgins or portray him as a cheat never bothered to read the report of the investigation and merely satisfied themselves with the "evidence" produced by the News of the World which was subsquently shown to have been substantially doctored so the paper could get a story out of it

    Of course, only the insane would believe snooker to be free of corruption and the naive that it isnt fairly widespread, but in tackling it you also have to respect the wheels of justice and in condemning any player on the basis of that now mercifully defunct tabloid newspaper is not something I'd personally wish to be part of


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    #145
    BQQ
    Registered Users Posts: 2,028 ✭✭✭BQQ


    Joya wrote: »



    exactly.. cleared or not he sold the sport he played in, that's how i see it. if there would not be the video of it i could have some doubts but like this i just cannot forgive it, because i'd feel it unfair for all the players who did or would never do it and who have the respect for this sport.. not that i loved higgins even before, somehow he was like a machine playing for money or ego, not from the love of the sport. anyway these were just my thoughts on him, but the act that he did definitely removed him from all of my lists.

    Well if that was a factor in your decision, surely you must look on O'Sullivan's failed dope test in the same light.


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    #146
    Joya
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,365 ✭✭✭Joya


    BQQ wrote: »
    Well if that was a factor in your decision, surely you must look on O'Sullivan's failed dope test in the same light.

    well if you asked me, I would have to honestly answer to that, and I am afraid smoking marijuana in circumstances of his life at the time, I have more compassion for..

    perhaps it's the motives behind the wrongdoing that is making it different for me..


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