Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

"Government is prepared for railway closures"

Options
24567…13

Comments

  • Options
    #32
    monument
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,073 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    lxflyer wrote: »
    I think we do however need to take these comments in context. He is not saying that he is minded towards closing railway lines per se.

    The Minister is basically laying down the gauntlet to both the unions and the company to sort their differences out at the Labour Court and to get their finances in order. That means doing a deal that delivers the necessary savings to make the railways viable.

    There still appears to be a large number of IE staff living with the fantasy that the government will bail them out. He is basically saying they won't in very clear language, and that if a deal isn't done soon, that the prospect of closures will raise their head.

    The minister was on the Radio 1's News at One saying as much.

    But closing little-used lines could be the first thing to happen before hitting well-used services.

    SpaceTime wrote: »
    For rail to be an effective proposition you need to have volumes of passengers and dense populations and that's largely why the WRC doesn't really work.
    Comparing it to urban transport like the DART doesn't really make any sense.

    That's not how politics works in this country.

    I agree with what you're saying but I'm outlining how things work with Irish politics and transport, not how things should be.


  • Options
    #33
    foggy_lad
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,373 ✭✭✭✭foggy_lad


    lxflyer wrote: »
    I think we do however need to take these comments in context. He is not saying that he is minded towards closing railway lines per se.

    The Minister is basically laying down the gauntlet to both the unions and the company to sort their differences out at the Labour Court and to get their finances in order. That means doing a deal that delivers the necessary savings to make the railways viable.

    There still appears to be a large number of IE staff living with the fantasy that the government will bail them out. He is basically saying they won't in very clear language, and that if a deal isn't done soon, that the prospect of closures will raise their head.

    The way I read it is the minister has delivered a warning to not just unions but to Irish rail to get their house in order or decisions will be made for them very soon. He is obviously not happy with Irish rail getting half a subsidy when they only carry 15% of the passengers. Personally I can see the unions making a stand now especially after the minister's comments, but if they do I fear it will be their last.


  • Options
    #34
    jackofalltrades
    Registered Users Posts: 3,249 ✭✭✭jackofalltrades


    I really don't believe the government is prepared for railway closures. I think local politics will trump economic realities any day of the week.
    I believe Dart Underground will be abandoned well before the WRC.
    Further reducing the practicality of Intercity rail services to Dublin. Hueston is just too far out of the city.

    The trains journey time lead on viable Inter-city routes, is going to be further eroded once the last bottleneck at Newlands Cross is removed.

    Then were going to have buses that have a huge advantage on price and only only a slight disadvantage in time.

    I think a maximum subsidy per passenger should be brought in.
    Let commercial pressures decide which routes fail and which ones survive.


  • Options
    #35
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 28,998 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    foggy_lad wrote: »
    Like many of the other lines here and in the UK which were closed the ballybrophy to limerick and Limerick junction to Waterford lines have had almost no passengers for a long number of years despite many many attempts to change services and alter times to cater for as many people as possible.
    rubbish, any attempts were pittyful and just lip service
    foggy_lad wrote: »
    I gave up listening to people taking of how Irish rail have been closing the lines by stealth for years because these people can offer no viable alternatives and seem to offer the same unworkable ideas again and again
    no, you stopped listening because you don't like the fact that irish rail are incompetent and only run lines properly that they want to run and not the whole network, limerick waterford is an intercity route with large towns such as clonmell and so on, the reason people don't use the line, little services, no connections to anything, line speeds from the early 20th century, and the governments policy of doing everything to boost car ownership to get more road tax revenue.
    foggy_lad wrote: »
    simply saying that there should be more services and better trains will not fix these lines!
    no, they won't, but simply closing them won't solve anything either, it just lets irish rail off the hook to run down anything they don't wish to run, and it contracts the rail network further, it gets to a stage where keeping the rest open will be pointless
    foggy_lad wrote: »
    There was at least 3 services each way on Waterford to Limerick junction at one stage and still no passengers.
    slow, no connections, no nothing.
    foggy_lad wrote: »
    Then times were tweaked to try to improve numbers
    when, the times have been laughable for years, speeds were never improved, and still no connections into anything.
    foggy_lad wrote: »
    services had to be cut to 2 trains each way to avoid needing an extra shift
    they could have solved that by removing or automating the level crossings which would have saved them more money in the long run, the extra shift was an excuse, they wanted to run the line down further.
    foggy_lad wrote: »
    thus making the line much more viable
    yeah, right, they removed services because its better then getting the finger out and actually doing something, irish rail have had ampel opportunity to save this and improve other lines, they didn't, so nobody is surprised few use this line, cutting services don't make a line "viable" they undermine a struggling line further.
    foggy_lad wrote: »
    the passengers did not materialise.
    because the trains are to slow and theirs no connections into anything, they just use the car instead because they have a bad image or a long memory of the days of very rubbish public transport.
    foggy_lad wrote: »
    The ballybrophy branch line is just an expensive drain on resources for Irish rail
    again, because they did nothing to improve it and left it to rot, they deliberately ran this down as a passenger service, except people saw through their actions hense the passenger service still exists for now.
    foggy_lad wrote: »
    and should have been closed years ago.
    not at all, irish rail don't deserve to be able to close lines
    foggy_lad wrote: »
    The Athenry to Ennis section should not have been opened
    i agree.
    foggy_lad wrote: »
    now that there is proof of its absolute failure it should be closed as soon as possible.
    not going to happen.
    foggy_lad wrote: »
    There is nothing that can be done to force people to use trains when they have always and will always use their cars because it suits their needs.
    yeah, because of government policy and long memories of shoddy public transport, and how do you know theirs nothing can be done? it may be to late now, but it could have been done if the will was there which it wasn't.
    foggy_lad wrote: »
    Even those without a car are cater for much better by bus along the western rail corridor with more frequent and much more flexible services.
    what much more flexible services, how do you know their catered for much better by these bus services? maybe their infact not and have no other choice, just because a bus service is frequent doesn't mean it always goes where one wants to go, busses may be flexible but that doesn't mean the routes they operate are, just because busses exist is no good reason not to have railways where they exist, i know if my railway closed i wouldn't be getting the bus, i'd either stay at home or get a lift.
    foggy_lad wrote: »
    Unfortunately closures have been a real possibility for a number of years
    yeah, and they will do nothing, solve nothing, and save nothing
    foggy_lad wrote: »
    at least the savings made will provide some stability and security to the rest of the railway network and staff.
    oh dear god, what savings, the money will be swallowed up most probably, lets go back to the 60s, "the savings made will provide some stability and security to the rest of the railway network and staff" yet 40 years later were talking about more closures, closures don't save the rail network, yet you come out with the same nonsense that has been proven to fail, time to except that policy has failed and try again

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



  • Options
    #36
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 28,998 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    foggy_lad wrote: »
    Asking for trains to meet ferries is not a possibility in reality, ferries are often early or late and trains on a branch line can't hang around or staffing costs could be as much as doubled. As for direct trains, we have had all that before, trains went from limerick junction to rosslare, but it was not attracting enough passengers to keep the line open. There was no possibility of direct trains from limerick when there was already a suitable service to limerick junction.

    The honest truth of the whole rosslare issue is that foot passenger numbers have not been high enough to sustain a rail service for quite a few decades and we can safely say that the demand that was just about there in the 60s will never be seen again.
    waterford limerick is not a branch line, its an intercity line, infact the whole limerick rosslare line is a main line

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #37
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users Posts: 17,579 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    monument wrote: »
    The minister was on the Radio 1's News at One saying as much.

    But closing little-used lines could be the first thing to happen before hitting well-used services.



    I think that we will have to wait and see what happens in the Labour Court before we start speculating about what the Minister might/might not do.

    At the moment I don't see line closures happening if a deal is done.

    In his earlier Prime Time interview he did hint at modest investment that would deliver real improvements in Intercity journey times - that is what needs to happen.


  • Options
    #38
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 28,998 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    roddney wrote: »
    Divert funds to investment in commuter rail and light rail in Dublin, Cork, Limerick and Galway instead.
    and leave the rest of us without a rail network? no thanks, the current main lines are part of the network as a whole which should include both these main lines and railways and light rail around our citties

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



  • Options
    #39
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 28,998 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    corktina wrote: »
    or the (used by thousands everyday quicker and cheaper) motorways vs (€103 million sunk without trace and losing millions more annually) rail line?
    you mean the (used by thousands everyday quicker and cheaper because it was built at huge expense for the state cars) at the expence of the railway) motorways vs (barely got any investment railways) .
    can you not realize that just because the WRC was a mistake doesn't mean the rest should have gotten little investment?

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



  • Options
    #40
    ClovenHoof
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,121 ✭✭✭ClovenHoof


    Basically it is telling the unions to get stuffed. The rail closers are just talk and if it did happen only WRC could be realistically closed. Lim-Waterford and Ballina is safe with the frieght.


  • Options
    #41
    corktina
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,733 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    end of the road wrote: »
    you mean the (used by thousands everyday quicker and cheaper because it was built at huge expense for the state cars) at the expence of the railway) motorways vs (barely got any investment railways) .
    can you not realize that just because the WRC was a mistake doesn't mean the rest should have gotten little investment?

    It's simply not true. There has been massive investment in railways, both in track/signalling improvements and in rolling stock. That that investment was mis-managed by IE doesn't negate the millions spent.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #42
    Jamie2k9
    Registered Users Posts: 10,675 ✭✭✭✭Jamie2k9


    corktina wrote: »
    It's simply not true. There has been massive investment in railways, both in track/signalling improvements and in rolling stock. That that investment was mis-managed by IE doesn't negate the millions spent.

    The investment in tracks and signalling 10-15 years ago, what about other investments needed to improve service such as LC removals and farm crossings.


  • Options
    #43
    corktina
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,733 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    Jamie2k9 wrote: »
    The investment in tracks and signalling 10-15 years ago, what about other investments needed to improve service such as LC removals and farm crossings.

    On my local line, overpasses have been installed in the last year at crossings...presumably this is an on-going programme to improve the economics of a line destined to be retained.


  • Options
    #44
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 28,998 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    Minister for Transport Leo Varadkar: said that buses “offer better value to the
    taxpayer” than trains.
    not good enough varadkar, i do not want bus as the main form of public transport as it doesn't and never will meet my needs, a fully integrated transport service using both might just do that though.
    Addressing delegates at a transport conference in Dublin yesterday Mr Varadkar
    cited former CIÉ chairman Todd Andrews as having had the courage to close 12
    uneconomic railway lines
    are we thinking of the same todd andrews? not only am i counting a hell of a lot more then 12 lines closed including waterford tramore which i believe was making a proffit when it closed, but wasn't andrews involved in roadstone? oh he had the courage to close railways all right, ellimenate the competition?
    – only one of which– the Harcourt Street to Bray line,
    was “probably”a mistake, he said.
    only probably? a big mistake you mean, what about the huge west cork network that was ripped out completely, some of that surely was a big mistake?
    In such a scenario he said the Government was prepared to transfer
    funding away from railways to more efficient buses “which offer better value
    money for the taxpayer”.
    not on the route i use their not, slower and more uncomfortable in my experience, switch from rail to bus and you can shove public transport, i won't use it, as it won't meet my needs, as i said an integrated service using both might meet them
    as for "better value to the tax payer" not good enough, many things are better value but that doesn't mean its the right way or acceptable

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



  • Options
    #45
    SpaceTime
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,088 ✭✭✭SpaceTime


    jackofalltrades wrote: »
    I really don't believe the government is prepared for railway closures. I think local politics will trump economic realities any day of the week.
    I believe Dart Underground will be abandoned well before the WRC.
    Further reducing the practicality of Intercity rail services to Dublin. Hueston is just too far out of the city.

    The trains journey time lead on viable Inter-city routes, is going to be further eroded once the last bottleneck at Newlands Cross is removed.

    Then were going to have buses that have a huge advantage on price and only only a slight disadvantage in time.

    I think a maximum subsidy per passenger should be brought in.
    Let commercial pressures decide which routes fail and which ones survive.

    To be honest, the DART underground setup's impact on intercity routes is really quite minimal. Heuston's not that difficult to reach by Luas, Bus or Taxi.

    The huge impact it has is connecting up Dublin's commuter rail network into an actual network with decent capacity for people who might want to actually cross the city in an East-West direction and have access to the other lines. At peak times the Luas red line isn't really high capacity enough to cope with serious loads going on at Heuston.

    I actually think it's a shame they didn't just underground the Luas from Heuston to Connolly in the same way that Brussels does "pre metro" lines.

    The Green Line Luas needs to link in directly too.


  • Options
    #46
    corktina
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,733 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    SpaceTime wrote: »
    To be honest, the DART underground setup's impact on intercity routes is really quite minimal. Heuston's not that difficult to reach by Luas, Bus or Taxi.

    The huge impact it has is connecting up Dublin's commuter rail network into an actual network with decent capacity for people who might want to actually cross the city in an East-West direction and have access to the other lines. At peak times the Luas red line isn't really high capacity enough to cope with serious loads going on at Heuston.

    I actually think it's a shame they didn't just underground the Luas from Heuston to Connolly in the same way that Brussels does "pre metro" lines.

    The Green Line Luas needs to link in directly too.

    People on here will tell you there is no need for the Crossrail scheme in London because people do not make cross city journeys...I'd assume given that,the same would apply to Dublin x100.


  • Options
    #47
    SpaceTime
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,088 ✭✭✭SpaceTime


    corktina wrote: »
    People on here will tell you there is no need for the Crossrail scheme in London because people do not make cross city journeys...I'd assume given that,the same would apply to Dublin x100.

    People only don't make those journeys because they can't though.
    London's largely constrained by the quirks of the Tube network.

    Opening up more of Dublin's housing stock to access to major areas of work would be quite a big deal in terms of making the city more liveable and it's something that a cross-Dublin link could do.

    I am still not convinced that the U-DART is the only solution though. Something to speed up Luas interconnectivity would possibly be cheaper.


  • Options
    #48
    roddney
    Registered Users Posts: 72 ✭✭roddney


    end of the road wrote: »
    and leave the rest of us without a rail network? no thanks, the current main lines are part of the network as a whole which should include both these main lines and railways and light rail around our citties

    If you think that, then you should pay a ticket price that reflects full cost of providing the service. Like €300-400 for a journey. The free travel pass (OAP not disability) should probably be removed for all intercity too as it's a premium service really. Note, I'm not saying get rid of the utilised services like Dublin - Belfast, Cork, Limerick.

    I have to squash onto a way over capacity and disgustingly over crowded 2 or 4 carriage Dart (just outside of IE's very limited definition of peak times) these days to save costs.


  • Options
    #49
    SpaceTime
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,088 ✭✭✭SpaceTime


    I actually do think that because of capacity constraints on intercity services, they should be encouraging free-pass users at the very least to use off-peak trains.

    I would think it'd be reasonable enough to not allow free pass holders to use peak-time trains without paying normal fares.


  • Options
    #50
    Judgement Day
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,549 ✭✭✭✭Judgement Day


    With the exception of the end of the road there's a great deal of guff in this thread so I may as well add my tuppence worth. Some people here have a severe anti-rail mentality and confuse CIE/IE's inability to run things properly with an inability for things to be run properly by anybody. Can anybody point to anything CIE have ever run properly - the Great Southern Hotels, the canals, ferries to the Aran Islands, pleasure craft on the Shannon, the Bombardier Bus factory in Limerick - even the furniture removals company (once the standard bearer in the business) is gone. Everything the company has got involved with has been a disaster - the Midas touch in reverse!

    All the bs about closing railways both here and from that opportunistic charlatan Varadkar make me want to spew. The rubbish from one poster about CIE's attempt to tweek timetables on the Limerick/Rosslare Hbr and Limerick/Ballybrophy is so wrong as to be not worth replying to - I lived on one of those lines and tweeking the timetables was done but with the opposite intention!

    Varadkar on Today FM trotting out the old ****e about loving trains and watching old movies with trains in them. What sort of ****e talk is that??

    Closing anymore railways and you might as well close the lot down. What happens when oil prices inevitably go through the roof or when supplies dwindle? What about our need to reduce carbon emissions? Anyway, enough said.


  • Options
    #51
    corktina
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,733 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    Oh come on JD...did you not see the electric car revolution happening? What do trains run on mostly in this country? Peak Oil is a bogus argument


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #52
    corktina
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,733 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    SpaceTime wrote: »
    People only don't make those journeys because they can't though.
    London's largely constrained by the quirks of the Tube network.

    Opening up more of Dublin's housing stock to access to major areas of work would be quite a big deal in terms of making the city more liveable and it's something that a cross-Dublin link could do.

    I am still not convinced that the U-DART is the only solution though. Something to speed up Luas interconnectivity would possibly be cheaper.

    My point was , of course, that people DO make those journeys.....:rolleyes:


  • Options
    #53
    SpaceTime
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,088 ✭✭✭SpaceTime


    corktina wrote: »
    Oh come on JD...did you not see the electric car revolution happening? What do trains run on mostly in this country? Peak Oil is a bogus argument

    You could in theory run Ireland's relatively small fleet of trains on vegetable oil.

    Sadly, we can't seem to harness all the BS and hot air from the political classes though.


  • Options
    #54
    Judgement Day
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,549 ✭✭✭✭Judgement Day


    corktina wrote: »
    Oh come on JD...did you not see the electric car revolution happening?

    Electronic cars or not, mass transit is the future and the fetish with private motoring is doomed in the long run. Cars whether electric or petrol driven are vastly demanding on resources - quite apart from fuel all the oil based plastic components that go into cars, the tyres, the lubricants etc. etc. I could go on but what's the point only one other poster agrees with me. :D


  • Options
    #55
    SpaceTime
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,088 ✭✭✭SpaceTime


    Judgement Day wrote: »
    Electronic cars or not, mass transit is the future and the fetish with private motoring is doomed in the long run. Cars whether electric or petrol driven are vastly demanding on resources - quite apart from fuel all the oil based plastic components that go into cars, the tyres, the lubricants etc. etc. I could go on but what's the point only one other poster agrees with me. :D

    You'd still have to basically abandon almost all housing built after 1950 in Ireland though to make the country public-transport compatible to begin with.

    We've built our housing and other facilities to suit cars and to be totally dependent on them.

    The reality of the situation is that come hell or high water (or lack of oil) we're going to have to continue to make cars work.


  • Options
    #56
    corktina
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,733 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    The only way mass transit can be the future is if you ship everyone into the cities. The car, electric or other wise is the future. Rail is too constrained by it's own infrastructure, and serves a tiny section of the community outside of the main cities., whereas pretty well everyone uses the roads for transport and also for delivery of goods.


  • Options
    #57
    jackofalltrades
    Registered Users Posts: 3,249 ✭✭✭jackofalltrades


    SpaceTime wrote:
    Heuston's not that difficult to reach by Luas, Bus or Taxi.
    It's added time and expense, that I don't have if I take the Bus or use my car.


  • Options
    #58
    corktina
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,733 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    Judgement Day wrote: »
    Electronic cars or not, mass transit is the future and the fetish with private motoring is doomed in the long run. Cars whether electric or petrol driven are vastly demanding on resources - quite apart from fuel all the oil based plastic components that go into cars, the tyres, the lubricants etc. etc. I could go on but what's the point only one other poster agrees with me. :D

    Trains are also dependent on all these things...but then you know that


  • Options
    #59
    Judgement Day
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,549 ✭✭✭✭Judgement Day


    corktina wrote: »
    Trains are also dependent on all these things...but then you know that

    Indeed they are, but the lifespan of the average rail vehicle is massively longer than a car and will transport vastly more people.


  • Options
    #60
    corktina
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,733 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    Quite what mass transit do you see happening on the Nenagh Branch or Limerick/Waterford?


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #61
    corktina
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,733 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    Judgement Day wrote: »
    Indeed they are, but the lifespan of the average rail vehicle is massively longer than a car and will transport vastly more people.

    Really? well I've had cars older than the Mk3s were on withdrawal and had a headache longer than some of the Mk4s were in service.


Advertisement