"Government is prepared for railway closures"

monument · 03-04-2014 12:20am #1

Government is prepared for railway closures, reports the Irish Times: http://ow.ly/vmqDX

Leo's empty threat to Irish Rail workers or something more?

Enda would be harmed by closure Western Rail Corridor; his junior minister would not like some of the other suggestions and Leo wants Dart Underground, which would be a hard sell if he's planning closures of railway lines in the west.

coylemj · 03-04-2014 12:39am

monument wrote: »

Enda would be harmed by closure Western Rail Corridor

How? It only runs from Limerick to Galway, hardly anyone other than pensioners with free travel use it and everyone knows it will never go any further because the people who campaigned for it used wildly optimistic projections of traffic numbers to justify reopening it so why would it affect Enda if it was shut down?

monument · 03-04-2014 12:59am

coylemj wrote: »

How? It only runs from Limerick to Galway, hardly anyone other than pensioners with free travel use it and everyone knows it will never go any further because the people who campaigned for it used wildly optimistic projections of traffic numbers to justify reopening it so why would it affect Enda if it was shut down?

Because of politics.

He is getting a hammering in Mayo at the moment because of job loses and the state of his home town (I'm far from a fan of his but I say wrongly so on both counts). There's a large element of "Dublin gets everything" type of thinking on this side of the country and there's very few who understand the concept that Dublin is actually subsidising many counties.

Added to that, Mayo's TDs and councillors as well as the region's MEPs are nearly all pro-WRC expansion. There's a big push to get the expansion on the agenda ahead of the next capital programme being agreed. West on Track even got a local TD to confirm that it could be part of the next capital programme and it was reported by one local newspaper that this was in line with the minister's view (but they did not report the minister's more recent view that there's not a hope for the WRC).

Jamie2k9 · 03-04-2014 1:13am

The exact thing that comes out of Leo V's mouth comes out another hole to!

He is getting a hammering in Mayo at the moment because of job loses and the state of his home town (I'm far from a fan of his but I say wrongly so on both counts). There's a large element of "Dublin gets everything" type of thinking on this side of the country and there's very few who understand the concept that Dublin is actually subsiding many counties.

Added to that, Mayo's TDs and councillors as well as the region's MEPs are nearly all pro-WRC expansion. There's a big push to get the expansion on the agenda ahead of the next capital programme being agreed. West on Track even got a local TD to confirm that it could be part of the next capital programme and it was reported by one local newspaper that this was in line with the minister's view (but they did not report the minister's more recent view that there's not a hope for the WRC).

Castlebar was hardly booming during the boom was it?

monument · 03-04-2014 1:29am

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Castlebar was hardly booming during the boom was it?

Castlebar's problem is partly down to out-of-control planning in the boom times -- the town centre shopping area shifted away from the main street and into an area west of it with large units and parking disjointed and partly cut off from the main street. It stretched the retail town centre beyond anything sustainable for the town in such a short time. Added to that was the out-of-town retail parks.

The (old) main street isn't on death's door because of inaction now or in the last few years, it's because of the craziness of the boom years.

But politics isn't rational.

MGWR · 03-04-2014 2:13am

monument wrote: »

Government is prepared for railway closures, reports the Irish Times: http://ow.ly/vmqDX

Leo's empty threat to Irish Rail workers or something more?

Enda would be harmed by closure Western Rail Corridor; his junior minister would not like some of the other suggestions and Leo wants Dart Underground, which would be a hard sell if he's planning closures of railway lines in the west.

That's what you get when you have total state control of railways.

“The journey from Galway to Dublin is much faster by bus than it is by train”

...by design. That's sort of what happens when you upgrade the roads but not the rails. Absolute conflict of interest here.

coylemj · 03-04-2014 2:18am

MGWR wrote: »

That's what you get when you have total state control of railways.

Given that it can never make money, who else is capable of running the railway network in Ireland?

MGWR · 03-04-2014 2:29am

coylemj wrote: »

Given that it can never make money, who else is capable of running the railway network in Ireland?

That's untrue. Government can't make money, is what it is. Is the competition to rail making money, yes or no? All those "supertrucks" out on the roads would't make a cent if the government ran them. Thanks to government ownership of railways in Ireland combined with overall government philosophy on transport (favouring roads), the rails are stuck in the latter half of the 20th century.

It's against the nature of railways to not make money. Total private ownership is key; all such railways know how to make money and how to keep customers. A government-owned railway would not allow real competition, in spite of Varadkar's rhetoric.

AngryLips · 03-04-2014 9:09am

It's obviously bluster. What lines could they possibly close? Limerick-Galway? Limerick-Waterford? Ballina? I imagine it would cause quite the local uproar to close any of these and to close anything more would cause national uproar. How come they're not considering a privatised subvention model?

corktina · 03-04-2014 9:18am

They won't close Limerick to Galway. If anything, they'll shut Ennis to Athenry. The rest of that line is doing quite well.

I'd say Limerick to Ballybrophy and Limerick Junction to Waterford will definitely go, but that's no more than some of us on here have been saying for months and years. There are hardly any services on these lines anyway.

foggy_lad · 03-04-2014 10:25am

corktina wrote: »

They won't close Limerick to Galway. If anything, they'll shut Ennis to Athenry. The rest of that line is doing quite well.

I'd say Limerick to Ballybrophy and Limerick Junction to Waterford will definitely go, but that's no more than some of us on here have been saying for months and years. There are hardly any services on these lines anyway.

Like many of the other lines here and in the UK which were closed the ballybrophy to limerick and Limerick junction to Waterford lines have had almost no passengers for a long number of years despite many many attempts to change services and alter times to cater for as many people as possible.

I gave up listening to people taking of how Irish rail have been closing the lines by stealth for years because these people can offer no viable alternatives and seem to offer the same unworkable ideas again and again, simply saying that there should be more services and better trains will not fix these lines! There was at least 3 services each way on Waterford to Limerick junction at one stage and still no passengers. Then times were tweaked to try to improve numbers but services had to be cut to 2 trains each way to avoid needing an extra shift thus making the line much more viable but the passengers did not materialise.

The ballybrophy branch line is just an expensive drain on resources for Irish rail and should have been closed years ago. The Athenry to Ennis section should not have been opened but now that there is proof of its absolute failure it should be closed as soon as possible. There is nothing that can be done to force people to use trains when they have always and will always use their cars because it suits their needs. Even those without a car are cater for much better by bus along the western rail corridor with more frequent and much more flexible services.

Unfortunately closures have been a real possibility for a number of years but at least the savings made will provide some stability and security to the rest of the railway network and staff.

LXFlyer · 03-04-2014 11:28am

Irish Independent article here:
http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/varadkars-plan-to-close-railways-30151393.html

Opinion pieces here (which don't let the government off the hook):
http://www.independent.ie/opinion/columnists/thomas-molloy/leo-should-sell-off-irish-rail-not-strangle-it-with-lack-of-funding-30151231.html

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/the-line-taken-by-politicians-is-to-blame-30151230.html

TheBandicoot · 03-04-2014 11:42am

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/government-is-prepared-for-railway-closures-1.1747787 wrote:

Mr Varadkar cited former CIÉ chairman Todd Andrews as having had the courage to close 12 uneconomic railway lines

Jesus Christ, this is like carefully engineered anathema to rail enthusiasts in this country, and to hear it coming from our Transport Minister..

cgcsb · 03-04-2014 11:46am

monument wrote: »

Leo wants Dart Underground, which would be a hard sell if he's planning closures of railway lines in the west.

Why is that? DART underground would carry hundreds of times more passengers on a slow day than the WRC would carry on it's best day, the two are hardly comparable. I'd agree with you if the WRC was constructed to modern standards and delivered a 21st century service as opposed to the sub aqua, windy, victorian era railway that was forced on IÉ

cgcsb · 03-04-2014 11:59am

foggy_lad wrote: »

I gave up listening to people taking of how Irish rail have been closing the lines by stealth for years because these people can offer no viable alternatives and seem to offer the same unworkable ideas again and again, simply saying that there should be more services and better trains will not fix these lines! There was at least 3 services each way on Waterford to Limerick junction at one stage and still no passengers. Then times were tweaked to try to improve numbers but services had to be cut to 2 trains each way to avoid needing an extra shift thus making the line much more viable but the passengers did not materialise.

The ballybrophy branch line is just an expensive drain on resources for Irish rail and should have been closed years ago. The Athenry to Ennis section should not have been opened but now that there is proof of its absolute failure it should be closed as soon as possible. There is nothing that can be done to force people to use trains when they have always and will always use their cars because it suits their needs. Even those without a car are cater for much better by bus along the western rail corridor with more frequent and much more flexible services.

Unfortunately closures have been a real possibility for a number of years but at least the savings made will provide some stability and security to the rest of the railway network and staff.

Re-Limerick-Waterford. Has it occured to anyone that this service might be more attractive if IÉ was more pro-active about it.
Let's say for example there was a direct service from Limerick to Rosslare Europort via Lmk junct and Waterford city. Let's say trains on this route were timed to meet ferries and Dublin-Cork trains at Lmk junct. Let's say the track was upgraded, more passing loops, better speed and more frequent service. Let's say IÉ actually made contact with the ferry companies with a view to starting a 'sail and rail' package deal.

Now let's say if such a services is still doing poorly then why not use train splitting to minimse costs, for example have a train collecting passengers from Europort then split at Rosslare, one half going towards Dublin and the other half going towards Limerick. Why have IÉ not attempted any of these options to enhance the line's viability?

monument · 03-04-2014 12:45pm

AngryLips wrote: »

Ballina?

It's likely safe for now because of Coca-Cola and, maybe lesser so, forestry and others using the line.

NTA report may not have directly said this but noted that cargo movements were not looked at in full in their report.

Disclosure: It's my home town.

monument · 03-04-2014 1:06pm

cgcsb wrote: »

Why is that? DART underground would carry hundreds of times more passengers on a slow day than the WRC would carry on it's best day, the two are hardly comparable.

Again, politics. Mostly for reasons outlined in my second post above.

bk · 03-04-2014 1:11pm

Wow, I suddenly feel like Leo has been reading my posts here on boards.ie!!!! :

He believed the reasons for the decline in inter-city railways were manifold, but involved people seeking transport that was “cheaper or faster, or both”. He cited the express bus journey between Cork and Dublin as being just 25 minutes longer than the train, but added that the train “only takes you as far as Heuston Station” and was usually considerably more expensive.

I think this says it all and is pretty shocking and damning:

Mr Varadkar said the railways currently absorbed 50 per cent of the State’s public service obligation subsidy but carried less than 15 per cent of public transport passengers.

Really nothing said in this piece is shocking or news to any of us who have been following public transport for a few years now. It is only shocking that a Minister of Transport is finally coming out and telling everyone what the reality is. The only question now is will he follow through with the measures that need to be done to fix it.

mike65 · 03-04-2014 1:13pm

Waterford/Limerick obviously doomed.

mike65 · 03-04-2014 1:16pm

The motorways made the Irish rail routes a much harder sell.

SpaceTime · 03-04-2014 1:22pm

For rail to be an effective proposition you need to have volumes of passengers and dense populations and that's largely why the WRC doesn't really work.
Comparing it to urban transport like the DART doesn't really make any sense.

I would have rather seen heavy investment in the Western Motorway at least connecting Cork to Limerick and Limerick to Galway should have been finished.

In terms of rural transport, subsidising the bus networks in some of the towns in the west would have far more impact than rail as it would actually link communities to their main hub town.

I know plenty of towns that have barely 1 bus a day.

Irish Rail really needed to up its game in terms of service speeds on the Cork-Dublin line in particular, instead it invested in stock that's limited to 100mph and didn't upgrade the rails properly.

The should have lashed money into rails and signalling when it was available. However, politicians like shiny new trains, it's far harder to sell signalling and track to the public.

If you'd Dublin-Cork connected at 125mph (even to Mallow) and Limerick-Limerick Junction at 100mph, you'd have pushed a load of people onto the rail network as it would link the major cities in very good time.
As it stands, it's taking the train up to 2:45 to connect Dublin and Cork which is really not much of an advantage over driving or getting a bus!

Also the Mark 4 fleet was a complete waste of money. They should have bought proper 125mph/200km/h DMUs instead.

foggy_lad · 03-04-2014 1:24pm

cgcsb wrote: »

Re-Limerick-Waterford. Has it occured to anyone that this service might be more attractive if IÉ was more pro-active about it.
Let's say for example there was a direct service from Limerick to Rosslare Europort via Lmk junct and Waterford city. Let's say trains on this route were timed to meet ferries and Dublin-Cork trains at Lmk junct. Let's say the track was upgraded, more passing loops, better speed and more frequent service. Let's say IÉ actually made contact with the ferry companies with a view to starting a 'sail and rail' package deal.

Now let's say if such a services is still doing poorly then why not use train splitting to minimse costs, for example have a train collecting passengers from Europort then split at Rosslare, one half going towards Dublin and the other half going towards Limerick. Why have IÉ not attempted any of these options to enhance the line's viability?

Asking for trains to meet ferries is not a possibility in reality, ferries are often early or late and trains on a branch line can't hang around or staffing costs could be as much as doubled. As for direct trains, we have had all that before, trains went from limerick junction to rosslare, but it was not attracting enough passengers to keep the line open. There was no possibility of direct trains from limerick when there was already a suitable service to limerick junction.

The honest truth of the whole rosslare issue is that foot passenger numbers have not been high enough to sustain a rail service for quite a few decades and we can safely say that the demand that was just about there in the 60s will never be seen again.

roddney · 03-04-2014 1:26pm

cgcsb wrote: »

Re-Limerick-Waterford. Has it occured to anyone that this service might be more attractive if IÉ was more pro-active about it.
Let's say for example there was a direct service from Limerick to Rosslare Europort via Lmk junct and Waterford city. Let's say trains on this route were timed to meet ferries and Dublin-Cork trains at Lmk junct. Let's say the track was upgraded, more passing loops, better speed and more frequent service. Let's say IÉ actually made contact with the ferry companies with a view to starting a 'sail and rail' package deal.

Or they could take a taxi to Shannon Airport and a flight. Seems an easy choice.

If they did go for this option, they'd likely be on a heavily discounted Sail Rail ticket anyway, which isn't going to give Irish Rail much money.

SpaceTime · 03-04-2014 1:30pm

I just hope they don't do something stupid like close the Midleton Line as there's huge potential for passenger growth along that as the economy picks up and it's very much part of Cork's transit and development plan.

roddney · 03-04-2014 1:37pm

monument wrote: »

Government is prepared for railway closures, reports the Irish Times: http://ow.ly/vmqDX

Leo's empty threat to Irish Rail workers or something more?

Enda would be harmed by closure Western Rail Corridor; his junior minister would not like some of the other suggestions and Leo wants Dart Underground, which would be a hard sell if he's planning closures of railway lines in the west.

Brave but ultimately sensible talk. I 100% agree with closing of lowly used lines. Just keep bigger utilised lines open. At the end of the day it's the passengers who are deciding here. Can't keep lines open for enthusiasts. Lines should be preserved for though as cycleways at the very minimum based on past lessons.

Divert funds to investment in commuter rail and light rail in Dublin, Cork, Limerick and Galway instead.

markpb · 03-04-2014 1:50pm

mike65 wrote: »

The motorways made the Irish rail routes a much harder sell.

Or more accurately, the (built at huge expense) motorways made the (barely got any investment) railways a much harder sell). I'm not commenting on the rights and wrongs of that, just pointing out that it's comparing apples and oranges.

amen · 03-04-2014 1:51pm

While agreeing with closing non-performing lines it is not just a simple matter potential passengers using a car over a train. Its often a case of cost or time.

If I was driving from Galway to Ennis or Limerick its not only quicker by car but also cheaper.

If my family and I are driving to Dublin and back (from Galway) its approx 1/3 of the price of the rail ticket.

If they could get the prices down to a reasonable level I would use the train. I used to Live in Dublin and I used the train/buses all the time.

corktina · 03-04-2014 1:54pm

markpb wrote: »

Or more accurately, the (built at huge expense) motorways made the (barely got any investment railways a much harder sell).

or the (used by thousands everyday quicker and cheaper) motorways vs (€103 million sunk without trace and losing millions more annually) rail line?

SpaceTime · 03-04-2014 2:09pm

I think we need to get beyond this "rail vs road" nonsense debate too though.

Rail isn't always better than busses and roads and it certainly isn't appropriate or flexible enough in an area where you've got lots of small communities that are not on the railway line to begin with and face a situation where they've no public transport at all.

The key thing needs to be getting public transport solutions that are appropriate to the needs of any given region and use the best technological solution, not just dogmatically pursue rail.

I'm going to be blunt, and I know I'll get a lot of criticism for this by some, but there are most definitely a large number of people who are a little bit obsessed with railways. Rail is great for certain things - high speed long distance and high capacity urban. Rail in itself isn't a magic solution. Integrated, well designed, appropriate public transport is what's required.

It simply doesn't work where the railway line is trying to serve scattered communities that it doesn't directly connect at all. People will not drive to the railway station, sit on a cold platform waiting for a train and then be locked down to a timetable to get home again - they'll just drive the whole way.

There's also no environmental advantage to having empty diesel trains running on lines. If anything, it might be worse than running busses. I've never seen the CO2 per passenger km calculations for the WRC, but I would doubt that they stack up very well against bus alternatives where you might actually get some passengers on board.

Irish voters made a choice that they wanted to live in scattered communities. They continuously make this choice and elect political parties, TDs and councillors who facilitate scattered development and lose planning. That's a valid choice and I am not going to say that people don't have the right to make that.

However, when you make that choice it means that things like rail services are not an appropriate means of connecting up those scattered communities - good roads are.

It also impacts on things like provision of sewage (i.e. the % of homes connected to septic tanks), water supplies, broadband (it's very difficult and expensive to provide to scattered communities using technologies that work elsewhere) and pretty much everything else, including things like pylons in the countryside. Things have to be wired up!

You cannot really have a European style railway network in Ireland as we do not have a European-style population spread or housing patterns. It's more like small town America.

From what I can see Irish people seem to want continental European urban levels of public services delivered to houses scattered to the four winds.

You can't have both (at least not at reasonable cost).

LXFlyer · 03-04-2014 2:34pm

I think we do however need to take these comments in context. He is not saying that he is minded towards closing railway lines per se.

The Minister is basically laying down the gauntlet to both the unions and the company to sort their differences out at the Labour Court and to get their finances in order. That means doing a deal that delivers the necessary savings to make the railways viable.

There still appears to be a large number of IE staff living with the fantasy that the government will bail them out. He is basically saying they won't in very clear language, and that if a deal isn't done soon, that the prospect of closures will raise their head.

devnull · 03-04-2014 2:41pm

The problem is, a lot of people got used to the boom times, where if ever there was a problem, the answer was to throw money at it rather than sort it out.

"Government is prepared for railway closures"

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