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Cameron to curb welfare entitlements for migrants - Should Ireland follow suit?

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    #242
    greendom
    Registered Users Posts: 16,382 ✭✭✭✭greendom


    WayneMolloy wrote: »
    I do, yeah. Seventy different nationalities on fingal county councils housing list.

    You may think this perfectly fine and dandy - I dont. If I was in country x and found that things were getting tight, id spend another month searching for a better paying position. If I had no joy, id be logging onto aerlingus and booking a flight home. I wouldnt be applying for a freebie, thats for sure.

    That might be ok for some and I'm sure there are plenty that have done that. Some may have lives here though and ties that make that more difficult.

    And how is it a freebie, if you had been paying tax, prsi and usc while you were working and you meet the conditions of your payments while you are looking for another job ? They deserve the same rights as an Irish person while they are doing so. If there are structural problems with the economy/society then everyone should shoulder them equally.


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    #243
    WayneMolloy
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 713 ✭✭✭WayneMolloy


    greendom wrote: »
    That might be ok for some and I'm sure there are plenty that have done that. Some may have lives here though and ties that make that more difficult.

    And how is it a freebie, if you had been paying tax, prsi and usc while you were working and you meet the conditions of your payments while you are looking for another job ? They deserve the same rights as an Irish person while they are doing so. If there are structural problems with the economy/society then everyone should shoulder them equally.

    To qualify for social housing, one must earn under a certain threshold. Thus, they werent earning that much at all, even if they were working. So little paid in the way of tax.

    Btw - after six months of welfare, we are entitled to cut EU citizens off. Why we dont, is anyones guess and why we have a united nations convention on the housing list, is another puzzler.

    If you have built a life here and are able to support yourself - welcome. But just because you have made a few mates, or you like the place, or you have a kid in school - doesnt mean that the state has to provide you with a free gaff.

    We are a sovereign nation, not a charitable organisation. A pretty damn broke sovereign nation. Its time our policies reflected that oft forgotten fact.


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    #244
    ResearchWill
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,111 ✭✭✭ResearchWill


    SWL wrote: »
    I can enjoy immigration in Ireland becasue if I wish I can get an Irish passport.

    More importantly how many Swedes are on the Fingal Housing list? remember there are over 70 nations represented.

    How many Swedes are on the dole?

    How many Swedes are in prision in Ireland?

    I can comment on immigration because I or my fellow country men don't have our hands out seeking help from a State that many foreign nationals including EU couldn't find on a map before turning up here and staying here work or no work.

    The answer is a zero, nada, none

    Can you prove no swede is on the dole or not in prison in Ireland I never said you could not comment I just said it was ironic. I never said you could not have any view you wanted. Yes you have a right to live in Ireland as do all 70 nationalities on that list, because if they had no right to be here they could not be on the list. How many of those 70 nationalities have a right to an Irish passport just like you or they are married to an Irish citizen or the parent of an Irish citizen that's why it's ironic.


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    #245
    greendom
    Registered Users Posts: 16,382 ✭✭✭✭greendom


    WayneMolloy wrote: »
    To qualify for social housing, one must earn under a certain threshold. Thus, they werent earning that much at all, even if they were working. So little paid in the way of tax.

    Btw - after six months of welfare, we are entitled to cut EU citizens off. Why we dont, is anyones guess and why we have a united nations convention on the housing list, is another puzzler.

    If you have built a life here and are able to support yourself - welcome. But just because you have made a few mates, or you like the place, or you have a kid in school - doesnt mean that the state has to provide you with a free gaff.

    We are a sovereign nation, not a charitable organisation. A pretty damn broke sovereign nation. Its time our policies reflected that oft forgotten fact.

    A damn broke soverign nation indeed. But it wasn't the immigrants who made it so - why should they be the ones made to pay for the mistakes of others ?


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    #246
    WayneMolloy
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 713 ✭✭✭WayneMolloy


    greendom wrote: »
    A damn broke soverign nation indeed. But it wasn't the immigrants who made it so - why should they be the ones made to pay for the mistakes of others ?

    I never said they were. I suggested that if they want to live here, then they should pay their own way and not expect the state to subsidise them. If they cant afford to live here and are a burden on the state, then its time to say bonvage.

    Would you feel comfortable living in social housing in a foreign country? Not to mention welfare payments and all the rest?

    I certainly wouldnt. Id be too ashamed.


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    #247
    WayneMolloy
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 713 ✭✭✭WayneMolloy


    ResearchWill wrote: »
    Can you prove no swede is on the dole or not in prison in Ireland I never said you could not comment I just said it was ironic. I never said you could not have any view you wanted. Yes you have a right to live in Ireland as do all 70 nationalities on that list, because if they had no right to be here they could not be on the list. How many of those 70 nationalities have a right to an Irish passport just like you or they are married to an Irish citizen or the parent of an Irish citizen that's why it's ironic.

    See the link in my opening piece. The nordic countries citizens have the lowest rate of unemployment in Ireland. You might find a handful on the dole, at best.


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    #248
    greendom
    Registered Users Posts: 16,382 ✭✭✭✭greendom


    WayneMolloy wrote: »
    I never said they were. I suggested that if they want to live here, then they should pay their own way and not expect the state to subsidise them. If they cant afford to live here and are a burden on the state, then its time to say bonvage.

    Would you feel comfortable living in social housing in a foreign country? Not to mention welfare payments and all the rest?

    I certainly wouldnt. Id be too ashamed.

    If the alternative was to put my family on the breadline then of course I would. I wouldn't be particularly happy about it and I would do all I could to get back to work but I wouldn't let my embarrassment cause undue suffering to my family. Exactly the same as I would do in my home country (England btw). And yes maybe I would feel a little ashamed about it. That shame would be no smaller or greater in my home country or a foreign one.


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    #249
    WayneMolloy
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 713 ✭✭✭WayneMolloy


    greendom wrote: »
    If the alternative was to put my family on the breadline then of course I would. I wouldn't be particularly happy about it and I would do all I could to get back to work but I wouldn't let my embarrassment cause undue suffering to my family. Exactly the same as I would do in my home country (England btw). And yes maybe I would feel a little ashamed about it. That shame would be no smaller or greater in my home country or a foreign one.

    Maybe they should ensure that they are financially secure in their new country before starting a family. A bit reckless to start one in such circumstances and its not exactly the Irish states responsibility to provide non citizens with social housing in such situations.

    Do you honestly not think its a tad bit mad that there are 70 different nationalities queuing up for a free gaff in north county Dublin?


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    #250
    greendom
    Registered Users Posts: 16,382 ✭✭✭✭greendom


    WayneMolloy wrote: »
    Maybe they should ensure that they are financially secure in their new country before starting a family. A bit reckless to start one in such circumstances and its not exactly the Irish states responsibility to provide non citizens with social housing in such situations.

    Do you honestly not think its a tad bit mad that there are 70 different nationalities queuing up for a free gaff in north county Dublin?

    Like a lot of Irish people, I imagine, they were getting by until the economic crisis hit. Lots of people out there who thought they were financially secure until they lost their jobs and were unable to find another one. The 70 nationality thing has absolutely no relevance to me. I don't see what they have done to deserve deportation. If anyone deserves that fate it's the bankers and politicians who have got us into this mess.


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    #251
    Galwayguy35
    Registered Users Posts: 16,415 ✭✭✭✭Galwayguy35


    It's shocking to learn that there are over 30,000 illegals in this country, I hadn't realised the problem was that bad.

    For too long Ireland was seen as a "soft mark" and this is the result we are left with.

    Truth be told the authorities probably have no idea where these people are or even how to find them, compare this with say Australia which has an active task force whose sole job is to root out illegals and send them on their way.

    Noone has any problem with EU nationals coming here to work and earn a living (although I'm not sure why they are still coming over seeing as there are no jobs) but we need to get tough on illegals and stop making half hearted attempts to sort this problem out.


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    #252
    deisedave
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,165 ✭✭✭deisedave


    Praetorian Saighdiuir wrote: »
    Jesus that's a bit much.....you have no opinion on the topic? You just here to abuse posters?

    Well I would like to read a thread without people going off topic all the time. I don't really have an opinion because I think whether or not a migrant should get welfare should be decided on an individual basis rather than a blanket decision.


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    #253
    Push Pop
    Closed Accounts Posts: 262 ✭✭Push Pop


    What I'd like to know is where does Ireland draw the line in relation to its social welfare system when it comes to other EU countries, non EU and new accession EU states.
    I have to wonder do the Lefists think the current system is fine and everyone who opposes it should shut up and just pay out.
    Say for instance there are 100k immigrants from a certain EU country and 20-25% are on government assistance. What if that number increases to 300k and you have the same unemployment rate, is it still ok?
    Where is the point at which the madness has to stop?
    The damage has been done well before our government put in the habitual residency condition and anchor baby trick was dealt with.
    I really do wonder do people realise the significance of a huge government spending deficit, huge government debt as a % of GDP and its future effect on the country. I fully realise that our deficit is vastly of our own fault but we need to deal with our social welfare problem and come up with solutions and fast.


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    #254
    KuriousOranj
    Registered Users Posts: 66 ✭✭KuriousOranj


    Gee_G wrote: »
    How Does it not inhibit the sellers jobseeking? And how are they entitled to claim jobseekers benefit/allowance just because they are not making substantial money? sure the majority of the population of Ireland are no longer making substantial money!
    I'm not being smart by the way, just wondering what sort of explanation the Social would give!

    Because the small number of the vendors at the time I worked there,who were actually claiming benefit,would only be selling the magazine 1 or 2 days a week for a few hours at a time.Didn't impede them handing out CV's or replying to job adverts online,and didn't intefere with them attending interviews either.DSW had no problems with this.If they had, the Big Issue would not still be in existence in this country,and it was founded in the early 1990's.

    You are welcome to sell the magazine for a few days and see what sort of money you make!


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    #255
    token101
    Registered Users Posts: 3,050 ✭✭✭token101


    greendom wrote: »
    Like a lot of Irish people, I imagine, they were getting by until the economic crisis hit. Lots of people out there who thought they were financially secure until they lost their jobs and were unable to find another one. The 70 nationality thing has absolutely no relevance to me. I don't see what they have done to deserve deportation. If anyone deserves that fate it's the bankers and politicians who have got us into this mess.

    Deporting people is nonsense, but I certainly would not prepared to fund indefinite welfare for economic migrants like Ireland seems to do with Irish citizens and I really couldn't care less if they have made lives there or not. Benefits should be paid out if you've worked here for a set time, absolutely. You've paid for that. But welfare, as in the indefinite type given to people who can't get work for years? Absolutely not.

    You work in Australia and you get 30 days to leave the country if you can't find employment. Whilst I think that's a bit too harsh, I certainly wouldn't be expecting the Aussie taxpayer to fund me if I lost my job. At least not until the day I'm holding an Aussie passport where I could actually call myself a citizen.


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    #256
    WayneMolloy
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 713 ✭✭✭WayneMolloy


    This lads after being caught defrauding the social twice. His punishment? Deportation? Community work? Noep. Just pay it back.

    http://www.independent.ie/regionals/kerryman/news/lithuanian-bar-worker-accused-of-milking-social-welfare-system-29157839.html

    Tip of the iceberg.


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    #257
    WayneMolloy
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 713 ✭✭✭WayneMolloy


    token101 wrote: »
    Deporting people is nonsense, but I certainly would not prepared to fund indefinite welfare for economic migrants like Ireland seems to do with Irish citizens and I really couldn't care less if they have made lives there or not. Benefits should be paid out if you've worked here for a set time, absolutely. You've paid for that. But welfare, as in the indefinite type given to people who can't get work for years? Absolutely not.

    You work in Australia and you get 30 days to leave the country if you can't find employment. Whilst I think that's a bit too harsh, I certainly wouldn't be expecting the Aussie taxpayer to fund me if I lost my job. At least not until the day I'm holding an Aussie passport where I could actually call myself a citizen.

    Why is deporting people nonsense? It seems that the Australians have the right idea.


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    #258
    WayneMolloy
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 713 ✭✭✭WayneMolloy


    greendom wrote: »
    Like a lot of Irish people, I imagine, they were getting by until the economic crisis hit. Lots of people out there who thought they were financially secure until they lost their jobs and were unable to find another one. The 70 nationality thing has absolutely no relevance to me. I don't see what they have done to deserve deportation..

    Becoming a burden on the state warrants repatriation imho.

    If you cannot pay your way in a state you migrate to, either look for a higher paying position or relocate back to your country of origin. This nation is as broke as a joke and we can no longer afford acts of charity such as housing 70 different nationalities in one small enclave of Dublin.

    If large numbers of Irish emigrants were on the mooch in Australia and Canada, I would say the exact same thing.


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    #259
    Death and Taxes
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,775 ✭✭✭Death and Taxes


    WayneMolloy wrote: »
    Becoming a burden on the state warrants repatriation imho.

    If you cannot pay your way in a state you migrate to, either look for a higher paying position or relocate back to your country of origin. This nation is as broke as a joke and we can no longer afford acts of charity such as housing 70 different nationalities in one small enclave of Dublin.

    If large numbers of Irish emigrants were on the mooch in Australia and Canada, I would say the exact same thing.

    Thankfully your inane racist rantings mean nothing, EU citizens cannot be deported/repatriated because they have lost their jobs.
    Personally inward migration has been broadly speaking one of the best things that ever happened to Ireland and has made it a more diverse , open minded , and modern society. Long may that last.


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    #260
    Death and Taxes
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,775 ✭✭✭Death and Taxes


    WayneMolloy wrote: »
    This lads after being caught defrauding the social twice. His punishment? Deportation? Community work? Noep. Just pay it back.

    http://www.independent.ie/regionals/kerryman/news/lithuanian-bar-worker-accused-of-milking-social-welfare-system-29157839.html

    Tip of the iceberg.

    nothing compared to what Irish citizen do, this week alone two in court for massive welfare scams.


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    #261
    WayneMolloy
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 713 ✭✭✭WayneMolloy


    WileyCoyote wrote: »
    nothing compared to what Irish citizen do, this week alone two in court for massive welfare scams.

    That makes it all gravy so.


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    #262
    Death and Taxes
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,775 ✭✭✭Death and Taxes


    WayneMolloy wrote: »
    I dont tolerate freeloaders.

    What quango are you aligned to?

    If your stated location is correct then you are looking to be a freeloader (queuing up outside Fingal housing office) shame on you!


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    #263
    WayneMolloy
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 713 ✭✭✭WayneMolloy


    WileyCoyote wrote: »
    Thankfully your inane racist rantings mean nothing, EU citizens cannot be deported/repatriated because they have lost their jobs.
    Personally inward migration has been broadly speaking one of the best things that ever happened to Ireland and has made it a more diverse , open minded , and modern society. Long may that last.

    You are just repeating randon rhetoric, buddy.

    We are fully entitle to deport anyone, EU citizen or no, if they become an unnecessary burden on the state - http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/site/en/oj/2004/l_158/l_15820040430en00770123.pdf


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    #264
    Death and Taxes
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,775 ✭✭✭Death and Taxes


    WayneMolloy wrote: »
    You are just repeating randon rhetoric, buddy.

    We are fully entitle to deport anyone, EU citizen or no, if they become an unnecessary burden on the state - http://eur-lex.europa.eu/LexUriServ/site/en/oj/2004/l_158/l_15820040430en00770123.pdf

    I suggest you re read that documend dear boy, as usual you are wrong, but sure there is nothing new there.


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    #265
    WayneMolloy
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 713 ✭✭✭WayneMolloy


    WileyCoyote wrote: »
    I suggest you re read that documend dear boy, as usual you are wrong, but sure there is nothing new there.

    Page 5/47 part (10).

    Page 8/47 part (21).


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    #266
    WayneMolloy
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 713 ✭✭✭WayneMolloy


    This clears it up pretty succinctly - http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7079709.stm

    So yes, we are perfectly entitled to deport EU citizens who become a burden on the state.


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    #267
    MAR86
    Registered Users Posts: 59 ✭✭MAR86


    fozz10 wrote: »
    make all there social welfare payment rates relevant to their native country. cant be fairer then that.

    Then I should be paying tax at my native country's rates! That would only be fair!


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    #268
    WayneMolloy
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 713 ✭✭✭WayneMolloy


    MAR86 wrote: »
    Then I should be paying tax at my native country's rates! That would only be fair!

    Does your country provide free gaffs and welfare benefits for newcomers?

    Does it have 70 different nationalities on one smaller areas housing list?


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    #269
    homerjay2005
    Registered Users Posts: 29,346 ✭✭✭✭homerjay2005


    finally looks like people are beginning to be caught and convicted with social welfare fraud, its great to see!


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    #270
    WayneMolloy
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 713 ✭✭✭WayneMolloy


    WileyCoyote wrote: »
    If your stated location is correct then you are looking to be a freeloader (queuing up outside Fingal housing office) shame on you!

    What can I say? You waxing lyrical about how great the place is, has me sold. I hope to be nationality number 71 on the list.

    Il learn to do a bit of samba or something like that and enrich you all, culturally, with my presence.


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    #271
    youtube!
    Registered Users Posts: 1,265 ✭✭✭youtube!


    As a matter of interest if for example I as an Irish citizen decide to emigrate to another EU country,or even more specifically another country with Euro as the currency, let's say Germany as a perfect example, if I work there for a year or two and then become unemployed am I entitled to

    a) claim JB (or equivalent) and after one year claim

    b) A medical card or equivalent

    c) The equivalent of JA

    d) be eligible for a house

    e) to be entitled to do all this on a permanent basis as long as I need to?

    These are not loaded questions because I honestly don't know the answers can someone please enlighten me?


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