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Punting - why value is the key

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  • 09-01-2013 10:35pm
    #1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,669 ✭✭✭


    There was a discussion on the Grandouet thread about the fundamental aspect of betting, that was off topic and I think a few posters get annoyed when threads are derailed into side shows. Therefore I decided to start a thread of it's own. First up I'll have a stab at explaining why you cannot make money in the long run unless you bet at prices that under estimate the chances of your selection winning.

    *apologises if I go a bit abstract and/or into a bit too much detail. Feel free to question anything I write

    First a bit of house keeping

    I will use the shorthand P(X) to represent the probability of event X happening eg if I toss a coin P(H) = the probability the coin lands on heads

    For any numerical examples I will use the example of tossing a "fair" coin. By "fair" I mean P(H) = P(T) = 50%. For the more pedantic we can either assume that the probability of it landing on it's side is zero, or if you like, given that it lands on it's side all bets are void with stakes returned

    For illustration of some of the points I will assume I have found a bookmaker that is betting on the coin toss but has incorrectly priced his market. I assume the following;

    1. He bets 4/6 Tails.
    2. He bets 11/10 Heads

    Lastly I assume that each coin toss is independent of the last, i.e. knowing the result of the last coin toss gives me no further information about the outcome of the next coin toss

    Concept 1: Expected Value

    The expected value (EV) represents the weighted average of all possible values that a variable can take

    If we take the coin toss market our friendly bookmaker has priced. If I place a €1 bet on heads at 11/10 my cashflow is as follows;

    1. I will win €1.10 with probability 50%
    2. I will lose €1 with probability 50%

    From our definition of expected value we see this bet has positive expected value, or +EV. I will call this a "good" bet

    +1.1*0.5 - 1*0.5 = 0.05

    This means that if I place a large number of bets at 11/10 I will can expect to win 50% of my bets and lose the other 50%. However the profit on the winning bets more than cancel the losses on the the losing bets. So I play this market over and over again I should come out in front to the tune of 5% of my turnover.

    If I place a €1 bet on tails at 4/6 my cashflow is as follows;

    1. I will win €0.67 with probability 50%
    2. I will lose €1 with probability 50%

    From our definition of expected value we see this bet has negative expected value, or -EV. I will call this a "bad" bet

    +0.67*0.5 - 1*0.5 = -0.1667

    This means that if I place a large number of bets at 4/6 I can still expect to win 50% of my bets and lose the other 50%. However the profit on the winning bets is not enough cancel the losses on the the losing bets. So I play this market over and over again I should lose, to tune of 16.67% of my turnover.

    So we should only make "good" bets

    Concept 2: Variance

    So we should only place "good" bets. However can we still lose money? Unfortunately the answer is Yes. Shrewd punters can still lose money over a finite series of bets and poor gamblers can can still win money over a finite series of bets due to variance

    If we place only 1 bet we will lose money if tails comes up and will win if heads comes up. So our actual P&L will be either +€1.10 or -€1. Neither is equal to the EV mentioned above because of statistical variation or variance. So we win or lose money with probability 50%. Doesn't sound as good now does it?

    However lets assume we place 10 bets on this market. We will win money if 5 or more heads come up. We will lose money if 4 or less heads come up. These probabilities can be evaluated using what is called a binomial distribution. I won't go into this but excel has a function to calculate these probabilities and there are numerous online calculators

    If we place 10 bets we will win money with probability 62.3%. Better but not all that great you may think

    If we place 100 bets we win if 48 or more coin tosses come up heads. Therefore the probability we win money (again from a binomial distribution) is 69.1%

    If we place 100 bets we win if 477 or more coin tosses come up heads. Therefore the probability we win money (again from a binomial distribution) is 93.1%

    What is happening is that the more "good" bets we place the higher the probability we win money overall. And also the more good bets we place the closer our profit on turnover gets to our EV

    This leads us onto the fundamental mathematical theorem underlying this explanation.

    Concept 3: The Law Of Large Numbers

    The law of large numbers says, in lay mans terms, that the larger the number of "good" bets we place the closer and closer our profit on turnover will get to our EV (5% in the coin toss example)

    If we could place an infinite number of bets we would be certain to achieve our EV (as a % of turnover), no more no less. i.e. in the coin toss example if we could place an infinite number of bets at 11/10 the probability we would win 5% on turnover is 1.

    A simulated example

    I simulated 160,000 coin tosses in excel (using the Rand() function) and calculated the profit on turnover. The attached graph shows that our profit on turnover (the purple/blue line) gets closer and closer to 5% (the grey line) as the number of coin tosses, and bets get larger. In this case we actually have a bad run of luck over the first quarter or so tosses but these losses even out over the long run. If we could simulate an infinite number of coin tosses the law of large numbers ensures that we would achieve a profit of 5% on turnover

    FWIW I got 50.03% simulated tails and 49.97% simulated heads

    Horse races aren't coin tosses!

    That's all well and good, in the situation described above we know explicitly P(H) and P(T) before we place our bets. This is not the case we horse racing. Before a race we can never know the probability a horse will win a race with more than 1 runner with certainty. This is where knowledge of form, going, distances etc come in. We make an implicit estimation of the chances our horse wins, if the bookmaker offers better odds we think we should be getting we bet. There are a few metrics you can use to keep track of your ability top price up the horses you are backing. I keep track of P&L, Return on turnover, price taken v Betfair SP etc etc

    I calculated the probabilities above very quickly so may have made a few small numerical error but the underlying theory is sound. Any queries fire away!

    *if anyone is interested, for the coin toss example since the set up and probabilities are the same for each coin toss the weak law of large numbers suffices. In the case of betting on sports where each event and probabilities is different we must apply a more complicated form called Kolmogorov's Strong Law of Large Numbers


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Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,669 ✭✭✭Colonel Sanders


    I tried to post an excel spreadsheet with the results and graph of the above simulations but it exceeds the max size of an xls file

    Is there a way I can post a graph???


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,817 ✭✭✭ste2010


    I tried to post an excel spreadsheet with the results and graph of the above simulations but it exceeds the max size of an xls file

    Is there a way I can post a graph???
    Can you zip it or make it public on skydrive and post the link


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,669 ✭✭✭Colonel Sanders


    ste2010 wrote: »
    Can you zip it or make it public on skydrive and post the link

    I'll have a look at that or the likes of google docs later, I'm watching the Darts!

    If worst comes to the worst I'll print screen and copy it into a Word Doc that hopefully won't be too big!!


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,408 ✭✭✭ft9


    Off to the gambling forum with ye


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,669 ✭✭✭Colonel Sanders


    ft9 wrote: »
    Off to the gambling forum with ye

    I'm hoping the mods will be ok leaving it here

    A few threads get derailed talking about value, they could be re-routed to here


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,669 ✭✭✭Colonel Sanders


    Shrewd punters can still lose money over a finite series of bets and poor gamblers can can still win money over a finite series of bets due to variance

    A good example is the lotto (from a pure gambling point of view), many people become millionaires playing it but only around 50% of the money bet is paid out as prizes.

    Paying out 50% is like betting into a 200% over round :eek:


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,408 ✭✭✭ft9


    I'm hoping the mods will be ok leaving it here

    A few threads get derailed talking about value, they could be re-routed to here

    I'm only messing with ya, best of luck with it, just not my thing.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,013 ✭✭✭Hulk Hands


    Anyone playing Roulette or Slots as a serious way to make money instantly lose my respect because of this. Actually, anyone playing them at all really.

    Hate to be nitpicking as there was clearly effort put into that post, but it's complete and utter common sense. The majority of readers here already know all that, while the rest are either too stupid to grasp the concept or too weak of mind to stop punting who they think will win regardless of price. i.e you won't be changing too many people's outlooks


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,669 ✭✭✭Colonel Sanders


    Hulk Hands wrote: »
    Hate to be nitpicking as there was clearly effort put into that post, but it's complete and utter common sense.

    Agreed, not everyone agrees however
    Hulk Hands wrote: »
    The majority of readers here already know all that, while the rest are either too stupid to grasp the concept or too weak of mind to stop punting who they think will win regardless of price. i.e you won't be changing too many people's outlooks

    Probably not to be fair, but as I said a lot of threads get side tracked with value discussions etc. They can be directed here and leave the other threads for the topic at hand


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,013 ✭✭✭Hulk Hands


    Agreed, not everyone agrees however



    Probably not to be fair, but as I said a lot of threads get side tracked with value discussions etc. They can be directed here and leave the other threads for the topic at hand

    Sorry Colonel, I actually hadn't seen the Grandoeut thread

    WOW.......


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  • Registered Users Posts: 7,838 ✭✭✭Nulty


    Col you mad bastard :D


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,028 ✭✭✭BQQ


    Ok, I studied statistics once upon a time, so I have no issue with the maths.

    However, just because you think you're getting value doesn't mean you are.
    You may just be reading the form badly.

    So, if you thought a given horse had a 12.5% chance of winning you would back it at 8/1 and you wouldn't at 6/1, but if your reading of the form was wrong and the horse had a true chance of 5%, you would obviously lose in the long run even though you're only backing what you believe are value bets.

    Before the Grandouet thread became the bash Huntley thread, he tried to make the point that value is subjective and therefore a correct analysis of the form is more important than value since your idea of value is derived from your analysis of the form.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,669 ✭✭✭Colonel Sanders


    BQQ wrote: »
    However, just because you think you're getting value doesn't mean you are.

    You may just be reading the form badly.

    Couldn't agree more, and nowhere have I, or anyone else that I can see, have said otherwise. As I posted there are a few metrics you can track to see if you are getting it right

    Powers often have huge priced specials on soccer, I am not the biggest soccer fan. I price then at Betfair lay prices + an additional 10%. If they are bigger than that I back them. I keep track of:

    1. The price Powers offered
    2. The price implied by Betfair lay prices
    3. EV assuming 2 is correct
    4. P&L assuming you have their max on and also you bet them all to win €200 (€200 as the lowest price I've ever seen offered is evs, and the max bet is usually €200)
    BQQ wrote: »
    Before the Grandouet thread became the bash Huntley thread, he tried to make the point that value is subjective and therefore a correct analysis of the form is more important than value since your idea of value is derived from your analysis of the form.

    Here's what he said that I responded to:
    You can just as easily lose in the long term by selecting overpriced horses.

    Not true
    Value has no importance if you are consistently picking losers. There is an array of evidence to support that
    picking winning selections is the most fundamental aspect of successful gambling, not value as you seem to think.
    There is no mathematical fact which states that value is the most fundamental aspect to successful gambling.

    He had no evidence forthcoming, it also violates the law of large numbers
    No problem with arrogance provided it is backed up.

    He hasn't backed up his arrogance on this topic, he has dug a bigger hole
    Do you understand the idiocy in stating that value is the most important aspect of successful gambling? The only value that counts is a winning selection.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,669 ✭✭✭Colonel Sanders


    Response to this post, the Grandouet thread isn't the place
    Huntley wrote: »
    What is the marker to decide whether the bookie is wrong? The only marker is the selection winning

    P&L, RoI, strike rates, actual versus expected results over a long period of time
    Huntley wrote: »
    It is all subjective, you may think that you are backing horses which are 'value', it may not be to someone else.

    I agree and have said so before
    Huntley wrote: »
    I determine value by the selection that is most likely to win.

    you are wrong to do so, in my coin toss example both outcomes are equally as likely to occur. Only one of the potential bets being offered is value. This is the case win or lose. You really seem to have a problem grasping this concept, you can get good value and lose, you can get poor value and win over the short term
    Huntley wrote: »
    If a horses price collapses from 20's to 2's and loses does that mean the price is value?

    Not necessarily
    Huntley wrote: »
    What value is there in a losing selection? In my opinion, there is none.

    Your opinion (on this topic) isn't worth the virtual paper it's written on
    Huntley wrote: »
    In contrast to that, if the price collapses from 20's to 2's and the horse wins does that mean that the winning price wasn't value?

    It may or may not
    Huntley wrote: »
    any winning selection is a value bet

    No it isn't
    Huntley wrote: »
    My views aren't as outrageous as much as the clueless masses who descended yesterday hoped

    Yes they are
    Huntley wrote: »
    there is plenty of credibility behind my thinking

    Yet you have not presented any. Trust me, there is none
    Huntley wrote: »
    I don't post here to come across self righteous

    You do however, intended or not
    Huntley wrote: »
    I do it to provide different angles and analysis on races

    Tbh I think you do this pretty well
    Huntley wrote: »
    I can be very dismissive of idiotic opinions, which I most certainly am not accustomed to myself.

    Read your posts on the Grandouet thread, that will acquaint you somewhat
    Huntley wrote: »
    it is no surprise that the piss poor analysis in general is synonymous with the external views about this forum.

    Some of your comments on the Grandouet thread are some of the worst, ill thought out musings I have ever come across. As is your refusal to admit you're wrong.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,669 ✭✭✭Colonel Sanders


    A simulated example

    I simulated 160,000 coin tosses in excel (using the Rand() function) and calculated the profit on turnover. The attached graph shows that our profit on turnover (the purple/blue line) gets closer and closer to 5% (the grey line) as the number of coin tosses, and bets get larger. In this case we actually have a bad run of luck over the first quarter or so tosses but these losses even out over the long run. If we could simulate an infinite number of coin tosses the law of large numbers ensures that we would achieve a profit of 5% on turnover

    FWIW I got 50.03% simulated tails and 49.97% simulated heads

    I re-did this experiment. I simulated 500,000 coin tosses in excel. Due to the fact there is a maximum xls size you can post to boards and a graph can have a max of 32,000 data points on a graph I had to summarise the results.

    The sheet "Simulations", each entry is the cumulative RoI figure calculated at intervals of 500 simulations. The graph shows the simulated RoI (noisy blue line) versus the 5% EV (straight line). While the results move up and down a good bit they approach 5% as the number of simulations increase


  • Registered Users Posts: 15,775 ✭✭✭✭Slattsy


    I love excel, probably one of the best inventions ever.


  • Posts: 23,339 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    A very decent thread and the OP is on the ball. In my opinion the bookies prices on each horse running are typically 15% less than what would be required for a consistent level stakes punter to break even longterm.

    If you accept that the rationale that your happy to back a horse regardless of price if you think it will win makes losing money inevitable unless you are typically backing ten or so horse a year, with a sample size that small it is conceptually likely to put a very decent strike rate together and come put on top :) If you back 10 to 15 horses a day in the bookies regularly the lack of value will sting you which is why there are so many bookies about :)

    I used to back horse that were in my mind value, I had a crude enough way to calculate what acceptable value was but I only went looking at the prices after detailed study of the form so it was very time consuming yet admittedly moderately successful.

    People will have varying views on what value is, a price could be considered value if it's not as short as you think the market should have it, even if its still less than the true odds reflection. Others would only consider a price value when the odds available are in their mind greater than what they reckon the true odds of the horse winning are.

    Of course one has to accept that trying to accurately reflect the likelyhood of a horse (not to mention a number of horses on one race) performing to past levels or to the trainers expectations on the day is very difficult, hence the reason most prices aren't value, the bookies build in a level of fat to ensure they won't be caught out too often :)

    Unfortunately, to me it seems much easier to make money laying horse :(

    Not as much fun and the buzz of a winner eclipses the laying experience, I still back quite a few horses for "fun", despite them not being value most of the time :)


  • Posts: 23,339 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    I've only just read beyond the op now, wouldn't have bothered posting tbh if I had read on initially. Very sour tone to it.


  • Posts: 23,339 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    .................







    He had no evidence forthcoming, it also violates the law of large numbers ............

    You make repeated reference to the law of large numbers.....

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=82648984&postcount=198
    RoverJames wrote: »
    Define what a large number is CS.
    If you actually know what you are talking about you have to concede that a selective punter over 50 years may well come no where near backing enough horses for the total to be considered a large number.


    It's quite clear to me that a selective punter who interprets form etc in a manner that results in a high strike rate can punt away happily for his lifetime not at all being bothered about the law of large numbers :)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,564 ✭✭✭kiers47


    RoverJames wrote: »

    You make repeated reference to the law of large numbers.....

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=82648984&postcount=198




    It's quite clear to me that a selective punter who interprets form etc in a manner that results in a high strike rate can punt away happily for his lifetime not at all being bothered about the law of large numbers :)

    While I understand what you are saying. What do you consider a respectable strike rate? It surely depends on average prices.

    Lets say for instance
    punter A has a 80% strike rate but he only bets on 1/10 shots or lower.
    Punter B has a 10% strike rate but only bets on 16/1 + shots.

    Who is the better punter? It's fairly easy to see!!


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,232 ✭✭✭meriwether


    Colonel, I remember reading about this theory before in Dave Nevisons book.

    His approach is to price the race independently, and he identifies value as being in place if a bookmekrs price is 15% or more larger than his own opinion of the horses price.

    However, and this throws me a bit, he bets on every horse which meets this criterion. He bets on horses he logically doesn't think will win (he prices them the rag 66/1 and Betfar offers 100/1).

    I find that bizarre.


  • Posts: 23,339 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    kiers47 wrote: »
    While I understand what you are saying. What do you consider a respectable strike rate? It surely depends on average prices.

    Lets say for instance
    punter A has a 80% strike rate but he only bets on 1/10 shots or lower.
    Punter B has a 10% strike rate but only bets on 16/1 + shots.

    Who is the better punter? It's fairly easy to see!!

    My point is that the law of ilarge numbers doesn't apply :)
    Instead of decent strikerate I should have said decent ROI, I was referring to a selective punter who would be in profit.


  • Posts: 23,339 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    meriwether wrote: »
    Colonel, I remember reading about this theory before in Dave Nevisons book.

    His approach is to price the race independently, and he identifies value as being in place if a bookmekrs price is 15% or more larger than his own opinion of the horses price.

    However, and this throws me a bit, he bets on every horse which meets this criterion. He bets on horses he logically doesn't think will win (he prices them the rag 66/1 and Betfar offers 100/1).

    I find that bizarre.

    I often lay horses I think will win if the price is imo too short.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,669 ✭✭✭Colonel Sanders


    RoverJames wrote: »
    Define what a large number is CS.

    In most situations you can't definitively say what a large number is. If you make some assumptions on the type of bets you play, how much edge you have you can derive the minimum number of bets necessary such that the probability you win is a certain percentage. I the coin toss example you could use the normal approximation of the binomial distribution

    The law of large numbers does not guarantee profit, it formally proves that the more "good" bets you place the more likely you are to get a profit on turnover. The more "bad" bets you place the more likely you are to lose. In the case you could place an infinite number of bets it states a "good" punter will win money with probability 1, a "bad" punter will lose money with probability 1
    RoverJames wrote: »
    If you actually know what you are talking about you have to concede that a selective punter over 50 years may well come no where near backing enough horses for the total to be considered a large number.

    I stated in the OP that a "good" punter can lose money and a "bad" punter can win money (the lotto is an excellent example, some people do become millionaires but playing is an irrational betting strategy)

    What I sought to show in the OP was that the key to gambling was value (i.e. betting at prices that under estimate your selections chance) and not merely identifying the most likely winner


  • Posts: 23,339 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    In most situations you can't definitively say what a large number is.............

    An approximation would do :)

    For example, imo, 15 bets a year over 50 years would be 750 bets, not a large number.

    4000 bets a year over 5 years, 20,000 bets, a large number :)

    As pointed out value is really quite subjective, more often than not when most self proclaimed good punters reckon they're getting value they're quite likely not :) Anyone can claim their bets are value, only a few can consistently pick enough winners to maintain a positive ROI :)

    Personally as I've mentioned a few times I lay quite a lot of horses, I back comparatively few, I understand the concept of betting value perfectly.

    Your application of mathematical theory to this subject seems to be quite case non specific as you seem to make your argument on the rules of large numbers which may or may not be at all relevant.

    Calling a spade a spade you only started the thread to undermine another posters views and opinions :)


  • Registered Users Posts: 15,775 ✭✭✭✭Slattsy


    You do like a smiley face RJ.


  • Posts: 23,339 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Slattsy wrote: »
    You do like a smiley face RJ.

    I'm not meaning to get controvercial or stir sh1t you see so I reckon it's better to lash in a few of them lads to keep the tone cordial, the ole typed words on a screen can be easily misinterpreted.

    From what I've gathered since first posting in this thread Huntley made comments along the lines of he isn't bothered by value in bets, the law of large numbers obviously disagrees with this but the example given here isn't overly apt due to the odds reflecting the actual probability, betting isn't like that and no one knows the real probability, imo it can't be quantified but we do know the bookies will try and take 10 to 15% (ish) from the "fair" odds :)

    Imo a selective punter who consistently picks enough winners can bet away happily ignoring value etc as his ROI (buoyed by the edge he has, ie picking more winners than most relative to losers) is sufficient to absorb the bookies margin.

    A few can do this, a couple have successfully done so in the form of logs on boards.ie, hard to ignore evidence really imo.


    I can see how the selective punter can ignore the "value" concept as they've bought into the bookies getting their margin.

    I can't actually fathom how someone can apply the law of large numbers to punting without conceding it may well be non applicable in some cases.

    All anyone has to do it take 1000s of SPs (and results of course) within a range and if the sample size is large enough you can see that backing them all for level stakes will result in a loss of 10 to 15% ish of your outlay, take smaller sample sizes and there'll be variation in the results.

    Repeat for other SP ranges and the same will show, the shorter the SP the smaller the sample size required.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,669 ✭✭✭Colonel Sanders


    RoverJames wrote: »

    Your application of mathematical theory to this subject seems to be quite case non specific as you seem to make your argument on the rules of large numbers which may or may not be at all relevant.

    Calling a spade a spade you only started the thread to undermine another posters views and opinions :)

    If you give a specific example I'll try derive an estimate of this "large number". It would be no more than an approximation however

    I fail to see how it isn't relevant. I've posted several times here on how it is. Let me repeat for the last time, an application of the law of large numbers to gambling is you can't make money in the long run if you fail to obtain incorrect prices. As a corollary the probability you win money in either the long run or over a finite period increases the more "good" bets you place. Winning money when you place "bad" bets is pure chance as is losing money when you place "good" bets.

    I also think I've posted that value is subjective at least a few times. You can't know the prior probability of a horse race/any other sporting event with certainty. However there are metrics you can use as an indication.

    I made this thread to stop threads getting side tracked about value. The Grandouet thread wasn't the only one. In that specific thread my opinion on the subject was called "idiocy". I made an attempt to outline how there was nothing idiotic about it.

    Despite your last comment You are spuriously attempting to undermine my opinion and you're not doing a very good job tbh


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,669 ✭✭✭Colonel Sanders


    By the way please give a case where the law of large numbers is not applicable?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 15,775 ✭✭✭✭Slattsy


    I hear you barking big dog.
    Value is key clearly, but everyone's opinion of value is different. Because of opinion and assumptions.

    I never get too caught up in the statistics side of things. I follow form. If I think a horse should be evens and the bookies price it up at 2/1 then I'll steam in.
    The flip side to that is.... If I price a nag up at 3/1 and think it will win, but the bookies price it up at 7/4, do I still back it? If I think it will win then of course I'll back it. That's how I roll.

    There are instances where I believe a horse are underpriced and i won't play though. And then I'll look elsewhere or call it a no bet race.

    Everyone prices, picks, studies horses in their own unique way.

    There was a lot of nonsense posted but as I say, each to their own. I'm like Luxembourg, I try to stay neutral :-)


This discussion has been closed.
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