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Gardai carrying Guns

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    #422
    cursai
    Registered Users Posts: 2,915 ✭✭✭cursai


    I think the vast majority of gardai, if they became armed would be terrified of the firearm they were holding on their person. Creating a sense of respect for it and certainly not abuse of it.
    I think the culture or mentality when dealing with the public would have to change though. No more tussles on the ground outside a pub or letting a crowd gather around you. The gardai are a very personal kind of police force. If you know what I mean.
    This I think would be the hardest attitude to change in relation to firearm safety.


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    #423
    MagicSean
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,897 ✭✭✭MagicSean


    cursai wrote: »
    I think the vast majority of gardai, if they became armed would be terrified of the firearm they were holding on their person. Creating a sense of respect for it and certainly not abuse of it.
    I think the culture or mentality when dealing with the public would have to change though. No more tussles on the ground outside a pub or letting a crowd gather around you. The gardai are a very personal kind of police force. If you know what I mean.
    This I think would be the hardest attitude to change in relation to firearm safety.

    There would definitely need to be an attitude of standing back and taking precautions. I think there would have to be a parallel introduction of tasers to avoid those struggles and tussles.


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    #424
    MEMBER12
    Registered Users Posts: 57 ✭✭MEMBER12


    I do not want to wait to see if there is a weakness in the Garda Siochana, or until some poor Garda is shot. Start a referendum now this should be talked about in the Dail. Let's get a move on. I think we should follow the Canadian system, proper training and respect should be given to the use of firearms. The public need to be informed properly of the dangers the Gardai are facing and may have to face in the future. Or we can just wait for some Garda to end up in a coffin, I know which one I would choose.


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    #425
    MEMBER12
    Registered Users Posts: 57 ✭✭MEMBER12


    It needs to be dealt with and my opinion is we need a referendum. I believe that this would be supported by the public, full support of the nation should be put behind this issue


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    #426
    MEMBER12
    Registered Users Posts: 57 ✭✭MEMBER12


    MagicSean wrote: »
    You'd probably be surprised if you knew how often unarmed Gardaí get shot at.

    And i can't see any major changes coming any time soon, not unless something really bad happens that shows a weakness in the organisation.

    Do you really wanna wait for that incident to happen, I don't, I'm not giving out about your point, it's justI wanna get this issue dealt with. At the end of the day we could be talking about a murdered Garda today. Thank **** we are not.


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    #427
    cursai
    Registered Users Posts: 2,915 ✭✭✭cursai


    Referendum or not. Which isn't needed by the way. There's no money to fund arming and training of gardai. The higher management aren't going to allow something which may lead the way to them having to pay for it.


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    #428
    monument
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,073 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    MEMBER12 wrote: »

    Do you really wanna wait for that incident to happen, I don't, I'm not giving out about your point, it's justI wanna get this issue dealt with. At the end of the day we could be talking about a murdered Garda today. Thank **** we are not.

    What about general members of the public, can they be armed too? If not everybody, why not:

    Bank staff?

    Security guards?

    Business owners / managers who have to handle a lot of cash?

    Good samaritans?

    Anybody who has strong feelings of getting mugged / raped on the street?

    Anybody who wants to protect their homes?

    Anydody who lives more than 10mins from a Garda station?


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    #429
    K.Flyer
    Registered Users Posts: 8,565 ✭✭✭K.Flyer


    Shots were fired at an unarmed member of the Garda today when he attempted to stop a robbery in Portmarnock.
    One person has been arrested.

    Apart from the arming debate it will be interesting to see how harshly the judicial system deals with the arrested person if found guilty of both the robbery and shooting at the Garda.

    So, the question is, if the same Garda in this situation today was armed, who here believes that that he would have been well within his rights to return fire?

    Personally I say Yes, as his and other lives were in danger.

    BTW, fair play to the Garda, even after being shot at he still went after them.


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    #430
    goldie fish
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,195 ✭✭✭goldie fish


    monument wrote: »
    What about general members of the public, can they be armed too? If not everybody, why not:

    Bank staff?

    Security guards?

    Business owners / managers who have to handle a lot of cash?

    Good samaritans?

    Anybody who has strong feelings of getting mugged / raped on the street?

    Anybody who wants to protect their homes?

    Anydody who lives more than 10mins from a Garda station?

    DoJ etc have manufactured the laws to solve a problem that never existed, in banning the ownership of handguns. I think the real reasoning was it would look bad for members of the public to be legally better armed than the Gardai.


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    #431
    MEMBER12
    Registered Users Posts: 57 ✭✭MEMBER12


    In relation to the money I think the Gardai should look at paying for the firearms out of their own cash, and then get a rebate at the end of the year, This would help cushion the blow for the money being spent. It would also help moving this along. It is time to have an armed Police force to deal with the ever increasing armed criminals on our street. Today some armed scumbag robbed a finical institution, two shots were fired but nobody was injured. Would we look at this differently if a member of the public, or a Garda was injured? In relation to the referendum, we may not need it, but if it is put to a vote and it is backed then it will be so much harder for the government not to act on it.


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    #432
    MEMBER12
    Registered Users Posts: 57 ✭✭MEMBER12


    K.Flyer wrote: »
    Shots were fired at an unarmed member of the Garda today when he attempted to stop a robbery in Portmarnock.
    One person has been arrested.

    Apart from the arming debate it will be interesting to see how harshly the judicial system deals with the arrested person if found guilty of both the robbery and shooting at the Garda.

    So, the question is, if the same Garda in this situation today was armed, who here believes that that he would have been well within his rights to return fire?

    Personally I say Yes, as his and other lives were in danger.

    BTW, fair play to the Garda, even after being shot at he still went after them.
    I believe he would have been well within his right to fire under those conditions. I also believe that the scumbag would not have fired if he knew an armed Garda was outside. Well done to the boys in blue.


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    #433
    MagicSean
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,897 ✭✭✭MagicSean


    monument wrote: »
    What about general members of the public, can they be armed too? If not everybody, why not:

    Bank staff?

    Security guards?

    Business owners / managers who have to handle a lot of cash?

    Good samaritans?

    Anybody who has strong feelings of getting mugged / raped on the street?

    Anybody who wants to protect their homes?

    Anydody who lives more than 10mins from a Garda station?

    What relevence is that?
    MEMBER12 wrote: »
    In relation to the money I think the Gardai should look at paying for the firearms out of their own cash, and then get a rebate at the end of the year, This would help cushion the blow for the money being spent. It would also help moving this along. It is time to have an armed Police force to deal with the ever increasing armed criminals on our street. Today some armed scumbag robbed a finical institution, two shots were fired but nobody was injured. Would we look at this differently if a member of the public, or a Garda was injured? In relation to the referendum, we may not need it, but if it is put to a vote and it is backed then it will be so much harder for the government not to act on it.

    Or Gardaí could ask Santa to deliver them.


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    #434
    monument
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,073 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    MEMBER12 wrote: »
    I believe he would have been well within his right to fire under those conditions. I also believe that the scumbag would not have fired if he knew an armed Garda was outside. Well done to the boys in blue.

    Scumbags never fire on general armed police elsewhere? Well, we know that's not true.


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    #435
    MEMBER12
    Registered Users Posts: 57 ✭✭MEMBER12


    monument wrote: »
    Scumbags never fire on general armed police elsewhere? Well, we know that's not true.

    We are not talking about crime and criminals elsewhere, we are talking about our lot. They are cowards, they won't pick a fight unless they have the upper hand. The Gardai should always always have the upper hand.


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    #436
    Witcher
    Registered Users Posts: 14,531 ✭✭✭✭Witcher


    K.Flyer wrote: »
    So, the question is, if the same Garda in this situation today was armed, who here believes that that he would have been well within his rights to return fire?

    There's no doubt would have been right to return fire, I mean if they couldn't fire when someone is firing at them when could they fire? If this was the US, we'd be reading about when the funeral was being held for the robber.

    Lets face it, when firearms are introduced for all Gardai, the first time they shoot someone in this situation there will be a load of people shouting 'Boo! Should have shot him in the leg! Garda brutality'..it's just inevitable. People here aren't used to the Gardai killing people...even after the post office raid in Lusk a few years ago there was murder over the Gardai shooting them.

    Read the reactions of Irish people to cops shooting dead a guy in Times Square a few months back...absolutely ignorant of how police employ firearms in reality as compared to movies. One of the hardest aspects will be how people here will adapt to the guards having them. I anticipate I will be rolling my eyes non stop when the tabloids go on about the Gardai's new 'high powered automatic handguns' and how they 'blasted' someone robber somewhere...and then the Joe Duffy show's reaction....Jesus:pac:


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    #437
    MEMBER12
    Registered Users Posts: 57 ✭✭MEMBER12


    Blay wrote: »
    There's no doubt would have been right to return fire, I mean if they couldn't fire when someone is firing at them when could they fire? If this was the US, we'd be reading about when the funeral was being held for the robber.

    Lets face it, when firearms are introduced for all Gardai, the first time they shoot someone in this situation there will be a load of people shouting 'Boo! Should have shot him in the leg! Garda brutality'..it's just inevitable. People here aren't used to the Gardai killing people...even after the post office raid in Lusk a few years ago there was murder over the Gardai shooting them.

    Read the reactions of Irish people to cops shooting dead a guy in Times Square a few months back...absolutely ignorant of how police employ firearms in reality as compared to movies. One of the hardest aspects will be how people here will adapt to the guards having them. I anticipate I will be rolling my eyes non stop when the tabloids go on about the Gardai's new 'high powered automatic handguns' and how they 'blasted' someone robber somewhere...and then the Joe Duffy show's reaction....Jesus:pac:

    Agree with you 100%


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    #438
    MEMBER12
    Registered Users Posts: 57 ✭✭MEMBER12


    On the ten o'clock news it said that this guy was challenged by an unarmed uniformed Garda who was then shot at, he took cover and when he again tried to follow this scumbag he was shot at again. So much for these guys not shooting Gardai because they are unarmed. Also well done to the member of the public for following these guys with the Garda in his car. Gun and money retrieved, a job well done.


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    #439
    monument
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,073 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    MEMBER12 wrote: »
    We are not talking about crime and criminals elsewhere, we are talking about our lot. They are cowards, they won't pick a fight unless they have the upper hand. The Gardai should always always have the upper hand.

    Police do not aim to wound, they aim to kill. When a scumbag knows that there's a good change an officer is going to kill him, the scumbag will try his best to kill the officer first. It's that simple.

    As for upper hand: The scumbag will also likely have more hours to spend in a woods somewhere to target practice, so he'll be the one with the upper hand.


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    #440
    Rovi
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,570 ✭✭✭Rovi


    monument wrote: »
    As for upper hand: The scumbag will also likely have more hours to spend in a woods somewhere to target practice, so he'll be the one with the upper hand.
    Yep, it's a well known fact that these guys are highly skilled 'operators':
    http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0323/collopyp.html


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    #441
    MEMBER12
    Registered Users Posts: 57 ✭✭MEMBER12


    The scumbag already tried to shoot the Garda twice, what planet are you on. The Gardai will have much better training if they are armed, get a life and stop hating on the Gardai, this scumbag put everyone in danger. The Garda was unarmed and in uniform and he was shot at twice.


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    #442
    monument
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,073 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    Rovi wrote: »
    Yep, it's a well known fact that these guys are highly skilled 'operators':
    http://www.rte.ie/news/2009/0323/collopyp.html

    Let me Google that for you.


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    #443
    monument
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,073 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    MEMBER12 wrote: »
    The scumbag already tried to shoot the Garda twice, what planet are you on. The Gardai will have much better training if they are armed, get a life and stop hating on the Gardai, this scumbag put everyone in danger. The Garda was unarmed and in uniform and he was shot at twice.

    I don't hate the gardai. Get a life and get over the idea that just because I don't want the force all armed means I have something against the the force.

    Many officers don't get all the required driving training, so it's highly likely that there'd also be a lack of arms training.

    You have yet to answer my question about arming the general population who are at risk of getting robbed, burgled, mugged, raped, or killed.....


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    #444
    Witcher
    Registered Users Posts: 14,531 ✭✭✭✭Witcher


    monument wrote: »
    Many officers don't get all the required driving training, so it's highly likely that there'd also be a lack of arms training.

    You really think they're going to put a pistol down in front of a person who has never even seen a gun in their life and say 'Take it...no training'? A regular person can't even get a firearm in Ireland without having undergone some form of competency training.


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    #445
    monument
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,073 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    Blay wrote: »
    You really think they're going to put a pistol down in front of a person who has never even seen a gun in their life and say 'Take it...no training'? A regular person can't even get a firearm in Ireland without having undergone some form of competency training.

    [A] Some form of training, and the right level of training, are two distinct things which can be a million miles away from each other.


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    #446
    Witcher
    Registered Users Posts: 14,531 ✭✭✭✭Witcher


    monument wrote: »
    [A] Some form of training, and the right level of training, are two distinct things which can be a million miles away from each other.

    The average firearm owner here isn't carrying their gun all day and engaging criminals with it so 'some' form of training will do, if they know where the safety is and where not to point it that's just about all they need. The average Garda's training would need to be more in depth and there is nothing to suggest they would not get the proper training..detectives get it at present dont they? Gardai received training when they got the ASP which is basically a stick when you get right down to it.

    If the force is going to take a radical step such as this, a key factor in winning public support for the force now being armed is that they are seen to be able to use them safely and responsibly.


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    #447
    dorkacle
    Closed Accounts Posts: 346 ✭✭dorkacle


    Zambia wrote: »
    It always surprises me when this subject comes up. That so many people believe that issuing Irish police with firearms Will suddenly turn them into homicidal maniac's. An armed response unit is all well and good however when something escalates it normally escalates with very little warning.

    I think it just shows the lack of faith the general public have in the Gardai to police themselves let alone the country....


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    #448
    Witcher
    Registered Users Posts: 14,531 ✭✭✭✭Witcher


    dorkacle wrote: »
    I think it just shows the lack of faith the general public have in the Gardai to police themselves let alone the country....

    It shows the ignorance of the Irish public about anything firearms related, people do not suddenly turn into murderers because they have a gun in their hand.


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    #449
    monument
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,073 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    Blay wrote: »
    ...there is nothing to suggest they would not get the proper training..detectives get it at present dont they?

    Officers -- this year -- were still driving on the superintendent's permission five years on from when the inspectorate issued a report which was highly critical of the practice.


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    #450
    dorkacle
    Closed Accounts Posts: 346 ✭✭dorkacle


    Blay wrote: »
    It shows the ignorance of the Irish public about anything firearms related, people do not suddenly turn into murderers because they have a gun in their hand.

    I never said they do turn into murders? :confused:


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    #451
    Witcher
    Registered Users Posts: 14,531 ✭✭✭✭Witcher


    monument wrote: »
    Officers -- this year -- were still driving on the superintendent's permission five years on from when the inspectorate issued a report which was highly critical of the practice.

    You can't really compare driving a car to using a firearm, with a gun you only have to move the first joint of your index finger and you have potentially taken someone's life, while driving a car is dangerous, it requires more than a slip of the index finger for something to go wrong.


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