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Make money by not paying your fines

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    #32
    Tonto86
    Registered Users Posts: 731 ✭✭✭Tonto86


    lisaj wrote: »
    What about the criminal record and credit rating?

    Fines for the like of littering, parking, local council etc dont carry a criminal offence. You can choose to serve a sentence instead of paying the fine and you wont end up with a criminal record. Also it will have no effect on your credit rating... dont really understand how people think that.

    Most fines under €4000 will be a walk in walk out day job. I seen a guy get a €10,000 public dumping fine and serve half a day of a 30 day sentence

    And some prisons give you €5 and your bus ticket home :pac:


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    #33
    milltown
    Registered Users Posts: 4,613 ✭✭✭milltown


    A point that seems to be going largely missed here is that a criminal record is only a deterrent to people who don't have one already.
    It would also seem to be a reasonable bet that the guy referenced in the OP doesn't have a credit rating worth losing any sleep over.


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    #34
    Milk & Honey
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,950 ✭✭✭Milk & Honey


    ArtSmart wrote: »
    ok, suppose a guy owes the bank say, 6K. he's unemployed now and wont/ cant pay.

    he doesnt go to court when eventually summoned. judge rules in favour of the bank in absentia . guy still refuse to pay.

    what happens next?

    ok, I'll give an answer from my understanding. According to Section 28 of the 1926 Act as amended by Section 6 of the 1940 Act a person can be sent to prison for 'willful neglect' to pay a debt after a court order - it doesnt distinguish between ability to pay and wilingness to pay. 35 people were incarcerated last year for non payment of debt.

    The New Personal Solvency Bill doesnt seem to address that issue, but it might. (law soc recoms community service) but the bank , well, they aint happy.

    What you describe as 'civil' most certainly becomes 'criminal' or as close as makes little difference - ie in terms of consequence.

    After entry for a civil debt, there is an examination process which is a separate legal proceeding taken by the creditor after judgement has ben obtained. "wilful neglect" in this case means "can pay, won't pay". It can't be wilful if the person has no means to pay. The intent of the imprisonment is coercive i.e. to force compliance with the court order. The court must be satisfied that the person can afford to pay either the whole amount or an instalment before imprisonment occurs.
    It is radically different in nature to imprisonment as punishment for a criminal offence.


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    #35
    AngryHippie
    Registered Users Posts: 2,625 ✭✭✭AngryHippie


    I met a guy over here in Oz a few weeks back, he had 10k worth of fines for boating and driving offences, he did the math and the lost income for him was less than the 28 day prison sentence for refusing to pay the fines. In he went and did his time. better off to the tune of about 3 grand. Happy camper !:rolleyes:


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    #36
    steve9859
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,554 ✭✭✭steve9859


    Tonto86 wrote: »
    Fines for the like of littering, parking, local council etc dont carry a criminal offence. You can choose to serve a sentence instead of paying the fine and you wont end up with a criminal record. Also it will have no effect on your credit rating... dont really understand how people think that.

    Most fines under €4000 will be a walk in walk out day job. I seen a guy get a €10,000 public dumping fine and serve half a day of a 30 day sentence

    And some prisons give you €5 and your bus ticket home :pac:

    Surely its easier to put your litter in a bin?


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    #37
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    New Fines bill published today which will all but eliminate the practise of sending people to jail for non payment of fines.
    They'll just attach the fine to your income if you refuse to pay.

    http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/1023/fines-bill-government.html


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    #38
    Irish Guitarist
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,736 ✭✭✭Irish Guitarist


    I'd love €1.40 now. Aldi have noodles for only 20 cent a packet. For €1.40 I could buy seven packets of them.

    I'm really jealous. :(


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    #39
    andrew241983
    Closed Accounts Posts: 560 ✭✭✭andrew241983


    You still have to pay your fine when you get out of prison!!!


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    #40
    donegal_road
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,281 ✭✭✭donegal_road


    motor tax is a case in example, it used to be cheaper to pay the fine for not having tax, than to tax the car


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    #41
    Tar.Aldarion
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,082 Mod ✭✭✭✭Tar.Aldarion


    Make money by not breaking the law. Special offer of no jailtime or community service.


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    #42
    Fulton Crown
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,493 ✭✭✭Fulton Crown


    AngryHippie wrote: »
    I met a guy over here in Oz a few weeks back, he had 10k worth of fines for boating and driving offences, he did the math and the lost income for him was less than the 28 day prison sentence for refusing to pay the fines. In he went and did his time. better off to the tune of about 3 grand. Happy camper !:rolleyes:

    Boating and Driving offensives ?

    Sounds like one of these alpha chavs who wear tracksuits and three quarters on holiday.

    Let me guess now ?
    • This Dude thinks he is very smart.
    • Probably welched on his car and Boat loans
    • Ignores parking rules and speed limits.
    • Routinely rips off all big institutions and Govt Departments.
    • Sponges off his family

    Typical Irishman really.........


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    #43
    gobnaitolunacy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,073 ✭✭✭gobnaitolunacy


    Tonto86 wrote: »

    Most fines under €4000 will be a walk in walk out day job. I seen a guy get a €10,000 public dumping fine and serve half a day of a 30 day sentence

    And some prisons give you €5 and your bus ticket home :pac:

    FFS, low lifes that litter the country should be made pick their sh*t up and more besides. Make the punishment fit the crime. Fcuking joke of a legal system.

    If I was in charge the b*stards would be out in the orange jumpsuits on community service.


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    #44
    donegal_road
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,281 ✭✭✭donegal_road


    gobnaitolunacy wrote: »
    FFS, low lifes that litter the country should be made pick their sh*t up and more besides. Make the punishment fit the crime. Fcuking joke of a legal system.

    If I was in charge the b*stards would be out in the orange jumpsuits on community service.

    there was a case last year where a guy in Ashbourne went down to the local recycling place only to find all the bottle containers full. So he did what he saw everyone else had done, and left some plastic bags filled with empty bottles wedged in between the containers.

    Unfortunately for him, he had parked his car within site of the security camera and the authorities managed to get his reg. So he received a fine in the post, and refused to pay it, went to court & the fine was doubled, refused to pay, went back to court and the fine was put up to €800, he refused to pay so the judge imposed a 2 week sentence. Thats the last I heard of it, an unlucky way for him to receive a criminal record.


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    #45
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 40,815 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    juan.kerr wrote: »
    In a few years scum bags who got suspended sentences will sue the state because they were denied the generous prison wages.

    I wonder is it pensionable income...

    Generous me hole. 1.70 a day!

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #46
    Annasopra
    Registered Users Posts: 40,815 ✭✭✭✭Annasopra


    andrew241983 wrote: »
    You still have to pay your fine when you get out of prison!!!

    That's the thing. Under current law you don't

    It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.

    Terry Pratchet



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    #47
    Pat Mustard
    Registered Users Posts: 9,554 ✭✭✭Pat Mustard


    Milk & Honey wrote: »
    There is no imprisonment for non payment of a civil judgement. The only way there might be imprisonment is if there was a civil judgement and there was an instalment proces begun against him and he didn't co-operate with it and pay an instalment.
    If you read my post correctly, you will see that I suggested that he was imprisoned for non-compliance with a court order. An instalment order is a court order, and in this instance, failure to comply with it is the most likely reason why the man was imprisoned.
    Milk & Honey wrote: »
    In that case there would be imprisonment for contempt and he would not be let out after a few hours.
    Imprisonment will be for failure to comply with an instalment order, not contempt of court. See s.6 of the Enforcement of Court Orders Act 1940, as amended by s.2 of the Enforcement of Court Orders (Amendment) Act 2009.http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2009/en/act/pub/0021/print.html#sec2
    Milk & Honey wrote: »
    It was much more likely to have been a 2.5k criminal fine.
    If not in relation to a civil judgment, then why did the OP mention that solicitors were writing to the man?
    Milk & Honey wrote: »
    There is no effect on the criminal record. The imposition of the fine will have been preceded by a conviction. The imprisonment is in lieu of the fine and so makes no difference. His record will always read "convicted of x at y court and fined z".
    This all presupposes that it is a criminal matter - and that's not likely, given the description by the OP.


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    #48
    donegal_road
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,281 ✭✭✭donegal_road


    looks like the party is over. Government to introduce system of paying fines by installment


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    #49
    Tonto86
    Registered Users Posts: 731 ✭✭✭Tonto86


    andrew241983 wrote: »
    You still have to pay your fine when you get out of prison!!!

    Eh no, ya don't

    And why do people keep saying criminal record, if its not a crime you don't get a criminal record!


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    #50
    Milk & Honey
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,950 ✭✭✭Milk & Honey


    The Mustard wrote: »
    If you read my post correctly, you will see that I suggested that he was imprisoned for non-compliance with a court order. An instalment order is a court order, and in this instance, failure to comply with it is the most likely reason why the man was imprisoned.

    Imprisonment will be for failure to comply with an instalment order, not contempt of court. See s.6 of the Enforcement of Court Orders Act 1940, as amended by s.2 of the Enforcement of Court Orders (Amendment) Act 2009.http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2009/en/act/pub/0021/print.html#sec2

    If not in relation to a civil judgment, then why did the OP mention that solicitors were writing to the man?


    This all presupposes that it is a criminal matter - and that's not likely, given the description by the OP.


    Instalments are not for €2.5k. They will be what someone can afford after being brought to the District Court and being examined as to means. The instalment order would be to pay €50 a month or some such.

    The letters the man got were from agents employed to try and get the money in before the arrest warrant was executed.

    It was certainly not a civil matter given the description. If there was a civil judgement and the individual refused to go to the District Court he would be arrested and brought there to have his means assessed. That didn't happen. A judgement in a civil case is not a fine. In a civil case the debt is not written off following imprisonment. It is also very unlikely to have been in a round sum as there would be added costs in any civil process.


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    #51
    Pat Mustard
    Registered Users Posts: 9,554 ✭✭✭Pat Mustard


    Milk & Honey wrote: »
    Instalments are not for €2.5k.
    You assert this as if rebutting some point I made.
    Milk & Honey wrote: »
    The letters the man got were from agents employed to try and get the money in before the arrest warrant was executed.
    What agents? Are you saying it was a civil debt collection case and solicitors were writing about that?
    Milk & Honey wrote: »
    If there was a civil judgement and the individual refused to go to the District Court he would be arrested and brought there to have his means assessed. That didn't happen.
    Your point is not clear, but I would suggest that this is how the debtor came to be imprisoned: The debtor attended the instalment order application, the instalment order was made, he failed to make some or all of the relevant payments under the instalment order subequently, the creditor made an application to court on foot of the debtor's failure to comply with the instalment order, then the judge made an order to imprison the debtor on failure to comply with the instalment order.
    Milk & Honey wrote: »
    A judgement in a civil case is not a fine.
    This is not in dispute.
    Milk & Honey wrote: »
    In a civil case the debt is not written off following imprisonment.
    What point are you making?
    Milk & Honey wrote: »
    It is also very unlikely to have been in a round sum as there would be added costs in any civil process.
    Interesting point, but there are apparent contradictions in the original post. Perhaps the reference to €2,500 is an approximate figure.

    If it really is a fine, it's a pretty large one, if it's €2,500.

    By way of comparison, people who have been convicted of drink driving often get fines in the region of €500 for a first offence.


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