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Who do you consider to be Irish ?

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    #122
    WildSaffron
    Registered Users Posts: 102 ✭✭WildSaffron


    She was definately Spanish - may have been elevated to a goddess status.

    It's interesting walking around the area where the Palace of Tailtiu stood - there is still a lot of undiscovered rock art there.


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    #123
    horsemaster
    Registered Users Posts: 123 ✭✭horsemaster


    Any Irish who has taken curry has automatically become an Indian. Any Indian who has drunk Guinness is an Irish. This are no two ways about it. Be happy for who you are and love others from whatever background they come from. Anything else is relative.


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    #124
    Ipso
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,995 ✭✭✭Ipso


    WildSaffron wrote: »
    I was born in Africa and have lived in Ireland for 18 years. I work hard at promoting tourism to Ireland. My little baby is 8 weeks old and my husband in born and bred in Ireland - but of viking extraction. This is a stupid debate - there is no such thing as a "true Celt" - Ireland is a special place because it was inhabited by waves of immigrants over the centuries. Greeks, Welsh, Scottish, Spanish, Egyptians etc. Possibly an odd Borg here and there.

    How do Greeks, Spanish and Egyptians fit into things?


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    #125
    robp
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,934 ✭✭✭robp


    WildSaffron wrote: »
    I was born in Africa and have lived in Ireland for 18 years. I work hard at promoting tourism to Ireland. My little baby is 8 weeks old and my husband in born and bred in Ireland - but of viking extraction. This is a stupid debate - there is no such thing as a "true Celt" - Ireland is a special place because it was inhabited by waves of immigrants over the centuries. Greeks, Welsh, Scottish, Spanish, Egyptians etc. Possibly an odd Borg here and there.

    Ideas and fashions have always spread across borders but people moving to Ireland is largely a modern thing. The one exception would be Norman and British plantations. Aside from the occasional migrant from Spain or France that is all. Personally I would even say very few Irish are descended from Vikings. Ireland is more unusual for insularity than the opposite.


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    #126
    LordSutch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,078 ✭✭✭✭LordSutch


    I'd say most of "the 1st wave" of people who arrived on this island 9.000 years ago came from/via Britain, which I guess was used as a stopping point before the travellers (origin Iberia)? upped sticks and sailed across the Irish sea to become the very 1st inhabitants of Ireland.

    Interesting to note that Britain as an island has been inhabited by humans much much longer than Ireland.


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    #127
    WildSaffron
    Registered Users Posts: 102 ✭✭WildSaffron


    Ipso wrote: »
    How do Greeks, Spanish and Egyptians fit into things?

    The Irish were notorius for raiding Britain.

    That is how St. Patrick came to Ireland - he was kidnapped by Niall of the Nine Hostages.

    Just one example.

    The name of Scotland is derived from an Egyptian princess (buried in Kerry) - who came to Ireland via Spain - and whose descendants moved to Scotland - "the Land of Scota".


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    #128
    Ipso
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,995 ✭✭✭Ipso


    WildSaffron wrote: »

    The Irish were notorius for raiding Britain.

    That is how St. Patrick came to Ireland - he was kidnapped by Niall of the Nine Hostages.

    Just one example.

    The name of Scotland is derived from an Egyptian princess (buried in Kerry) - who came to Ireland via Spain - and whose descendants moved to Scotland - "the Land of Scota".

    I'd be skeptical about the Niall/Patrick link. Most likely an attempt to link two important people.
    As for Scota it's most likely a combination of Romans projecting their origin stories and Ireland trying to link itself to classical stories.


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    #129
    WildSaffron
    Registered Users Posts: 102 ✭✭WildSaffron


    Ipso wrote: »
    I'd be skeptical about the Niall/Patrick link. Most likely an attempt to link two important people.
    As for Scota it's most likely a combination of Romans projecting their origin stories and Ireland trying to link itself to classical stories.

    Interesting points. However - an examination of the Annals of the Four Masters shows the Irish defending their own history.

    There is corruption and legend involved - but the British did really try to make the Irish look like they just came out of the trees.

    The Irish - or people that lived in Ireland - built structures 2,000 years before the Pyramids.


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    #130
    WildSaffron
    Registered Users Posts: 102 ✭✭WildSaffron


    Another point - the Irish are good at making apologies for being Irish - gosh - I wish I were Irish - I am in heart!!! Why not celebrate it - and teach our kids to as well?


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    #131
    Ipso
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,995 ✭✭✭Ipso


    WildSaffron wrote: »
    Another point - the Irish are good at making apologies for being Irish - gosh - I wish I were Irish - I am in heart!!! Why not celebrate it - and teach our kids to as well?

    Definitely, but we need to distinguish between history and mythology/pseudo history.
    Both are rich and should be celebrated in their own right. There's enough outside distortions without adding to it ourselves.


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    #132
    WildSaffron
    Registered Users Posts: 102 ✭✭WildSaffron


    Ipso wrote: »
    Definitely, but we need to distinguish between history and mythology/pseudo history.
    Both are rich and should be celebrated in their own right. There's enough outside distortions without adding to it ourselves.

    I agree.

    Where I am coming from is that Ireland is full of stories - and that is what people abroad love. We should celebrate it all.


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    #133
    Sound of Silence
    Registered Users Posts: 1,192 ✭✭✭Sound of Silence


    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    OP, what you are seeing I'm this thread is a demonstration of the belief still held ny a lot of people in this country that Irish = white AMD catholic.

    You are an Irish Citizen and identify yourself as Irish. That makes you Irish in my book.

    It would be incredibly short sighted to assume that this dissonance was ever promoted solely by "White Catholics". You must understand that on this Island there is a population, both North and South of the border, whose Irish identity necessitates partition. And if not partition, then Union with Great Britain in whole.

    You have to ask yourself whether these people simply occupy a different strata of the Irish Identity, or whether their apparent "Irishness" is actually nothing but an ancillary aspect to of their wider British heritage. It's clear that LordSutch battles with his Irish identity in a similar manner, as he tries to reconcile his British heritage with what could be described as a consequential Irishness.

    Figures like Johnathan Swift and George Bernard Shaw have also battled with their identities and allegiances; and in the case of Swift, he often made efforts to distance himself entirely from his Irish roots. I doubt that these inner conflicts that they endured had much to do with "White Catholic" rhetoric, rather they could be described as a symptom of a rapidly diversifying Island.
    LordSutch wrote: »
    I'd say most of "the 1st wave" of people who arrived on this island 9.000 years ago came from/via Britain, which I guess was used as a stopping point before the travellers (origin Iberia)? upped sticks and sailed across the Irish sea to become the very 1st inhabitants of Ireland.

    Interesting to note that Britain as an island has been inhabited by humans much much longer than Ireland.

    It's an interesting point that I'm sure many people are aware of.

    It's often used, however, to preface an argument for British control over this Island as being Natural and right.


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    #134
    LordSutch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,078 ✭✭✭✭LordSutch


    Sound of Silence wrote: »
    It's an interesting point that I'm sure many people are aware of.

    It's often used, however, to preface an argument for British control over this Island as being Natural and right.

    The way I see it is that Ireland was covered by ice for longer than Britain? plus the fact that Britain had been connected to mainland Europe, hence the first settlers arriving into Britain just walked across the land bridge! Ireland was not connected so it had to be reached by sea much much later.


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    #135
    barfizz
    Registered Users Posts: 145 ✭✭barfizz


    anishboi wrote: »
    I am just posting this with the sole purpose of creating a debate.

    I want to know who you guys consider to be Irish.

    Many people I know accept people who aren't of Irish ancestry, but are born and raised in Ireland, as Irish. Others choose not to.

    I am an Irish person of Indian ancestry; as in both my parents are Indian immigrants, so I don't have any proper Irish blood heritage.

    But I was born in this country, lived here all of my life, I feel Irish, apparently speak with a strong Sligo accent (according to many people who I speak to) and I got an A2 in Irish in the Leaving Cert.

    Therefore I self-identify as Irish and, to be honest, I have never really called myself Indian.

    What are your thoughts ? On what grounds do you classify an Irish person ?

    Cheers :D

    If you look suspiciously at someone, and think that they are not from around here, consider yourself Irish. :)


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    #136
    barfizz
    Registered Users Posts: 145 ✭✭barfizz


    IrishAm wrote: »

    Irish peeps are people whom have at least grandparent around at the foundation of our state. Also, according to a study conducted in 2001, 90 per cent of Irish people had direct ancestry to the original inhabitants of these islands.

    Anybody with a trace of Irish blood can claim they have direct ancestry to the original inhabitants , whoever they are.
    e.g. out of my over 200+ great - great - great - great - etc grand parents (in the last 1000 years) if only one of them is "original Irish" I qualify :), Your argument is silly.
    There is a very simple arrhythmical calculation that shows that by going back about 4000 years in anyone's heritage we can all find a link to a common ancestor so that includes me being related to Brian Boru, Winston Churchill, Genghis khan, etc.
    I' sorry to burst your bubble but we are all a lot more closely related than you think.
    And just before your claim I'm a "blow in" my ancestors have been on this Island for centuries.
    I'm Irish and proud, but I'm not scared of difference.


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    #137
    barfizz
    Registered Users Posts: 145 ✭✭barfizz


    IrishAm wrote: »
    I can debate this with you. 90 per cent of Irish peeps are indigenous to this great nation.

    Ireland for the Irish

    You can debate,
    Define indigenous, to me it is "Originating and living or occurring naturally in an area or environment."
    Looks to me as anyone who was born here :)


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    #138
    Nitochris
    Closed Accounts Posts: 122 ✭✭Nitochris


    Ipso wrote: »
    I'd be skeptical about the Niall/Patrick link. Most likely an attempt to link two important people.
    As for Scota it's most likely a combination of Romans projecting their origin stories and Ireland trying to link itself to classical stories.

    On the Egyptian one the more obvious meaning to it is an attempt to link the Irish to the bible (Scota being the daughter of the Pharoah who appears in Exodus, I believe McCone has written on this somewhere).


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    #139
    Ipso
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,995 ✭✭✭Ipso


    Nitochris wrote: »

    On the Egyptian one the more obvious meaning to it is an attempt to link the Irish to the bible (Scota being the daughter of the Pharoah who appears in Exodus, I believe McCone has written on this somewhere).

    Other attempts to link Ireland to the bible include The Pantheon (i think), Cesar and The Milesians from The Book of Invasions.
    The Scythians were also a popular lot to tru to link to for some reason.


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    #140
    Bungarra
    Registered Users Posts: 64 ✭✭Bungarra


    Op considers himself Irish, therefore OP is Irish... Can't see where the confusion is!


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    #141
    Azhrei
    Registered Users Posts: 308 ✭✭Azhrei


    WildSaffron wrote: »
    The Irish were notorius for raiding Britain.

    That is how St. Patrick came to Ireland - he was kidnapped by Niall of the Nine Hostages.

    Just one example.

    The name of Scotland is derived from an Egyptian princess (buried in Kerry) - who came to Ireland via Spain - and whose descendants moved to Scotland - "the Land of Scota".

    I don't recall ever hearing anything about that - as far as I have been told, an Irish tribe called the Scoti moved over to Scotland, civilised the Picts, and Scotland got it's name.


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    #142
    Sound of Silence
    Registered Users Posts: 1,192 ✭✭✭Sound of Silence


    Azhrei wrote: »
    I don't recall ever hearing anything about that - as far as I have been told, an Irish tribe called the Scoti moved over to Scotland, civilised the Picts, and Scotland got it's name.

    As I recall, the term "Scoti" was simply used as a diminutive term by Roman Forces to identify Irish raiders. It's unlikely that the tribes actually called themselves "Scoti".

    As the territory of the raiders expanded, so too did their area of Gaelic influence. Eventually the area became synonymous with "Scoti", and was effectively named as such.


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    #143
    Azhrei
    Registered Users Posts: 308 ✭✭Azhrei


    That makes sense :)


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    #144
    Precious flower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,812 ✭✭✭Precious flower


    I was born in London to Irish parents and moved here when I was five. I never considered myself English but always Irish. I've no reason to identify myself as English I don't even remember growing up there! I didn't know at the time but when I was getting my Irish passport I could have put down English as my nationally. Even if I had known I would have put down Irish.
    I have relatives in England who consider themselves Irish because their parents are Irish. If you live here and consider yourself Irish that's great! I think it's brilliant that different nationalities call Ireland home.

    I for one think it's lovely that they feel they are Irish. If your parents are Irish but live abroad I feel you should be able to call yourself Irish if you wish. It's nice to know that people with Irish parents living abroad still feel proud in saying they're Irish. The comedian Conan O'Brien considers himself Irish even though his family have been in America for generations. I think that's lovely. :) It's up to the individual what they decide and it's nice that OP feels proud to call himself Irish!


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    #145
    gobnaitolunacy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,073 ✭✭✭gobnaitolunacy


    Precious flower wrote: »
    The comedian Conan O'Brien considers himself Irish even though his family have been in America for generations. I think that's lovely.

    I think it's cloying, more so if they're out of touch with present day Ireland and imagining its still shamrocks and shillelaghs.... drinking green beer on St Patty's (sic.) Day, etc.


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    #146
    intellectual dosser
    Registered Users Posts: 1,827 ✭✭✭intellectual dosser


    When I read the title thread I thought of the Nuremburg Laws? I feel a little guilty but in my defense I watched Conspiracy only last weekend.


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    #147
    kupus
    Registered Users Posts: 4,151 ✭✭✭kupus


    gobnaitolunacy wrote: »
    I think it's cloying, more so if they're out of touch with present day Ireland and imagining its still shamrocks and shillelaghs.... drinking green beer on St Patty's (sic.) Day, etc.


    taken from the big man .....
    tonycascarino wrote: »
    If an American or whatever nationality has Irish descent & wants to call themselves Irish that's fine by me. Why would any Irish person get insecure about this? I take it as a compliment.


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    #148
    LordSutch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,078 ✭✭✭✭LordSutch


    Shane McGowan Irish, or is he?

    17362d1139439356-rob-thurston-appoligies-funnythumb.jpg


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    #149
    Ipso
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,995 ✭✭✭Ipso


    gobnaitolunacy wrote: »

    I think it's cloying, more so if they're out of touch with present day Ireland and imagining its still shamrocks and shillelaghs.... drinking green beer on St Patty's (sic.) Day, etc.

    Don't forget the readon may Americans do the whole Irish thing is because of how their Irish ancestors raised them. Irish people have no problem buying into other peoples idea of them, look at the ridiculousleprechaun hats that are always on sale.
    Then there's the whole let's have a festival because a drink company tells us.


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    #150
    Seanchai
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,401 ✭✭✭Seanchai


    Anybody who defends the right of Ireland and the Irish people to live free from foreign occupation, and to enjoy an indigenous culture rather than be forced to accept the culture which is imposed by aforesaid foreign force, has a right to be Irish in my view.

    Without such a sovereign right being defended Irishness would be as meaningless as Kentishness, mere parochialism in the English cultural nation as it extends to Ireland. They can have such an Ireland.

    Irish Ireland is the only Ireland worth defending. It is the cultural basis of a separate Irish nation. The rest - rugby, soccer, etc - is mere Englishness with an Oirish veneer. It is not, and never has been, worthy of having a separate sovereign state.


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    #151
    Sound of Silence
    Registered Users Posts: 1,192 ✭✭✭Sound of Silence


    LordSutch wrote: »
    Shane McGowan Irish, or is he?

    17362d1139439356-rob-thurston-appoligies-funnythumb.jpg

    With a smile like that, how could he not be Irish!


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