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New Dublin Bus GT Class

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12357…13

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    #122
    The_Wrecker
    Registered Users Posts: 471 ✭✭The_Wrecker


    AlekSmart wrote: »
    Most certainly will,particularly the many Forreners who see no taint attached to using multiple doored buses.

    However,in that peculiar place known as "Irishness" the biggest question for Busdrivers in DublinBus is how many passengers will enter by the centre doors.....:rolleyes:

    My young lad being a bus user can confirm some internal leakage around Marine road.
    Also (shock horror) GT7 on the road today with one of its running lights broken!


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    #123
    Cookie_Monster
    Registered Users Posts: 24,475 ✭✭✭✭Cookie_Monster


    The_Wrecker wrote: »
    Also (shock horror) GT7 on the road today with one of its running lights broken!

    smashed or just not working?


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    #124
    Terrontress
    Registered Users Posts: 3,888 ✭✭✭Terrontress


    AlekSmart wrote: »
    LordSutch wrote: »
    Big question is, will all passengers exit throught the middle doors?

    Most certainly will,particularly the many Forreners who see no taint attached to using multiple doored buses.

    However,in that peculiar place known as "Irishness" the biggest question for Busdrivers in DublinBus is how many passengers will enter by the centre doors.....:rolleyes:

    What are the consequences for drivers if this sort of fare evasion, or any for that matter, goes on?

    Surely the can't expect you to either leave the cab to challenge it.

    I've been on a bus in London where the driver has refused to move until the guy who got on the side doors leaves but I don't think London would be so bad for fare evasion as Dublin given the amount of people with travelcards.

    So if people jumping on by the middle doors increases is it best to ignore it and continue trying to provide the best service possible for those who have paid?


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    #125
    CIE
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,463 ✭✭✭CIE


    AlekSmart wrote: »
    LordSutch wrote: »
    Big question is, will all passengers exit through the middle doors?
    Most certainly will, particularly the many Forreners who see no taint attached to using multiple doored buses.

    However, in that peculiar place known as "Irishness" the biggest question for Busdrivers in DublinBus is how many passengers will enter by the centre doors.....:rolleyes:
    This has been solved in America by having the passenger operate the centre doors and the doors closing automatically after the last exiting passenger. This technology has been around since the GM "New Look" bus came out way back in 1959 (the last type of this bus was manufactured in 1987, incidentally) and lookalike Flxible New Look in 1960; yet like head-end power in trains, it seems that CIE and its subsidiaries do not want to adopt technology advancements that came out a half-century ago. (Incidentally, it's not the case that all passengers exit by the rear door, which would slow things down; they exit by both doors.)
    800px-Ex-Rose_City_Transit_bus%2C_Tri-Met_575%2C_in_1985.jpg


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    #126
    Cookie_Monster
    Registered Users Posts: 24,475 ✭✭✭✭Cookie_Monster


    trams in amsterdam have, on certain doors, spring loaded barriers that only open one way. An easy solution to cut down on chancers. It won't stop everyone but making that little bit more difficult will deter a lot of the scumbags


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    #127
    Victor
    Registered Users Posts: 78,290 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    Thread split. http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056748743

    Less of the baiting / sniping / outrage please.

    Moderator.


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    #128
    dfx-
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 15,665 Mod ✭✭✭✭dfx-


    MagicMarker wrote: »
    Looks good, I'm in Tallaght so I look forward to seeing these new buses on my route in 2019.

    Depends on where you are in Tallaght. Going by Ringsend last rare new buses in 2007, you might see them on the 49/65/65B in a few years. Otherwise, maybe 2030..


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    #129
    LordSutch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,078 ✭✭✭✭LordSutch


    Just saw a pristine GT going roung Loughlinstown roundabout in South Dublin (Friday 18:15), firstly I noticed the 12 plate from behind, then I noticed the distinctive rear lights (identical to the ones on the NBFL), finally I looked up at the rear blinds and it said something like not in service or not for hire? couldn't read it properly as it was pretty small.


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    #130
    AlekSmart
    Registered Users Posts: 14,005 ✭✭✭✭AlekSmart


    Terrontress wrote: »
    What are the consequences for drivers if this sort of fare evasion, or any for that matter, goes on?

    Surely the can't expect you to either leave the cab to challenge it.

    I've been on a bus in London where the driver has refused to move until the guy who got on the side doors leaves but I don't think London would be so bad for fare evasion as Dublin given the amount of people with travelcards.

    So if people jumping on by the middle doors increases is it best to ignore it and continue trying to provide the best service possible for those who have paid?

    Under the 1996 Dublin Bus Bye-Laws the responsibility for paying the correct fare or possessing the appropriate ticket rests with the Passenger.

    The Dublin Bus Busdriver would most certainly not be encouraged to leave the cab in pursuit of such evaders.

    Instead the procedure is to advise Central Control of the issue and be guided by the Controllers instructions.

    Personally I would be loath to ignore an obvious case of such Fare Evasion,as it sends a signal to others who may be contemplating it that it carries no risk.

    Once that view is established in an area or on a route then the notion of "best possible service" for the legitimate customer evaporates and the quality of service with it.

    Fare Evasion was always a major element in any Public Transport undertaking,with significant resources being allocated to Revenue Protection Units and Systems.

    However during our "Years of Plenty",a situation was allowed to prevail whereby it was deemed expedient to adopt a less confrontational,low profile approach to the issue,with IMO,disasterous results.

    What many "new generation"graduate programme,Managemers failed to realize was a reality that an operator must demonstrate that it has a degree of regard for it's own services,staff and equipment.

    This is complimentary to the modernist "Customer Care" ethos and is,in fact,an integral part of it.

    Sadly during the bountiful times entire groups of routes and areas of the City were allowed to become the playground of aggressive,demanding and downright demented individuals and gangs,who smoked,drank,spat and fought their way around the system to the detriment of the ordinary law-abiding farepayer,who simply abandoned the Bus service in favour of whatever alternatives could be financed.

    It is to our absolute shame that such wonderful enhancements such as the LUAS City West extension have already been allowed to stumble along the exact same road,with nobody appearing to have the stomach to challenge the savages who wish to dominate and control their "patch".

    The entire issue has to be treated with a degree of reasonableness,but I believe that if Operators show that they can and will protect the integrity of their services then we will see a gradual return to what should be normality.


    Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.

    Charles Mackay (1812-1889)



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    #131
    River Song
    Registered Users Posts: 355 ✭✭River Song


    On GT3 now, already quite dirty. Single seats are a new thing to be, having been on nothing but VGs for a good while. Not the worst, I think they're better than the VT's seating anyway. Loving the seats in front of the stairs, they have even more legroom than on the VGs (about 4 inches ha). One thing I'm noticing is that the RTPI sign shows the next stop once in motion, but shows the route and destination while stationary. Haven't noticed yet whether the middle doors have been used yet, getting off in Blackrock and only at Merrion Sq now.

    Hopefully they will wander off the 7s and onto my Donnybrook routes, though the chances of seeing one on an 17, 18, or 54a is quite slim I realise :P maybe the 83 one day...


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    #132
    etchyed
    Registered Users Posts: 674 ✭✭✭etchyed


    LordSutch wrote: »
    identical to the ones on the NBFL
    I don't understand your preoccupation with comparing this bus to the Borismaster, as if there's some great insight to be gained from doing so. The NBFL is a bespoke, custom-designed product.

    The Dublin Bus GT, on the other hand, is a bog-standard Wright Gemini, with a few modifications as requested by Dublin Bus. There are plenty of them in use already in this country, in the north and indeed in the rest of the UK, including in London. Any similarities you notice between the Gemini and the NBFL might have something to do with the fact that the body is manufactured by the same company. That's it. There's nothing else to be read into it.


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    #133
    LordSutch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,078 ✭✭✭✭LordSutch


    etchyed wrote: »
    I don't understand your preoccupation with comparing this bus to the Borismaster, as if there's some great insight to be gained from doing so. The NBFL is a bespoke, custom-designed product.

    But I didn't compare the GT to the NBFL, I only mentioned that the rear lights looked the same, and thats what caught my attention!


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    #134
    dublinman1990
    Registered Users Posts: 8,341 ✭✭✭dublinman1990


    I saw GT 16 with that mistake saying 7 Dalkey on the side display. The front and rear displays still look normal saying 8 Dalkey on the front and 8 on the back.

    I saw this at Temple Road in Blackrock just after 3pm.

    And I still haven't been on a GT yet despite seeing them for six times today. I am praying that I will get on at least one tommorow.

    On one of those occasions, there was one doing driver training near Mount Merrion.


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    #135
    monument
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,072 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    Just seen somebody on twitter giving out about the audio announcements all the way on the no 7.

    Are audio announcements for every stop not a bit much for local buses with many stops so close together?


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    #136
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users Posts: 17,562 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    As in London people will get used to them and block them out.

    I would view them as yet another useful aid for passengers


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    #137
    Joshycat
    Registered Users Posts: 82 ✭✭Joshycat


    Had to go to Ballsbridge today and ended up getting on GT4,the audio announcements gave the next stop in Irish and then in English,the display up the front was the same irish first then english although most of the time the bus was not at the stop when it was announced in english it was very close to the stop and didnt leave much time to press the bell if you were a tourist.One time it made an announcement asking passengers when they were getting off to use the middle doors however when i tried to get off at ballsbridge the bus was full and people were blocking the middle doors so i got of by the front door.


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    #138
    AlekSmart
    Registered Users Posts: 14,005 ✭✭✭✭AlekSmart


    Joshycat wrote: »
    Had to go to Ballsbridge today and ended up getting on GT4,the audio announcements gave the next stop in Irish and then in English,the display up the front was the same irish first then english although most of the time the bus was not at the stop when it was announced in english it was very close to the stop and didnt leave much time to press the bell if you were a tourist.One time it made an announcement asking passengers when they were getting off to use the middle doors however when i tried to get off at ballsbridge the bus was full and people were blocking the middle doors so i got of by the front door.

    This very point,which I feel is of no little importance,caused a flurry of activity earlier.

    However Joshycat clearly outlines the significant problem we have now engineered with our new "Customer Friendly" technology.

    The technology,combined with the reality of a busy urban bus route and an overabundance of Bus Stops combines to challenge common-sense and reality.

    A significant part of the problem appears to be the inflexibility of the OLA's requirements.

    This,combined with the actual length of the Irish Placenames is leading to the delay and confusion mentioned by Joshycat,as the English version,used by c.98% of customers,is now often out-of-sync with the actual Bus-Stop location.

    Solution ?

    Interpret the OLA's requirements as realistically liberal as possible in order to benefit as many actual passengers as possible.

    Either delete the Written Irish Placename OR delete the Aural Irish placename announcement.

    Result ?

    Clarity,useability,and the maintenance of a realistic presence for the Irish language which still allows for those who wish to undertake translation studies.

    NB: THIS SOLUTION WILL INCONVIENENCE A TOTALLY BLIND OR PROFOUNDLY DEAF CUSTOMER.

    This is unavoidable in the "Greater Good" context,sorry.


    Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.

    Charles Mackay (1812-1889)



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    #139
    etchyed
    Registered Users Posts: 674 ✭✭✭etchyed


    AlekSmart wrote: »
    Solution ?

    Interpret the OLA's requirements as realistically liberal as possible in order to benefit as many actual passengers as possible.

    Either delete the Written Irish Placename OR delete the Aural Irish placename announcement.

    Result ?

    Clarity,useability,and the maintenance of a realistic presence for the Irish language which still allows for those who wish to undertake translation studies.

    NB: THIS SOLUTION WILL INCONVIENENCE A TOTALLY BLIND OR PROFOUNDLY DEAF CUSTOMER.

    This is unavoidable in the "Greater Good" context,sorry.
    That's some pretty good thinking and would indeed be a pragmatic solution. Unfortunately I don't think even this would be in compliance with the OLA. Combined with the accessibility problems, I don't think it's a runner.

    As you may have gathered from my posts, I am generally in favour of the OLA and its provision for equal prominence between English and Irish on signage, public announcements, etc. However in this case I have to concede that, purely because of the proximity of Dublin Bus stops to each other, it's impractical. Given that the trials of passenger information systems on route 123 were in English only, I'd say it's reasonable to assume that management at Dublin Bus investigated the possibility of, or pressed for a derogation from, the rules. It seems it wasn't to be, and that's a shame.

    Apologies for going off-topic here, again, but I'm replying to AlekSmart's post.


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    #140
    etchyed
    Registered Users Posts: 674 ✭✭✭etchyed


    lxflyer wrote: »
    As in London people will get used to them and block them out.
    Exactly. As a tourist in London and Berlin, I have found audible announcements on buses to be tremendously useful. I have no problem with hearing them in Dublin.

    Can I ask someone who's been on one of these buses: have they included the words "next stop"/"an chéad stad eile" in the announcements? I hope not. It's obvious that what's being announced is the next stop; there's no need to say so.


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    #141
    dublinman1990
    Registered Users Posts: 8,341 ✭✭✭dublinman1990


    I got on GT 8 today on the 7 bound for Cherrywood, and I literally had to run to get it. There was also an AX on another 7 directly behind it at Temple Hill.

    My first impressions were positive.

    There were loads of seats available in it because a majority of passengers must have gone on the bus behind the GT. I have to say the seats are very impressive as I found them very comfortable.

    But not surprisingly, the middle doors were not used on it at all during my whole journey to Dun Laoghaire.

    The PA display on the lower deck was very clear. I thought they weren't too bad. I had a seen a notice on the display which said the following in the English & Irish translation which can be useful for passengers and tourists.

    "Notice - Please exit the bus by using the centre doors. Ramp exit only at front door".

    The Irish translation by using Google Translate is below.

    "Fógra - le do thoil amach as an bus trí úsáid a bhaint na doirse ionad. Rampaí scoir ach amháin ag an doras tosaigh".

    It was a short run on a GT, but it was a very sweet one overall.


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    #142
    etchyed
    Registered Users Posts: 674 ✭✭✭etchyed


    dublinman1990 wrote: »
    My first impressions were noticeable.
    Indeed.


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    #143
    Goonerette
    Registered Users Posts: 48 ✭Goonerette


    I have been on this type of bus at least 5 times now during rush hour and not once have I seen the middle doors used between CC and Blackrock. What was the point of getting them installed and thus having less seating downstairs if the drivers were going to ignore their existence anyway?


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    #144
    LordSutch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,078 ✭✭✭✭LordSutch


    A family friend of mine had a letter published in the Irish Times about twelve/thirteen years ago querying the usage (non usage) of the middle doors on Dublin bus. His letter was in the context that he had just been travelling around other countries and on their buses where he noted that people would enter by the front doors and exit by the middle doors! with his last stop being London where this procedure was enforced rigorously, he then travelled back to Dublin and noted that the middle doors all seemed to be unused and shut, hence his letter to the Irish Times.

    Several days later a reply was printed stating that "Mr Simpson need not worry about the middle doors on Dublin bus being closed, as they are shortly to phased out" in favour of having one set of doors at the front of the bus only . . . . .

    Interesting that all these years later and the middle doors are now back on Dublin bus, and yet this issue of closed doors has arisen again!


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    #145
    AlekSmart
    Registered Users Posts: 14,005 ✭✭✭✭AlekSmart


    etchyed wrote: »

    Can I ask someone who's been on one of these buses: have they included the words "next stop"/"an chéad stad eile" in the announcements? I hope not. It's obvious that what's being announced is the next stop; there's no need to say so.

    That is indeed the case etchyed,it's the full monty for each stop.

    All that is required here is a little pragmatism,as if the OLA is followed to the letter,we will yet again witness Irish as a meaningful language,being further marginalized and ridiculed.

    Are there no Gaelgeoiri out there who can see how in some scenarios,Less is in fact,MORE ?


    Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.

    Charles Mackay (1812-1889)



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    #146
    etchyed
    Registered Users Posts: 674 ✭✭✭etchyed


    LordSutch wrote: »
    A family friend of mine had a letter published in the Irish Times about twelve/thirteen years ago querying the usage (non usage) of the middle doors on Dublin bus. His letter was in the context that he had just been travelling around other countries and on their buses where he noted that people would enter by the front doors and exit by the middle doors! with his last stop being London where this procedure was enforced rigorously, he then travelled back to Dublin and noted that the middle doors all seemed to be unused and shut, hence his letter to the Irish Times.

    Several days later a reply was printed stating that "Mr Simpson need not worry about the middle doors on Dublin bus being closed, as they are shortly to phased out" in favour of having one set of doors at the front of the bus only . . . . .

    Interesting that all these years later and the middle doors are now back on Dublin bus, and yet this issue of closed doors has arisen again!
    Middle doors weren't opened for all those years because of a court ruling that bus drivers would be personally liable for any accidents/injuries occurring as a result of passengers alighting via middle doors. It became such common practice not to open middle doors that Dublin Bus started ordering buses without them. Fare evasion also may have had something to do with this decision, but that's speculation on my part.

    These new buses have been paid for by a grant/some similar transfer of funds from the National Transport Authority. They specified the middle doors as a condition of paying for the buses.

    I don't know what the legal situation is today, or indeed the trade union's current position on it. The above is very much a potted history, and I'm sure AlekSmart will be able to better fill you in.


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    #147
    etchyed
    Registered Users Posts: 674 ✭✭✭etchyed


    AlekSmart wrote: »
    That is indeed the case etchyed,it's the full monty for each stop.
    That's such a shame. "Next stop" is omitted in London, and it makes sense. The Dublin announcements are already twice as long because they're in two languages, so there's no need to make them even longer.


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    #148
    dfx-
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 15,665 Mod ✭✭✭✭dfx-


    AlekSmart wrote: »
    That is indeed the case etchyed,it's the full monty for each stop.

    All that is required here is a little pragmatism,as if the OLA is followed to the letter,we will yet again witness Irish as a meaningful language,being further marginalized and ridiculed.

    Are there no Gaelgeoiri out there who can see how in some scenarios,Less is in fact,MORE ?

    The more I'm hearing of these GTs (which I think of as just a VG with double doors) the more I'd rather AVs. I was on AV1 - which is on the list to be chopped for these - last night home from the match and it was excellent in its own inimitable way. Much prefer it.

    There was an RV on the 4 all evening/night, would've been an interesting picture to contrast the new GT and the RV passing each other.


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    #149
    AlekSmart
    Registered Users Posts: 14,005 ✭✭✭✭AlekSmart


    etchyed wrote: »
    Dublin Bus started ordering buses without them. Fare evasion also may have had something to do with this decision, but that's speculation on my part.

    These new buses have been paid for by a grant/some similar transfer of funds from the National Transport Authority. They specified the middle doors as a condition of paying for the buses.

    I don't know what the legal situation is today, or indeed the trade union's current position on it. The above is very much a potted history, and I'm sure AlekSmart will be able to better fill you in.

    To take the last bit first....

    The use of the Centre Door is governed by the 1992 Labour Court Recommendation LCR13884.

    It's worth reading as it is the factual situation at the moment.

    http://www.labourcourt.ie/labour/labcourtweb.nsf/afedb93f6ed4a54180256a01005bb357/80256a770034a2ab8025627500451c43?OpenDocument

    The actual recommendation is as follows.
    The evidence presented raised the concern of the Court as to the
    current safety of the operation of the centre doors of the bus
    fleet.


    It is the view of the Court that the operation of these doors as a
    normal feature should only be considered when the Company are
    perfectly satisfied that the safety arrangements agreed have been
    fully implemented and are effective, operationally.

    Subject to the above the Court considers that the centre doors
    should normally be operated. Recognising the responsibility of
    the Driver for his vehicle and passengers, whilst he should
    normally operate the centre doors, he should carry out this
    operation with prudence.

    Accordingly the Court considers that an
    instruction to compulsorily operate the centre doors at all times
    would be inappropriate.

    Since 1992,there has not been any meaningful improvement in Bus Stop design or general operating conditions,so I would suggest it would be a VERY brave Dublin Bus Manager who would declare him/her self "Perfectly Satisfied" as to the operational safety of ALL Bus-Stops.

    This can also be viewed in the context of the Full Safety Audit which was mentioned in the aftermath of the Wellington Quay disaster,as our Health & Safety perceptions have,if anything,become even more narrowly focused since 1992.

    BAC,in adopting a pragmatic specification approach in the light of the Labour Court ruling,took quite some note of research from London.

    The London Transport Users Council and other agencies had long been critical of LT's Double Deck specification as it,in most cases featured very little accessible seating in the Lower Saloon.

    This meant that a very significant group of people,not disabled,but of limited mobility,found themselves having to stand,as no accessible seating was available.

    This lack of seating,represented for some time,a large percentage of the total Bus related complaints to the LTUC (Now London Travelwatch).

    The Dublin standard design,as typfied by the AV,AX and EV vehicles maxed out on seating,a decision which sadly could not be supported by a simpler and faster fare system.

    I would suggest that the BAC spec has proven to be the most appropriate for the conditions prevailing in Dublin.

    Change that operating environment,and many things will follow on from that :)


    Men, it has been well said, think in herds; it will be seen that they go mad in herds, while they only recover their senses slowly, and one by one.

    Charles Mackay (1812-1889)



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    #150
    dublinman1990
    Registered Users Posts: 8,341 ✭✭✭dublinman1990


    It has been noted that GT 1 to 21 will enter full service on Monday.

    http://irishtransport.yuku.com/sreply/30282/Withdrawn-RVs#.UEvqXrKPUbA

    Not much time left for those RV's now as it seems.


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    #151
    etchyed
    Registered Users Posts: 674 ✭✭✭etchyed


    dfx- wrote: »
    The more I'm hearing of these GTs (which I think of as just a VG with double doors) the more I'd rather AVs. I was on AV1 - which is on the list to be chopped for these - last night home from the match and it was excellent in its own inimitable way. Much prefer it.

    There was an RV on the 4 all evening/night, would've been an interesting picture to contrast the new GT and the RV passing each other.
    Sorry, when bus enthusiasts talk like this, I really don't understand it. Not trying to be snippy; I genuinely don't understand. Why do you prefer an AV? What's inimitable about it?


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