Irish Language on Dublin Buses

lil5 · 04-09-2012 2:56pm #1

etchyed wrote: »

Or even have both displayed simultaneously? Or is there not enough space?

The display shows two lines of text as per the RTPI route info (sample for stop 478 below) in Irish for quite some time, then switches to English.

Top - Address (e.g. Merrion Road)
Bottom - Location (e.g. St. Vincent's Hospital)

etchyed wrote: »

Could someone who takes the 7 please take a picture of one of these screens ...

Will do if I get a chance (and phone is charged ...

)

noelfirl · 04-09-2012 4:12pm

From Dublin Bus Stuff http://www.dublinbusstuff.com/PhotoWeek/GTClass.html

bk · 04-09-2012 4:41pm

Oh, those RTPI screens are disappointing.

Would have been better had they used LCD screens like they do in Amsterdam. LCD screens can show far more information, not just the next stop, but the next 4 stops and the estimated arrival time at each stop.

Would be far more useful then these screens, specially given the frequency of stops in Dublin and the stupid useless Irish issue.

AlekSmart · 04-09-2012 4:57pm

bk wrote: »

Oh, those RTPI screens are disappointing.

Would have been better had they used LCD screens like they do in Amsterdam. LCD screens can show far more information, not just the next stop, but the next 4 stops and the estimated arrival time at each stop.

Would be far more useful then these screens, specially given the frequency of stops in Dublin and the stupid useless Irish issue.

The amount of NTA time and energy which the issue of the "Official Languages Act" has taken up is significant.

This extends to ALL on-bus signage both hard-copy and electronic.

One of the reasons we lag so far behind other more operationally astute systems is the extent to which our senior Public Transport administrative powers are prepared to bow to pressure from extremists.

In my opinion what could be a very valuable,useful aid to 100% of Public Transport users,has been effectively neutered by a requirement to make it fit the needs of c.40%

Try making sense of the statistics quoted here.....

http://www.irishcentral.com/news/Irish-now-the-third-most-spoken-language-in-Ireland-after-English-and-Polish-145200025.html

Simple clear text in the language of preference (English) would benefit far more potential customers and could be marketed as such...what we have been given,forces these customers to partake in mind-games to get any meaningful use out of the syatem.

etchyed · 04-09-2012 5:51pm

AlekSmart wrote: »

extremists

That's unnecessary and inflammatory.

etchyed · 04-09-2012 5:58pm

bk wrote: »

Oh, those RTPI screens are disappointing.

Would have been better had they used LCD screens like they do in Amsterdam. LCD screens can show far more information, not just the next stop, but the next 4 stops and the estimated arrival time at each stop.

I had wrongly assumed that they were using LCD screens, based on earlier specualation on this thread. Hence my wondering why both the Irish and English couldn't fit on the screen simultaneously. I agree that LCD screens could provide more sophisticated information. On the other hand, LEDs have better visibility.

As for the Irish language issue, the alternation between languages will just have to be sped up. Or perhaps there could be a compromise whereby the English appears for longer, but the Irish appears first (for maybe 3-5 seconds). This might appease the Gaelgoirs, whilst acknowledging the reality that the majority of passengers will depend on the English.

devnull · 04-09-2012 6:02pm

etchyed wrote: »

As for the Irish language issue, the alternation between languages will just have to be sped up. Or perhaps there could be a compromise whereby the English appears for longer, but the Irish appears first (for maybe 3-5 seconds). This might appease the Gaelgoirs, whilst acknowledging the reality that the majority of passengers will depend on the English.

I doubt that. I know one of them who is lobbying their TD and the government over the discrimination against the Irish language on Dublin Bus, claiming that the main display on the front and the side of the bus does not show the via line in Irish, and the fact that English is on the top line. They will request that the Irish is shown first and given equal time or more than the English.

etchyed · 04-09-2012 6:13pm

devnull wrote: »

I doubt that. I know one of them who is lobbying their TD and the government over the discrimination against the Irish language on Dublin Bus, claiming that the main display on the front and the side of the bus does not show the via line in Irish, and the fact that English is on the top line. They will request that the Irish is shown first and given equal time or more than the English.

Not really like with like. The person you know is complaining that the Irish doesn't appear on the via line at all. Having the Irish appear first on internal PIS gives it prominence over English. This should make having the English appear for slightly longer easier to swallow. I don't subscribe to the automatic assumption that all these people are extremists. Most people have the capacity for pragmatism.

devnull · 04-09-2012 6:20pm

etchyed wrote: »

Not really like with like. The person you know is complaining that the Irish doesn't appear on the via line at all. Having the Irish appear first on internal PIS gives it prominence over English. This should make having the English appear for slightly longer easier to swallow. I don't subscribe to the automatic assumption that all these people are extremists. Most people have the capacity for pragmatism.

You misunderstood.

The Display now shows something like

Dalkey
Deilginis

And flicks to

Dalkey
Via City Centre

They want it to change to this:

Deilginis
An Lar

then flick to

Deilginis
Dalkey

So basically the opposite of what we have now. If that can't happen they will no doubt push for something like this

Top Line: Deilginis
Bottom Line: flick between Dalkey / An Lar / Via City Centre

They believe only keeping the top (English) line visible all of the time it's discriminating against the Irish language and against the languages act.

bk · 04-09-2012 6:36pm

Which shows the absolute craziness of the Official Languages Act.

Reduces the usability of all signs and information, while being no use to anyone *

* I have heard of not a single person who speaks Irish and not English.

I'm of the opinion that the act should be changed to say that only Gaeltacht areas are bilingual or only in Irish.

A good example of this is Poland, where most signs are only in Polish (or Polish + English), while in Kashubian parts of the country signs are in Kashubian + Polish.

Works there, why did our politicians have to pander to an extreme minority.

etchyed · 04-09-2012 6:37pm

devnull wrote: »

You misunderstood.

I didn't.

They believe only keeping the top (English) line visible all of the time it's... against the languages act.

It is.

devnull wrote: »

They want it to change to this:

Deilginis
An Lar

then flick to

Deilginis
Dalkey

So basically the opposite of what we have now. If that can't happen they will no doubt push for something like this

Top Line: Deilginis
Bottom Line: flick between Dalkey / An Lar / Via City Centre

If that's what this acquaintance of your really wants (i.e. you're not exaggerating what they want) then it's completely mad. Although it would be in compliance with the Languages Act, as it gives more prominence to the Irish, equal prominence would enough to comply, and there is no reason in a predominantly English-speaking city to give more prominence to the Irish.

Similarly, if it's as people in this thread have described, and the English on the internal PIS barely appears before a bus reaches its stop, then Dublin Bus would still be in compliance with the OLA if they were to shorten the Irish phase on the display.

etchyed · 04-09-2012 6:38pm

bk wrote: »

Which shows the absolute craziness of the Official Languages Act.

It doesn't, because what devnull's acquaintance wants is not required under the Official Languages act.

AlekSmart · 04-09-2012 6:40pm

devnull wrote: »

I doubt that. I know one of them who is lobbying their TD and the government over the discrimination against the Irish language on Dublin Bus, claiming that the main display on the front and the side of the bus does not show the via line in Irish, and the fact that English is on the top line. They will request that the Irish is shown first and given equal time or more than the English.

etchyed: That's unnecessary and inflammatory.

I'm afraid etchyed,that my view has developed over quite a long period and is not specific to just the Public Transport arena either.

I have,overthe years,grown up with,known and socialized with many Gaelgeoiri.

Most of these folk ploughed a lonely furrow but never became strident or antagonistic with those people who's liking for,or affinity with,Irish as a language did'nt match their own.

I would fully support any and all realistic endeavours to make the Native Tongue more accessible for these silent Gaelgeoiri.

However,I have also brushed up against those matching Devnull's description,whose zeal is never more evident than when an opportunity to Impose their opinion arises.

They usually remain totally unaware that the mainstay of their "Irish above all" argument is based upon exactly that same level of Imposition by our former Colonial rulers...:(

When these people are seen to be able to frustrate real and quantifiable progress in any Public Arena by their ability to delay and impose their own percieved ideals,then I'm afraid my opinion of their antics remains unchanged.

LXFlyer · 04-09-2012 7:04pm

To be fair there has been a poster here from the Connemara Gaeltacht who revelled in telling us all on several occasions that he was going to ensure the OLA was applied rigidly by reporting both DCC and the NTA to An Coimisiúnéir Teanga. In fact he took exceptional pleasure in doing so and telling us all that he was doing it.

It is that attitude that I find nauseating. There is no need for it.

I'm proud to be Irish and of the fact we have our own language and heritage, but I fail to see the need to ram it down people's throats.

This frankly is an example of the OLA gone mad. There needs to be an element of common sense and practicality brought into the Act as this is costing the State and it's organisations excessive money that frankly we can ill afford right now.

etchyed · 04-09-2012 8:10pm

AlekSmart wrote: »

I'm afraid etchyed,that my view has developed over quite a long period and is not specific to just the Public Transport arena either.

I have,overthe years,grown up with,known and socialized with many Gaelgeoiri.

Most of these folk ploughed a lonely furrow but never became strident or antagonistic with those people who's liking for,or affinity with,Irish as a language did'nt match their own.

I would fully support any and all realistic endeavours to make the Native Tongue more accessible for these silent Gaelgeoiri.

However,I have also brushed up against those matching Devnull's description,whose zeal is never more evident than when an opportunity to Impose their opinion arises.

They usually remain totally unaware that the mainstay of their "Irish above all" argument is based upon exactly that same level of Imposition by our former Colonial rulers...:(

When these people are seen to be able to frustrate real and quantifiable progress in any Public Arena by their ability to delay and impose their own percieved ideals,then I'm afraid my opinion of their antics remains unchanged.

Fair point, well made.

Sometimes I worry, however, that some people's hostility towards having Irish on display more prominently on signage, public transport etc. is motivated not by an actual problem in principle with the notion, but rather their having had experiences similar to yours with awful people like those you describe.

There was a huge amount of kicking and screaming on this forum when the roadside RTPI displays had to be modified to display Irish. A few months on, and nobody cares any more. It doesn't actually affect anyone negatively, and the usability of the system is not affected.

My feelings in this instance are more mixed. For a system whose sole purpose is to give an early warning to passengers that they're approaching their stop, its functionality is severely compromised if people don't actually understand what it says on the display most of the time. I would like the Irish to be present in some form, but not in a way that causes problems like this.

dfx- · 04-09-2012 8:25pm

etchyed wrote: »

There was a huge amount of kicking and screaming on this forum when the roadside RTPI displays had to be modified to display Irish. A few months on, and nobody cares any more. It doesn't actually affect anyone negatively, and the usability of the system is not affected.

The bigger question there is did that modification delay the start of the system? If it did, then it did influence negatively.

LXFlyer · 04-09-2012 8:31pm

It didn't as the signs were always intended to be bi-lingual.

However the aforementioned individual from the Connemara Gaeltacht took the view that they were not adhering to the OLA in the testing phase, and took a complaint regarding the NTA to An Coimisiúnéir Teanga over this, while taking (in my view) excessive pleasure in telling us here that he was doing it, and also stating that he did not care if it caused additional delays/expense as all he was concerned about was that the OLA was complied with.

It's this sort of thing that drives most people mad frankly, as it is an "in your face" application of the law in a totally absurd manner.

AlekSmart · 04-09-2012 9:50pm

dublinman1990 wrote: »

Just to park aside the OLA argument for the moment, regarding DB and NTA.

As soon I was heading towards Monkstown on the AX which was a 7, There was a GT right behind it, I'd said in my head silently, "Ah, Bugger it".:mad:

Umm...dare I ask for a translation.....:eek:

bk · 04-09-2012 9:57pm

etchyed wrote: »

There was a huge amount of kicking and screaming on this forum when the roadside RTPI displays had to be modified to display Irish. A few months on, and nobody cares any more. It doesn't actually affect anyone negatively, and the usability of the system is not affected.

I'm not sure about that, I do find the RTPI signs to be less useful then they could otherwise be. I have to stand and wait for the sign to switch to English to see the destination.

I know it is a small thing, but it makes me hate the Irish Language a little bit more every time I see it. Specially with the large number of made up Irish names for places that have never had Irish names.

But as you say it is mostly the in your face nature of it all. For years we had bi-lingual signs where English was up top and Irish below in italic.

They were perfectly good signs and reasonable given that there are so few native Irish speakers in Dublin and 100% of people speak English. It was a practical solution.

But now to see all these signs replaced at great expense, with Irish up top and in the same font and style as English, making the sign less legible for the majority of people, makes me mad.

Also I've heard tourists comment that the older style signs were much nicer, the Irish in italic made it look flamboyant and interesting, while English was the practical side of the sign. We have lost that interesting utility.

LXFlyer · 04-09-2012 10:12pm

Do we really need to know this kind of stuff?

Frankly I think not.

etchyed · 04-09-2012 10:33pm

bk wrote: »

I'm not sure about that, I do find the RTPI signs to be less useful then they could otherwise be. I have to stand and wait for the sign to switch to English to see the destination.

You have to stand... at a bus stop? Forgive me for not seeing that as a problem. And surely by now you're familiar with the Irish names, if you're using the same routes even vaguely frequently.

bk wrote: »

I know it is a small thing, but it makes me hate the Irish Language a little bit more every time I see it.

See, how can you think it's OK to say something like that? How can you "hate" a language? Such a strong word to use. Fair enough, you can dislike (or even hate) its more militant proponents, but I just don't see how the language's existence, and its presence on some bus information displays, is any skin off your nose.

Specially with the large number of made up Irish names for places that have never had Irish names.

I agree that some of these are ridiculous.

Aaand I've succeeded in doing something I hate and dragging a thread even further off topic and into the OLA. Apologies.

L1011 · 04-09-2012 10:40pm

bk wrote: »

Specially with the large number of made up Irish names for places that have never had Irish names.

I remember going through a list of termini (albeit frequently the bus destination doesn't use the full name) at the time of the gloating language troll on here and about half of the DB termini do not have real Irish language names.

E.g. locally, the stop names for termini are "Kingsbry Junction" (1980s housing estate, no Irish name) "Opp Glenroyal Hotel (1990s hotel, no Irish name), "Salesians College" (no longer a terminus - but no Irish name) and so on. Not a single one had a legitimate Irish language name, but I'm sure something would have been made up to satisfy a few zealots.

bk · 04-09-2012 11:33pm

etchyed wrote: »

See, how can you think it's OK to say something like that? How can you "hate" a language? Such a strong word to use. Fair enough, you can dislike (or even hate) its more militant proponents, but I just don't see how the language's existence, and its presence on some bus information displays, is any skin off your nose.

Yes, years of having the Irish language jammed down my throat by hateful small minded zealous Irish teachers and now this nonsense has really turned me against the Irish language and all the petty small mindedness it has come to represent.

Cookie_Monster · 04-09-2012 11:57pm

bk wrote: »

Yes, years of having the Irish language jammed down my throat by hateful small minded zealous Irish teachers and now this nonsense has really turned me against the Irish language and all the petty small mindedness it has come to represent.

+1

Seanchai · 06-09-2012 12:54am

bk wrote: »

Yes, years of having the Irish language jammed down my throat by hateful small minded zealous Irish teachers and now this nonsense has really turned me against the Irish language and all the petty small mindedness it has come to represent.

Blah, blah, blah. Same old bitter, turgid, tumescent vitriol. Spot the loser. Have you enough scapegoats today for your own failures? Grow up, accept responsibility for your choices, your evident intellectual limitations and your issues. You're only a victim of your own hatred here.

Meanwhile, when will zealots like you stop supporting the forcing of the English language upon us throughout school and across society? As people like you ram your language down our throats and ears, deny us a right to communicate with this state via our language and attempt to impose your narrow monoglot anglophone world upon us via signs (and much else), and go apeshít when Irish people demand that signs be bilingual, bilingual, I won't hold my breath for enlightenment from your quarter, or that of your equally benighted fellow travellers.

The true fanaticism is from hate-filled, deeply insecure, narrow-minded, less educated English monoglots like you who go apoplectic at any sign of the Irish language being given equal recognition in this society to your English language. Mere equality and you lose the plot. That, my dear boy, is the real extremism in this. The fact that there are more of you is not an abnegation of that extremism: it merely confirms that it has morphed into a lynch mob mentality.

Seanchai · 06-09-2012 12:54am

MYOB wrote: »

... about half of the DB termini do not have real Irish language names.

E.g. locally, the stop names for termini are "Kingsbry Junction" (1980s housing estate, no Irish name) "Opp Glenroyal Hotel (1990s hotel, no Irish name), "Salesians College" (no longer a terminus - but no Irish name) and so on. Not a single one had a legitimate Irish language name, but I'm sure something would have been made up to satisfy a few zealots.

Indeed, yes indeed. And you know what is "a legitimate Irish language name" how, precisely? I look forward to all the Irish haters here demanding that every single name in Dublin which is an anglicisation of an Irish place be taken off signs because they aren't "legitimate" either - I certainly can't find most of them in the Oxford English Dictionary. "Glenroyal" sounds at least half Irish, Gleann, if not totally Irish Gleann Rí Liam. Salesian sounds like a very suspicious anglicisation of Les salésiens de Don Bosco. And so on ad infinitum. Not "real" English words at all.

The general bigotry, double standard and abject ignorance on this specific issue here can be summed up thus: Irish versions of non-Irish names = unacceptable; English versions of non-English names = acceptable. Contemptible stuff. When it comes to hating Irish-Ireland, the English trained you and your like-minded posters well.

Seanchai · 06-09-2012 1:00am

lxflyer wrote: »

To be fair there has been a poster here from the Connemara Gaeltacht who revelled in telling us all on several occasions that he was going to ensure the OLA was applied rigidly by reporting both DCC and the NTA to An Coimisiúnéir Teanga. In fact he took exceptional pleasure in doing so and telling us all that he was doing it.... This frankly is an example of the OLA gone mad. There needs to be an element of common sense and practicality brought into the Act as this is costing the State and it's organisations excessive money that frankly we can ill afford right now.

Yes, heaven forfend that the Irish language would be treated equally to your beloved English language in the signs throughout this state. "Madness" indeed. Jesus wept.

L1011 · 06-09-2012 2:04am

Seanchai wrote: »

Indeed, yes indeed. And you know what is "a legitimate Irish language name" how, precisely?

Because I live here. "Kingsbry" is named after King Construction that built it. "Glenroyal" is Glenkerrin Homes + Royal Canal, builders + where its beside. Salesians is the name in English of the organisation that runs the school the terminus was beside. Not one of them has any Irish-language equivalent other than something made up on the fly.

Seanchai wrote: »

The general bigotry, double standard and abject ignorance on this specific issue here can be summed up thus: Irish versions of non-Irish names = unacceptable; English versions of non-English names = acceptable. Contemptible stuff.

This is an English-speaking country, much as a tiny cohort of people try and deny. That is why we have English-language names.

Seanchai wrote: »

When it comes to hating Irish-Ireland, the English trained you and your like-minded posters well.

Paranoid xenophobia much?

L1011 · 06-09-2012 2:08am

Seanchai wrote: »

The true fanaticism is from hate-filled, deeply insecure, narrow-minded, less educated English monoglots

Pretty standard, wilfully ill-informed and vicious retort. Not wanting Irish to get the ridiculous level of support it gets compared to its ultra-minority status does not suggest that someone is either "less educated" or for that mattera monoglot.

I can actually speak Irish to a fairly acceptable level - I just have no need to. I can also read German, Dutch and Slovak (and hence to a lesser extent Czech). Care to continue claiming I'm a monoglot for wanting the main language of the country to get proper priority?

dfx- · 06-09-2012 4:53am

Shouldn't Seanchai be typing in Irish or at least in equal parts that he so desires?

Cookie_Monster · 06-09-2012 5:15am

dfx- wrote: »

Shouldn't Seanchai be typing in Irish or at least in equal parts that he so desires?

No, that's the great thing about boards, it doesn't have to abide by those loony rules and can insist everyone use English only. Huzzah!

Irish Language on Dublin Buses

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