Irish Rail - 4 Carriage DARTs and rising fares (speculation)

Africa · 05-09-2012 1:30pm

lxflyer wrote: »

Expecting a guaranteed seat in rush hour is living in cloud cuckoo land.

Stop focusing on the seat thing for goodness sake. I wouldnt always expect it but to never, ever get one does raise an eyebrow. People being left behind and the dangers caused by having the short trains not only on the platform but on the journey itself (BTW, to that poster that mentioned HOW, falling into other passengers, falling into the bars/fittings, dangers to children, and there are more. Thats off the top of my head) cause of full trains is much more of a concern.

LXFlyer · 05-09-2012 1:38pm

Well I suggest you get in touch with the Minister for Transport who is cutting the subsidies and leaving the operating companies with no option than cut costs in all to make up the revenue shortfall.

This is no different to the dilemma the health service and all of the public service is facing.

LXFlyer · 05-09-2012 1:41pm

Africa wrote: »

Stop focusing on the seat thing for goodness sake. I wouldnt always expect it but to never, ever get one does raise an eyebrow. People being left behind and the dangers caused by having the short trains not only on the platform but on the journey itself (BTW, to that poster that mentioned HOW, falling into other passengers, falling into the bars/fittings, dangers to children, and there are more. Thats off the top of my head) cause of full trains is much more of a concern.

Can I ask, have you commuted in other cities abroad?

LXFlyer · 05-09-2012 1:42pm

I'd certainly agree that there ought to be signage designating where trains will stop and the displays should indicate if the train is short.

lil5 · 05-09-2012 1:47pm

lxflyer wrote: »

Well I suggest you get in touch with the Minister for Transport who is cutting the subsidies and leaving the operating companies with no option than cut costs in all to make up the revenue shortfall.

This is no different to the dilemma the health service and all of the public service is facing.

The operating companies, the health service and the public service are all great in cutting front line services first before they would even think about touching any of their own perks or non-core businesses.

bikeman1 · 05-09-2012 1:54pm

Losty Dublin wrote: »

bikeman1 wrote: »

So how come in most UK stations they have stop boards along the platform to instruct the drivers where to stop their train depending on the length of it. The problem with the DART is some drivers are excellent, drive properly, on time, stop their 4 cars at the main entrance to the platform and others do not. One day a four car will stop in one place the next it will go all the way to the end. I am aware that IE told them to do that, which shows they are unsure of their drivers to stop their train in a safe location.

The default place is to stop as close to the top of the platform as possible. Visual aids such as mirrors and CCTV monitors to watch passengers are located there and these have been found to be best over time from driver and management consultation over time. Where a train stops after braking will depend on the speed when the brake is applied and when exactly it is applied so there will be a little variance in a exact spot.

bikeman1 wrote: »

Also many drivers receive emergency brake applications on a delay basis and let the ATP slow down their train which is not correct. I have travelled on the DART everyday into and out of work for over 5 years now. Some drivers are very poor, while others are excellent.

The ATP can and will override and apply the train brake at specific times a driver has no control over it. Emergency brakes are never applied to stop a train at a station; believe me but you'd know one of them if ever it happens as they are very sudden and extreme in nature.

I never said emergency brakes are used to stop a train at a station. But drivers do use the ATP to slow down a train. For example, coming into Malahide some drivers fly in over the points and let the ATP kick in which slows the train down quite severely to 5mph as it is approaching a red. Not very professional in my opinion.

Also you can have emergency brakes put in after failing to acknowledge the ATP causing the DART to come to a stop, before eventually resetting and continuing on.

If IE are that concerned about costs they shouldn't have bought so many 22s that they don't need.

Also the amount of empty stock movements between Connolly and Drogheda, Heuston and Portlaoise is crazy. Massive fuel bill. And the weekly joke of an 071 going light engine Drogheda - Connolly on a Friday, then used as a taxi for a Dundalk driver to get home on Saturday after working the Belfast and then going light engine back to Drogheda for Monday. How much fuel is that wasting??

After obvious cuts are made elsewhere it is a joke running 4 car darts at peak times.

monument · 05-09-2012 1:55pm

foggy_lad wrote: »

They are dangerous because they are not designed to have people standing in large numbers apart from just inside the doors otherwise they would have seating along both sides instead of the current intrusive seating arrangement and thousands of grab rails and hanging loops for people to hold onto.

...
Having people running along the platforms in a panic to catch a train is DANGEROUS!

bk wrote: »

I also agree that it is crazy making people run down the length of the platform to catch a DART. It is definitely very dangerous.

Any danger on the railways should be reported!

Report it here rather than just posting on boards: http://www.rsc.ie/

Africa · 05-09-2012 2:00pm

lxflyer wrote: »

Can I ask, have you commuted in other cities abroad?

I am quite well travelled, and can state that our main city transport is shambles compared to rural parts of Europe. Lets put it this way; I was in Netherlands a couple of weeks ago. I flew to Amsterdam, and had to make 2 connections as I was going to a rural part of Netherlands. Longest I had to wait was 3 minutes between my 3 trains, every passenger got a seat, and it had enough carriages. It completely blew it out of the water. I have seen and experienced the same in my travels in France, Germany, Italy, USA and many more.

Now for my question, since you wanted to know about me; do you work for IE, or are you a government member?

Further to your point; I have tried, and surprise surprise, no response. Funny how you mention the health sector which has just done a 180 when a no-confidence vote was coming through.

IE is a black hole of money; wasted money on so many unnecessary admin jobs, pointless construction or improvement jobs, pointless advertising schemes and so much more. As a commuter, what I want, is a train, which is not too uncomfortable, for a decent price. Varadkars decisions have seriously damaged the trainlines and the numbers of commuters and growing complaints are showing that.

EDIT: Just to point out, it is shambles. LUAS has helped a bit, but it was quite poorly executed overall. Lets keep on topic though; this is about the 4 train carriages being dangerous, inefficient and causing customers to leave the services.

foggy_lad · 05-09-2012 2:08pm

monument wrote: »

Any danger on the railways should be reported!

Report it here rather than just posting on boards: http://www.rsc.ie/

Irish Rail are well aware of the dangers and well able to report it themselves!

LXFlyer · 05-09-2012 2:12pm

lil5 wrote: »

The operating companies, the health service and the public service are all great in cutting front line services first before they would even think about touching any of their own perks or non-core businesses.

With respect I think that's rather unfair.

As i understand it the CEO of Irish Rail was one of the few public sector CEO's to take a reduction in his salary.

As for other cost cutting measures - how would you or I know? We only see the frontline items, the other ones tend to be far less visible.

LXFlyer · 05-09-2012 2:13pm

I have no connection whatsoever with any public transport company as I've posted here many times.

Africa · 05-09-2012 2:16pm

lxflyer wrote: »

I have no connection whatsoever with any public transport company as I've posted here many times.

I dont post here much, and hadnt seen. But from the way you post, I am surprised you arent to be honest.

end of the road · 05-09-2012 2:40pm

bikeman1 wrote: »

the weekly joke of an 071 going light engine Drogheda - Connolly on a Friday, then used as a taxi for a Dundalk driver to get home on Saturday after working the Belfast and then going light engine back to Drogheda for Monday.

WDF? tell me more, lucky driver to have a 071 as a taxi home.

foggy_lad · 05-09-2012 3:15pm

end of the road wrote: »

WDF? tell me more, lucky driver to have a 071 as a taxi home.

Isn't there a 201 used to ferry staff between Heuston and Inchicore?

Losty Dublin · 05-09-2012 3:19pm

bikeman1 wrote: »

I never said emergency brakes are used to stop a train at a station. But drivers do use the ATP to slow down a train. For example, coming into Malahide some drivers fly in over the points and let the ATP kick in which slows the train down quite severely to 5mph as it is approaching a red. Not very professional in my opinion.

Also you can have emergency brakes put in after failing to acknowledge the ATP causing the DART to come to a stop, before eventually resetting and continuing on.

Drivers don't use ATP to brake a train; it kicks in automatically under certain programmed situations. Even so, should ATP or indeed CAWS need to make a brake application then it it made with the train brake and not an emergency brake as you have inferred.

I don't know what your other points have to do with anything here so best to ignore them.

goingnowhere · 05-09-2012 3:55pm

As stated above the ATP does not use the emergency brake in normal operation

If a driver fails to acknowledge an ATP downgrade or the ATP views the full service brake as not decelerating the train at a sufficient rate the emergency brake will stop the train, and that does happen every now and again.

LXFlyer · 05-09-2012 4:18pm

Africa wrote: »

I dont post here much, and hadnt seen. But from the way you post, I am surprised you arent to be honest.

It's an area that I've a great personal interest in, but no professional connection to.

As someone who has been faced with the choice of making cuts myself, I can understand the dilemma facing these businesses. No one likes making cuts of any form, but sometimes frankly there may be no other option.

Where I would have a problem is if people are being left behind. There is a huge difference between having a less than comfortable journey than not being able to make he journey at all. At that point you potentially risk losing far more customers than the cost savings deliver.

bikeman1 · 05-09-2012 5:13pm

Losty Dublin wrote: »

bikeman1 wrote: »

I never said emergency brakes are used to stop a train at a station. But drivers do use the ATP to slow down a train. For example, coming into Malahide some drivers fly in over the points and let the ATP kick in which slows the train down quite severely to 5mph as it is approaching a red. Not very professional in my opinion.

Also you can have emergency brakes put in after failing to acknowledge the ATP causing the DART to come to a stop, before eventually resetting and continuing on.

Drivers don't use ATP to brake a train; it kicks in automatically under certain programmed situations. Even so, should ATP or indeed CAWS need to make a brake application then it it made with the train brake and not an emergency brake as you have inferred.

I don't know what your other points have to do with anything here so best to ignore them.

Well Losty I invite you to travel everyday into Malahide as I do on the DART and say that some drivers don't use ATP to slow the train down, because that's exactly what happens. Not professional.

You don't what my other points refer to? We are talking about IE running 4 car darts to save money. I suggested that they should look at cost savings elsewhere.

The fact is a huge diesel bill is generated by a poor decision to move all maintenance to Portlaoise. Drogheda is not too bad, but there still are a lot of empty workings.

bikeman1 · 05-09-2012 5:26pm

end of the road wrote: »

bikeman1 wrote: »

the weekly joke of an 071 going light engine Drogheda - Connolly on a Friday, then used as a taxi for a Dundalk driver to get home on Saturday after working the Belfast and then going light engine back to Drogheda for Monday.

WDF? tell me more, lucky driver to have a 071 as a taxi home.

The 16:50 Dublin - Belfast / 20:10 Belfast - Dublin is worked by a Dundalk driver on certain days. One of those days is a Saturday. Normally the roster is to travel home on the 22:37 departure from Connolly. However on a Saturday this service doesn't run. The driver would be out of hours if he waited until the 23:37 home as he wouldn't book off until after 01:00. So IE's answer is to use an 071 to get him home, which has to be positioned on a Friday evening from Drogheda. This poor planning must waste some amount of fuel.

It could be resolved by using a Connolly man like happens on some of the days.

Good news one of the 4 car trains during the summer is running as a 6 car this evening. Sense might be prevailing....

Jamie2k9 · 05-09-2012 5:30pm

Good news one of the 4 car trains during the summer is running as a 6 car this evening. Sense might be prevailing....

Or it could just be more people back in work/education as happens every September and the larger trains are used again.......

The fact is a huge diesel bill is generated by a poor decision to move all maintenance to Portlaoise. Drogheda is not too bad, but there still are a lot of empty workings.

Some positives from that also as ICR sets based in Cork, Limierick etc only have to travel to Portlaoise and not to Dublin for maintance. If a train is in difficulty then maintance can travel to it easier as the location is very central have had a few call outs to Athy/Carlow/Limerick J. Lots of sets due for maintance operate as passenger services ie. 18.05 and 18.40 in evenings and some morning services also. All maintenance is not carried out in Portlaoise and many services start in Portlaoise in mornings so all in all the fuel bill wouldn't be overly large as many are scheduled services.

n97 mini · 05-09-2012 5:32pm

bikeman1 wrote: »

This poor planning must waste some amount of fuel.

There was an 071 on the docks that was left running 24/7, I'm not sure if it's still the case, but I doubt very much if there aren't other locos around the place also left running 24/7.

Victor · 05-09-2012 6:03pm

schemingbohemia wrote: »

The fact that you think you "should" get a seat is idiotic

You might tone down this comment.

Moderator

end of the road · 05-09-2012 6:58pm

to be honest the argument of demand at peak times being lower is redundant as in the summer the demand at peak times doesn't decrease that much. the colleges schools and some businesses are closed but people still are traveling to and from the beach or where-ever
having trains from places like cork limerick waterford and tralee traveling to port laoise for maintenence makes sense as drogheda would be to far. having trains from rosslare and other services operating out of connolly traveling to drogheda makes sense as port laoise would be to far.

Losty Dublin · 05-09-2012 8:03pm

bikeman1 wrote: »

Well Losty I invite you to travel everyday into Malahide as I do on the DART and say that some drivers don't use ATP to slow the train down, because that's exactly what happens. Not professional..

For the last time, ATP applies the brake itself under certain circumstances. Drivers are not using it at a braking tool in spite of what you think.

Cookie_Monster · 05-09-2012 10:05pm

lxflyer wrote: »

As I posted long ago in this thread, my understanding is that this is an energy cost saving measure. I assume the savings must be fairly large to make it worthwhile.

it would want to be alright to offset all the lost revenue from pissed off customers who won't use the DART anymore

People do need to realise that the transport companies are facing serious funding issues with fuel costs rising and subsidies falling. The shortfalls need to be made up somewhere.

And like most businesses wages are the biggest cost in IE, start there; or procurement, or capex on stupid things or irrelevant wifi and other nonsense or useless services down west etc. cutting capacity by up to 50% on their busiest routes is hardly the answer

Full trains are not dangerous - yes they might be less comfortable, but I fail to see anything dangerous. And yes I have commuted on full standing buses and trains and know exactly what it's like.

The only point I'd make on this is the report of the odd fainting due to heat and lack of air from crowding on DARTs, you hear about it from time to time on here or the news.

Expecting a guaranteed seat in rush hour is living in cloud cuckoo land.

not on most IE routes it's not these days

monument · 05-09-2012 10:16pm

Africa wrote: »

...this is about the 4 train carriages being dangerous...

If it is dangerous report it to the Railway Safety Commission. Otherwise you seem to be hyping the danger for your cause.

foggy_lad wrote: »

Irish Rail are well aware of the dangers and well able to report it themselves!

Apparent or alleged offenders generally don't report them self to the police or a safety authority.

If you think something is a danger to passengers then it's up to you to report it. That's how the system works. If you're bothered coming on here claiming something is a danger then why not also contact the RSC with your concerns?

Africa wrote: »

Lets put it this way; I was in Netherlands a couple of weeks ago. I flew to Amsterdam, and had to make 2 connections as I was going to a rural part of Netherlands. Longest I had to wait was 3 minutes between my 3 trains, every passenger got a seat, and it had enough carriages.

You can't compare intercity / regional rail where people do generally get a seat to the suburban service where people are expected to stand.

It's also highly unrealistic to expect Ireland to be on par with the Netherlands given:

One has and continues to invest in rail, while the other as neglected its railways even in boom times,
One has highly planned towns and cities which are generally planned around railways, and the other country is planned around roads

Africa wrote: »

Now for my question, since you wanted to know about me; do you work for IE, or are you a government member?

You were not asking me, but my answer is: No.

Africa wrote: »

pointless construction or improvement jobs,

Such as?

Most people in the Netherlands don't go around calling rail investment pointless.

Africa wrote: »

pointless advertising schemes

Such as?

LEIN · 06-09-2012 7:40am

Only seen 6 and 8 car DART's this morning.

CIE · 06-09-2012 7:54am

DD9090 wrote: »

Only seen 6 and 8 car DART's this morning.

Pressure's on, eh?

Wait until the need arises for ten-car DARTs. Will they close the railways on weekends again, to lengthen the platforms?

Wote · 06-09-2012 8:36am

CIE wrote: »

DD9090 wrote: »

Only seen 6 and 8 car DART's this morning.

Pressure's on, eh?

Wait until the need arises for ten-car DARTs. Will they close the railways on weekends again, to lengthen the platforms?

It's not always necessary to have a full Weekend possession to do that. We installed modular platforms on the Thameslink line which necessitated overnight possessions in stages over a number of overnights when the Midland Mainline was being lightly used.

bk · 06-09-2012 8:46am

CIE wrote: »

Wait until the need arises for ten-car DARTs. Will they close the railways on weekends again, to lengthen the platforms?

I hope they will go the opposite direction, shorter, but more frequent DARTS.

Irish Rail - 4 Carriage DARTs and rising fares (speculation)

Comments