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Keep abortion out of Ireland

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    #1472
    Sonics2k
    Registered Users Posts: 8,239 ✭✭✭Sonics2k


    qrrgprgua wrote: »
    Why don't we kill half the kids in africa to avoid their suffering? They are in a FAR worse situation that europe.. Is abortion the answer or just a selfish act.

    Anyone else find the irony of this statement astounding?

    I mean, I know it's off-topic. But it's the Church and religious authorities across Africa that tell these people not to use contraceptives, and thus making the situation and spread of AIDS much worse.


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    #1473
    Fanny Cradock
    Registered Users Posts: 10,245 ✭✭✭✭Fanny Cradock


    FullblownRose wrote: »
    I didn't. I asked if someone was being sarcastic in giving that as a reason for their own abortion.

    My apologies.

    So, if it could be established that the reason for abortion was gender selection, e.g. they didn't want any more boys in the family, how do pro-abortionists view this reasoning?


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    #1474
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    oldrnwisr - It seems like most abortions that take place in the UK don't take place for any of those 4 reasons.


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    #1475
    Fanny Cradock
    Registered Users Posts: 10,245 ✭✭✭✭Fanny Cradock


    Sonics2k wrote: »
    Anyone else find the irony of this statement astounding?

    I mean, I know it's off-topic. But it's the Church and religious authorities across Africa that tell these people not to use contraceptives, and thus making the situation and spread of AIDS much worse.

    The RCC also dogmatically promotes sex only within the context of monogamous marriages. If people are happy to ignore these and other curious RCC teachings then I think it's reasonable to assume that they aren't going to bother about what the church says on condoms.

    But, yes, this is off topic.


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    #1476
    FullblownRose
    Registered Users Posts: 1,501 ✭✭✭FullblownRose


    Fanny Cradock wrote: »
    My apologies.

    So, if it could be established that the reason for abortion was gender selection, e.g. they didn't want any more boys in the family, how do pro-abortionists view this reasoning?


    I can't answer for anyone else.

    From a personal point of view it seems an unlikely reason to to terminate pregnancy and for me, gender wouldn't be a consideration, but that's just me - obviously not everyone has the same mentality in common .


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    #1477
    Fanny Cradock
    Registered Users Posts: 10,245 ✭✭✭✭Fanny Cradock


    FullblownRose wrote: »
    I can't answer for anyone else.

    From a personal point of view it seems an unlikely reason to to terminate pregnancy and for me, gender wouldn't be a consideration, but that's just me - obviously not everyone has the same mentality in common .

    You might as well have told me that you prefer vanilla ice-cream to chocolate.

    So what about others? Anyone willing to hazard an opinion?


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    #1478
    Sonics2k
    Registered Users Posts: 8,239 ✭✭✭Sonics2k


    Fanny Cradock wrote: »
    You might as well have told me that you prefer vanilla ice-cream to chocolate.

    So what about others? Anyone willing to hazard an opinion?

    Most people have stated their opinion numerous times, but if you really wish to go down this particular route and lower the debate even further, then sure.

    The vast majority of Pro-Choice people in Ireland support abortion if it will result in the direct health/life of the mother, or if there is a very high chance the child will be born with a highly severe disorder which will result in a short, painful and horrible life.
    If the mother (and father if possible) agree that the best route is for an abortion, then so be it.

    If they decide to keep the child and spend what time with it they, then so be it.

    Personally, not allowing the birth of the child due to 'cosmetic' feature such as hair/eyes is a bad choice, because there is no direct risk to either parent or child.


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    #1479
    Sonics2k
    Registered Users Posts: 8,239 ✭✭✭Sonics2k


    Fanny Cradock wrote: »
    The RCC also dogmatically promotes sex only within the context of monogamous marriages. If people are happy to ignore these and other curious RCC teachings then I think it's reasonable to assume that they aren't going to bother about what the church says on condoms.

    But, yes, this is off topic.

    I'll briefly answer this here, but can take it up via pm if you wish.

    AIDS is now a major, major problem in Africa.
    You cannot stop people from having sex, it's impossible, especially in such a place of misogyny and cultural reasons.

    However, educating them about safe sex and contraception will lower the amount of children born with HIV and lower the spread of the disease substantially.

    Thus you are saving lives, which I'm sure would be what a 'loving' God would want?


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    #1480
    Brer Fox
    Registered Users Posts: 244 ✭✭Brer Fox


    The reality is different. With condom use, both unwanted pregnancies and AIDS infection increase.

    On another angle...


    Sonics2k wrote: »
    I'll briefly answer this here, but can take it up via pm if you wish.

    AIDS is now a major, major problem in Africa.
    You cannot stop people from having sex, it's impossible, especially in such a place of misogyny and cultural reasons.

    However, educating them about safe sex and contraception will lower the amount of children born with HIV and lower the spread of the disease substantially.

    Thus you are saving lives, which I'm sure would be what a 'loving' God would want?


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    #1481
    Sonics2k
    Registered Users Posts: 8,239 ✭✭✭Sonics2k


    Brer Fox wrote: »
    The reality is different. With condom use, both unwanted pregnancies and AIDS infection increase.

    After that utterly ridiculous statement, I strongly advise you educate yourself... no wait. Get someone else to do it. Someone who know's what they are talking about.


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    #1482
    HamletOrHecuba
    Registered Users Posts: 676 ✭✭✭HamletOrHecuba


    Sonics2k wrote: »
    After that utterly ridiculous statement, I strongly advise you educate yourself... no wait. Get someone else to do it. Someone who know's what they are talking about.

    Condoms break, condoms slip off; they really are not the wisest form of contraception especially when people are drunk or on drugs. The Pill can also effect some women's bodies very badly. No contraceptive is 100 per cent.

    Presenting condoms as a magical way to have fun without any consequences is not the wisest thing in the whole world.


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    #1483
    Sonics2k
    Registered Users Posts: 8,239 ✭✭✭Sonics2k


    HamletOrHecuba wrote: »
    Condoms break, condoms slip off; they really are not the wisest form of contraception especially when people are drunk or on drugs. The Pill can also effect some women's bodies very badly. No contraceptive is 100 per cent.

    Presenting condoms as a magical way to have fun without any consequences is not the wisest thing in the whole world.

    I don't recall anyone saying they are 100% safe. In fact it'd be incredibly naive to even think they're 100%. But the fact of the matter is that they are far safer than no contraceptives. This cannot be argued.

    And frankly, your post does nothing to defend the insanity of Brer Foxes post.


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    #1484
    HamletOrHecuba
    Registered Users Posts: 676 ✭✭✭HamletOrHecuba


    Sonics2k wrote: »
    I don't recall anyone saying they are 100% safe. In fact it'd be incredibly naive to even think they're 100%. But the fact of the matter is that they are far safer than no contraceptives. This cannot be argued.

    And frankly, your post does nothing to defend the insanity of Brer Foxes post.

    Look Brer's point is that if you throw out condoms to impressionable they are much more likely to take stupid risks than if you didnt; is that insane?


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    #1485
    FullblownRose
    Registered Users Posts: 1,501 ✭✭✭FullblownRose


    Fanny Cradock wrote: »
    You might as well have told me that you prefer vanilla ice-cream to chocolate.

    So what about others? Anyone willing to hazard an opinion?

    Well, that's the best I can do when asked to give a view when I don't know what the general consensus is. Sorry it's not the answer you were hoping!


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    #1486
    oldrnwisr
    Registered Users Posts: 1,594 ✭✭✭oldrnwisr


    philologos wrote: »
    oldrnwisr - It seems like most abortions that take place in the UK don't take place for any of those 4 reasons.


    Well, let's see.

    In 2010 in the UK, there were 196,109 abortions performed. Of this figure 6535 were performed on non-residents and 189,574 on residents.

    The reasons given for abortions were outlined in the following categories:

    A the continuance of the pregnancy would involve risk to the life of the pregnant woman greater than if the pregnancy were terminated (Abortion Act, 1967 as amended, section 1(1)(c))

    B the termination is necessary to prevent grave permanent injury to the physical or mental health of the pregnant woman (section 1(1)(b))

    C the pregnancy has not exceeded its twenty-fourth week and that the continuance of the pregnancy would involve risk, greater than if the pregnancy were terminated, of injury to the physical or mental health of the pregnant woman (section 1(1)(a))

    D the pregnancy has not exceeded its twenty-fourth week and that the continuance of the pregnancy would involve risk, greater than if the pregnancy were terminated, of injury to the physical or mental health of any existing children of the family of the pregnant woman (section 1(1)(a))

    E there is a substantial risk that if the child were born it would suffer from such physical or mental abnormalities as to be seriously handicapped (section 1(1)(d))

    F to save the life of the pregnant woman (section 1(4))

    G to prevent grave permanent injury to the physical or mental health of the pregnant
    woman (section 1(4))

    Now, categories F-G are emergency situations and not covered by the section of the statute posted previously. Categories A-E are the ones covered by the four sections of the act which I posted previously. The figures for abortions performed according to those categories are:

    A&B - 358
    C - 185,921
    D - 1,635
    E - 2,290

    This accounts for 100% of the abortions performed on UK residents. So contrary to your assumption, all abortions are performed for one of those four reasons.

    Here are the source statistics:

    Abortion Statistics: England and Wales 2010


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    #1487
    28064212
    Registered Users Posts: 10,486 ✭✭✭✭28064212


    qrrgprgua wrote: »
    There is already legislation to protect the mothers life. Are you saying since legislation has not been passed that there are woman dead because of the lack of it?
    Unsurprisingly, you're dodging the actual question posed yet again. How do you reconcile your statements of "respecting democracy", "VOX POPULI" and "will of the people" when you thought (wrongly) that they were supporting your position, with your opposition to legislation for a position that the electorate have voted on twice? The hypocrisy is staggering

    Provide me with a straight answer to these questions (if you're capable of it): do you support legislation that would provide for women to receive an abortion where suicide is a substantial risk to the life of the mother? If your answer is no, please explain why the will of the people should be over-ridden
    qrrgprgua wrote: »
    I am using the argument of democracy to show the fact the majority of the Population don't want on demand abortion
    And what exactly are you basing that on, given that the anti-abortion side has lost every vote on the issues?

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    #1488
    marienbad
    Registered Users Posts: 9,463 ✭✭✭marienbad


    HamletOrHecuba wrote: »
    Look Brer's point is that if you throw out condoms to impressionable they are much more likely to take stupid risks than if you didnt; is that insane?

    Yes it is . They are going to take ''stupid risks'' anyway - I know I did - so best to minimise the consequences.


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    #1489
    PDN
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    oldrnwisr wrote: »
    This accounts for 100% of the abortions performed on UK residents. So contrary to your assumption, all abortions are performed for one of those four reasons.

    I lived in the UK for a number of years. I personally know of a number of occasions where people received abortions for all kinds of trivial reasons (eg one girl was due to be a bridesmaid at a wedding and the dress wouldn't fit her if she continued with her pregnancy).

    So all those figures prove is that people will lie in order to get what they want, and that there are plenty of doctors who are prepared to connive with such lying.

    And this is an issue of great concern. I think most people in Ireland are open to abortion being performed in extreme cases (eg where the mother's life is genuinely at risk, or where the unborn child is a product of rape). But what has happened in other countries suggests that this will lead to virtual abortion on demand, for often trivial reasons and authorised with a nod and a knowing wink - and I think huge numbers of people in Ireland are not willing for that to happen.


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    #1490
    oldrnwisr
    Registered Users Posts: 1,594 ✭✭✭oldrnwisr


    PDN wrote: »
    I lived in the UK for a number of years. I personally know of a number of occasions where people received abortions for all kinds of trivial reasons (eg one girl was due to be a bridesmaid at a wedding and the dress wouldn't fit her if she continued with her pregnancy).

    So all those figures prove is that people will lie in order to get what they want, and that there are plenty of doctors who are prepared to connive with such lying.

    And this is an issue of great concern. I think most people in Ireland are open to abortion being performed in extreme cases (eg where the mother's life is genuinely at risk, or where the unborn child is a product of rape). But what has happened in other countries suggests that this will lead to virtual abortion on demand, for often trivial reasons and authorised with a nod and a knowing wink - and I think huge numbers of people in Ireland are not willing for that to happen.

    I wasn't attempting to prove anything about abortion just refute philologos' claim.

    I agree with you the reasons are probably trivial and performed with the complicity of doctors acting unethically. If you look at it 97.9% of all abortions were done on the basis of a threat to the mother's mental health.

    As for the Irish situation, yes I would be open to abortion in cases of medical necessity and rape but I am undecided about abortion on demand. My general feeling is that abortion for trivial reasons is wrong but I find the arguments on both sides are pretty poor.


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    #1491
    georgieporgy
    Registered Users Posts: 1,927 ✭✭✭georgieporgy


    Sonics2k wrote: »
    I'll briefly answer this here, but can take it up via pm if you wish.

    AIDS is now a major, major problem in Africa.
    You cannot stop people from having sex, it's impossible, especially in such a place of misogyny and cultural reasons.

    However, educating them about safe sex and contraception will lower the amount of children born with HIV and lower the spread of the disease substantially.

    Thus you are saving lives, which I'm sure would be what a 'loving' God would want?
    An earlier post suggested that rampant AIDS in Africa is largely due to habitual rape. Is there some way we can educate African rapists to practice safe rape/sex? Or should the men simply refrain from raping.

    In the one country(Uganda) where "put a condom on it" was abandoned in favor of monogamous relationships, AIDS rates declined. Sounds like a pretty successful and cheap cure for such a devastating disease.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/katine/2008/dec/01/world-aids-day-uganda


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    #1492
    PDN
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    georgieporgy wrote: »
    In the one country(Uganda) where "put a condom on it" was abandoned in favor of monogamous relationships, AIDS rates declined. Sounds like a pretty successful and cheap cure for such a devastating disease.

    Actually that isn't correct. The rate of infections fell in Uganda when the policy was ABC (Abstain from sex / Be faithful if you do not abstain / Use a Condom if you are not faithful)

    In the last few years the Ugandan authorities have swung more to abstinence only approaches and the prevalence of HIV/AIDS has actually risen again.

    Not sure what any of that has to do with abortion though!


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    #1493
    georgieporgy
    Registered Users Posts: 1,927 ✭✭✭georgieporgy


    PDN wrote: »
    Actually that isn't correct. The rate of infections fell in Uganda when the policy was ABC (Abstain from sex / Be faithful if you do not abstain / Use a Condom if you are not faithful)

    In the last few years the Ugandan authorities have swung more to abstinence only approaches and the prevalence of HIV/AIDS has actually risen again.

    Not sure what any of that has to do with abortion though!

    I don't know how we got sidetracked to talking about condoms etc.I'll have to reread the posts to see who widened the discussion. But as for the point you raise, it's covered in the previously linked article

    Last week, Dr Kihumuro Apuuli, director of the Uganda Aids Commission, said the country was facing a huge challenge to stem the tide of new infections.
    "Over the last four years, a mistake was made to shift focus to treatment, rather than prevention," he said at a press conference in Kampala. "A big chunk of money is allocated to drugs."


    Another problem of course is a lot of monogamous marriages include one infected individual. I guess such individuals should have been required to remain celibate instead of marryingfrom a public health point of view. That surely is preferable to aborting their infected children?


    if the crop has been damaged, better to start again with good seed. DELUGE anyone?


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    #1494
    PDN
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    georgieporgy wrote: »
    I don't know how we got sidetracked to talking about condoms etc.I'll have to reread the posts to see who widened the discussion. But as for the point you raise, it's covered in the previously linked article

    Last week, Dr Kihumuro Apuuli, director of the Uganda Aids Commission, said the country was facing a huge challenge to stem the tide of new infections.
    "Over the last four years, a mistake was made to shift focus to treatment, rather than prevention," he said at a press conference in Kampala. "A big chunk of money is allocated to drugs."

    Er, no, that doesn't cover the point I raised in the slightest. That refers to how much the emphasis should be focused on treatment (giving drugs to people who are already infected) or on prevention (which may include condoms or abstinence). It doesn't address the point about abstinence only or condoms.


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    #1495
    qrrgprgua
    Registered Users Posts: 786 ✭✭✭qrrgprgua


    PDN wrote: »
    Actually that isn't correct. The rate of infections fell in Uganda when the policy was ABC (Abstain from sex / Be faithful if you do not abstain / Use a Condom if you are not faithful)

    In the last few years the Ugandan authorities have swung more to abstinence only approaches and the prevalence of HIV/AIDS has actually risen again.

    Not sure what any of that has to do with abortion though!

    PDN.. If you use the work abstinence + sex in Ireland in the same sentence it would be drowned out as "The Church".. telling people what to do..

    Its a sad society where we can't even talk about responsible relationships without people thinking its religious reason.

    But with a Society moving to secular morals ... Abstinence is not a work they would use in their vocabulary.. They are all talk about choices and freedom.. But never want to deal with consequences and the effects of our choices. Pornography is fine.. yet it feeds a prostitution industry.. which feeds people trafficking. Sex is fine.. If you get pregnant have an abortion.. If you get an STD there are drugs to treat it.


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    #1496
    qrrgprgua
    Registered Users Posts: 786 ✭✭✭qrrgprgua


    Always worth noting that Ireland without Abortion is infact statistically the safest place in the world to have a Baby.


    Going by the experience of Irish medical experts which shows abortion is not needed to preserve the lives of mothers - whatever conditions arise during pregnancy.


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    #1497
    28064212
    Registered Users Posts: 10,486 ✭✭✭✭28064212


    qrrgprgua wrote: »
    Always worth noting that Ireland without Abortion is infact statistically the safest place in the world to have a Baby.


    Going by the experience of Irish medical experts which shows abortion is not needed to preserve the lives of mothers - whatever conditions arise during pregnancy.
    Wow, you are just reeling off your greatest hits repetitively despite already being told the actual facts that you have completely misinterpreted or just gotten plain wrong.

    The "safest place in the world to have a baby because we don't have abortion" myth was comprehensively disproven the last time you posted it here

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    #1498
    qrrgprgua
    Registered Users Posts: 786 ✭✭✭qrrgprgua


    28064212 wrote: »
    Wow, you are just reeling off your greatest hits repetitively despite already being told the actual facts that you have completely misinterpreted or just gotten plain wrong.

    The "safest place in the world to have a baby because we don't have abortion" myth was comprehensively disproven the last time you posted it here

    Why do you overlook 2011 figures and quote 2008's?

    Ireland without abortion is the safest place to have a baby


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    #1499
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 51,713 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    qrrgprgua wrote: »
    Why do you overlook 2011 figures and quote 2008's?

    Ireland without abortion is the safest place to have a baby

    oldrnwsr explained that the 2008 data is the latest available.

    If you can read this, you're too close!



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    #1500
    oldrnwisr
    Registered Users Posts: 1,594 ✭✭✭oldrnwisr


    qrrgprgua wrote: »
    Why do you overlook 2011 figures and quote 2008's?

    Ireland without abortion is the safest place to have a baby

    OK qrrprgua, have it your way. Here is this year's report covering statistics up to 2010.

    Trends in Maternal Mortality 1990-2010

    2010 stats from page 22 on.

    These new figures show that Ireland is now joint 11th in maternal mortality, down from 2nd in 2008. The WHO have already analysed the causal factors and abortion (save those performed illegally by untrained people) is not one of them.

    This time the safest country in the world is Estonia where again abortion is legal.


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    #1501
    qrrgprgua
    Registered Users Posts: 786 ✭✭✭qrrgprgua


    oldrnwisr wrote: »
    OK qrrprgua, have it your way. Here is this year's report covering statistics up to 2010.

    Trends in Maternal Mortality 1990-2010

    2010 stats from page 22 on.

    These new figures show that Ireland is now joint 11th in maternal mortality, down from 2nd in 2008. The WHO have already analysed the causal factors and abortion (save those performed illegally by untrained people) is not one of them.

    This time the safest country in the world is Estonia where again abortion is legal.


    Has one single pregnant woman died due to lack of abortion services? The numbers of woman who died during pregnancy are very small and they did not die because they were refused abortion.


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