Fiscal Treaty Megathread [Poll Reset]

Run_to_da_hills · 09-06-2012 6:45pm

Reuters on Euro news knew Irish referendum Fiscal Treaty result before the count.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r3DLYJS1fFU

dvpower · 09-06-2012 7:06pm

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Reuters on Euro news knew Irish referendum Fiscal Treaty result before the count.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r3DLYJS1fFU

There was an exit poll.

09-06-2012 7:26pm

Well almost every opinion poll was 60-40 in favour of a yes vote, no conspiracy there!

Well loking at Spain tonight it looks like we blew our chance to play hardball on improving the bailout deal. :mad:

BIG BAD JOHN · 09-06-2012 7:34pm

You have to wonder if we're really just rearranging deckchairs on the Euro Titanic.

gerryo777 · 09-06-2012 7:48pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Well almost every opinion poll was 60-40 in favour of a yes vote, no conspiracy there!

Well loking at Spain tonight it looks like we blew our chance to play hardball on improving the bailout deal. :mad:

Well, we might get another few crumbs after this and FG/Lab can claim it as another concession won by their skilful negotiating skills!

It's all spin by the spin-doctors/advisors, that's why we pay them so much, sure aren't they worth all their pay rises.

Happyman42 · 09-06-2012 8:25pm

K-9 wrote: »

Well, I'd have to question your rationale at reaching those conclusions!

I've defended welfare recipients on threads, attacked the rationale of slashing welfare, proposed the sacred cow of raising Corporation Tax, moaned about the Government deciding Income tax is sacrosanct, many other things.

A rationale is at question here, definitely.

You made a comment I responded. I don't file your previous posts. :rolleyes:

Happyman42 · 09-06-2012 8:31pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Well loking at Spain tonight it looks like we blew our chance to play hardball on improving the bailout deal. :mad:

I wouldn't be too embarassed about our dolts, we aren't alone, the ineptness all around Europe is shocking. They've conspired to destory the thing they were trying to save. A Confederacy Of Dunces! :rolleyes:

I think this place has the jump on us all!

http://www.independent.ie/video/video-irish-news/embrace-the-punt-3111939.html

PC CDROM · 09-06-2012 11:41pm

Happyman42 wrote: »

I wouldn't be too embarassed about our dolts, we aren't alone, the ineptness all around Europe is shocking. They've conspired to destory the thing they were trying to save. A Confederacy Of Dunces! :rolleyes:

I think this place has the jump on us all!

http://www.independent.ie/video/video-irish-news/embrace-the-punt-3111939.html

Our politicians are not "dolts" or stupid by any means. Nor are the rest

They are really clever as far as I can see. We think that they are trying their best to sort out problems and are stupid because of their actions but really all they are doing is looking after themselves and doing it very well.

All Enda and Co. are really concerned with is saving the Brussels Gravy train for when they have to get on it. They want their pensions and they wont risk messing up the EU for the "people" if it means fuking up their futures.

This whole Spain thing will play out interestingly. One thing I have read suggests that the EU etc want Ireland/Greece et al to go mental over the Spain package so they can "sell" that package to the Spanish people.

Look you got a good deal...look how p1ssed off the rest are. Be thankful!

squod · 10-06-2012 12:12am

PC CDROM wrote: »

They are really clever as far as I can see. We think that they are trying their best to sort out problems and are stupid because of their actions but really all they are doing is looking after themselves and doing it very well.

All Enda and Co. are really concerned with is saving the Brussels Gravy train for when they have to get on it. They want their pensions and they wont risk messing up the EU for the "people" if it means fuking up their futures.

Good point well made. The getaway government is pushing the boat out here and lying with both sides of their mouths.

Recent news from this group who were the first people from Ireland (government included) to ask for debt write-down.

Representatives from a number of Irish organisations, including the Ballyhea/Charleville bondholder bailout protest group, travelled to Frankfurt to take their demands directly to Mario Draghi, President of the ECB, during that body’s governing council meeting. These demands include the immediate destruction of all remaining promissory notes and the refunding of the two promissory notes already paid, which have cost Ireland over €6 billion.

This is the ECB dismissing claims from Kenny that a Yes vote will no be rewarded with a debt writedown

http://soundmigration.wordpress.com/2012/06/06/irish-debt-activists-at-ecb-as-draghi-rejects-debt-writedown-in-return-for-yes-vote/

Thanks again to everyone who voted FF/FG in the previous election for properly screwing up my country.

K-9 · 10-06-2012 1:30am

Happyman42 wrote: »

You made a comment I responded. I don't file your previous posts. :rolleyes:

Wouldn't expect that in fairness, when filing and categorising current posts seems a difficult enough task.

LaVail · 10-06-2012 4:42am

I skipped reading all this thread so I have a question....If, lets say Europe say they want Irish pensions or dole reduced by €100 per week, do the Irish government have to say and do what they're told and implement it?

Chips Lovell · 10-06-2012 7:41am

No, they don't.

BIG BAD JOHN · 10-06-2012 10:24am

Spain in for €100 billion. Where does all this "money" come from?

10-06-2012 10:28am

BIG BAD JOHN wrote: »

Spain in for €100 billion. Where does all this "money" come from?

The same place all fiat money comes from, out of thin air!
That is not a problem in itself, but we(or Spain) have to have growth to repay it and that's where the problem arises!

PC CDROM · 10-06-2012 10:39am

LaVail wrote: »

I skipped reading all this thread so I have a question....If, lets say Europe say they want Irish pensions or dole reduced by €100 per week, do the Irish government have to say and do what they're told and implement it?

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

No, they don't.

Isn't that what the referendum was for? Changing or rather adding to constitution so that it was legal for them to implement what ever they were told to "DO"?

"10° The State may ratify the Treaty on Stability, Coordination and Governance in the Economic and Monetary Union done at Brussels on the 2nd day of March 2012. No provision of this Constitution invalidates laws enacted, acts done or measures adopted by the State that are necessitated by the obligations of the State under that Treaty or prevents laws enacted, acts done or measures adopted by bodies competent under that Treaty from having the force of law in the State."

That is what I never got tbh. People where banging on this fiscal treaty but to me it was always about a very simple change to the constitution?

Scofflaw · 11-06-2012 11:07pm

PC CDROM wrote: »

Isn't that what the referendum was for? Changing or rather adding to constitution so that it was legal for them to implement what ever they were told to "DO"?

"10° The State may ratify the Treaty on Stability, Coordination and Governance in the Economic and Monetary Union done at Brussels on the 2nd day of March 2012. No provision of this Constitution invalidates laws enacted, acts done or measures adopted by the State that are necessitated by the obligations of the State under that Treaty or prevents laws enacted, acts done or measures adopted by bodies competent under that Treaty from having the force of law in the State."

That is what I never got tbh. People where banging on this fiscal treaty but to me it was always about a very simple change to the constitution?

No, that's taking far too broad a reading of the government's obligations under the Treaty. Only obligations specifically created by the Treaty are protected by the Constitutional amendment's protective clause, and that would not include specifics such as "lower the dole", because those are negotiable rather than obligations.

In respect of the Treaty itself, people often confuse the requirement for the governments to support EU Commission "proposals or recommendations" - unless, that is, a majority oppose them - with some kind of power for the Commission to insist on specific changes such as "lower the dole". No such power is created, because that section of the Treaty relates specifically to the Commission proposing that an "excessive deficit" be recognised and recommending an excessive deficit procedure be implemented. It doesn't mean that the government has to vote Yes to a Commission proposal on how to run the Irish economy.

So the Treaty did not create any power for the Commission to tell the government to do something specific like "lower the dole", and the Constitutional amendment would not protect such a negotiable item in any case.

cordially,
Scofflaw

EURATS · 12-06-2012 12:08am

Interesting to hear the fiscal treaty being described as worthless tonight on Vin B. surprise surprise. Spain and Italy are soon to eat up the ESM fund..time to pay up our €11 billion euro.
Congrats to the YES voters...on being guaranteed Irish lambs to the slaughter!!

Dave! · 12-06-2012 12:11am

You lost, go lick your wounds and try to retain a bit of dignity. You're embarrassing yourself.

EURATS · 12-06-2012 12:13am

Dave! wrote: »

You lost, go lick your wounds and try to retain a bit of dignity. You're embarrassing yourself.

I lost? Bullsh1t. Ireland lost. And will continue to do so for years to come!!!

One thing I did loose is respect for sheep!! And they all know who they are!!!

Scofflaw · 12-06-2012 12:17am

BIG BAD JOHN wrote: »

Spain in for €100 billion. Where does all this "money" come from?

Borrowed from the markets, in fact.

cordially,
Scofflaw

12-06-2012 8:14am

Scofflaw wrote: »

Borrowed from the markets, in fact.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Well I suppose all that ECB "bazooka" money had to turn up somewhere.

It's the same money just spinning around in the system, robbing peter to pay paul while running up the printing presses to pay John, and of course sending the bill to the taxpayers.

Where the hell is the growth going to come from to "create" the wealth to repay this enornous debt going to come from?

I have asked that question several time and

No one has the answer!

donegal_road · 12-06-2012 10:34am

it looks like the Spanish bailout hasn't worked out they way it had been intended

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/finance/2012/0612/1224317752909.html

Phill Ewinn · 12-06-2012 10:52am

donegal_road wrote: »

it looks like the Spanish bailout hasn't worked out they way it had been intended

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/finance/2012/0612/1224317752909.html

It's a pity Lenihan isn't alive. Shure he could have gotten them the cheapest bailout in history

12-06-2012 11:12am

donegal_road wrote: »

it looks like the Spanish bailout hasn't worked out they way it had been intended

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/finance/2012/0612/1224317752909.html

Saw this chart on thepropertypin, sums it up quite well.

It appears to have done a complete circle in less than three days! :eek:

donegal_road · 12-06-2012 12:22pm

Deleted User wrote: »

Saw this chart on thepropertypin, sums it up quite well.

It appears to have done a complete circle in less than three days! :eek:

they are making it up as they go along, its shambolic. The bank run is in full swing in Greece and Spain.

cbyrd · 12-06-2012 2:05pm

Well with Italy and Spain going to need some €720 billion, that's the ESM fund wiped out right there..so if we need another bail out where's the money coming from? I'm just a heartbeat away from taking all my money from the bank.. i'd rather have it in a dusty box then be fúcked over again by another failure of a government and their ineptness. I can guarantee there is no contingency plan if the Euro does go tits up ...

12-06-2012 2:10pm

cbyrd wrote: »

Well with Italy and Spain going to need some €720 billion, that's the ESM fund wiped out right there..so if we need another bail out where's the money coming from? I'm just a heartbeat away from taking all my money from the bank.. i'd rather have it in a dusty box then be fúcked over again by another failure of a government and their ineptness. I can guarantee there is no contingency plan if the Euro does go tits up ...

There IS a plan, but some people will be informed* before it's made public, just be sure to have your eggs in many baskets!

*"pss't we're dropping the euro this weekend shift your savings out now!" - will be whispered into the ears of the well connected

EURATS · 12-06-2012 2:13pm

dolanbaker wrote: »

cbyrd wrote: »

Well with Italy and Spain going to need some €720 billion, that's the ESM fund wiped out right there..so if we need another bail out where's the money coming from? I'm just a heartbeat away from taking all my money from the bank.. i'd rather have it in a dusty box then be fúcked over again by another failure of a government and their ineptness. I can guarantee there is no contingency plan if the Euro does go tits up ...

There IS a plan, but some people will be informed* before it's made public, just be sure to have your eggs in many baskets!

*pss't we're dropping the euro this weekend shift your savings out now!

There "IS" a plan? Care to share?

12-06-2012 2:18pm

EURATS wrote: »

There "IS" a plan? Care to share?

It's called wealth preservation and stuff averyone else!

There will very likely be a partial breakup of the Eurozone within the next year, simply because it won't be possible to bail out Italy.

Cyprus looks like it will be next.

There is insufficient growth to keep the current system operating, it will break and break soon.

donegal_road · 12-06-2012 2:25pm

hey.. stop talking down the ecomony! that kind of talk could cause a bank run you know.. a wise old Greek guy once told me μετακινήσετε τα χρήματά σας προς Καναδάς

Fiscal Treaty Megathread [Poll Reset]

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