Fiscal Treaty Megathread [Poll Reset]

MagicSean · 01-06-2012 4:58pm

DB10 wrote: »

I wonder if you treat your compatriots in the conspiracy theory forum, which you moderate, in the same manner. Personally I am not in the habit of conspiracies, I believe it is all there in black and white for anyone to grasp.

Review the media coverage, and electoral results in area detail and its all there. It's no conspiracy.

In fact I believe your own political ideological views are getting in the way here. I also believe buzz words like conspiracy are just an attempt to discredit my viewpoint.

If we are honest with ourselves, the YES side never accepted Lisbon 1, and wouldn't have accept a NO here either.

That's not right, fair or correct behaviour. I just feel like speaking out on the matter. If more people spoke out like me, this country could be great again. I just dont think the electorate fight for it enough, we accept it all.

While the "Yes" campaigners could be accused of scaremongering, the "No" campaign was full of blatant lies and deception. This is why they failed.

I don't know why people keep talking about Lisbon. The second vote was on an ammended proposal in which concession had been obtained. It wasn't the same referendum. If the country really didn't want it they could have voted no a second time.

DB10 · 01-06-2012 4:58pm

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

Does not compute

The evidence is there, how you wish to perceive it is up to you. I will hazard a guess you are a Yes voter.

Battered Mars Bar · 01-06-2012 4:58pm

Ironé wrote: »

I would love if someone could explain something to me - I'm seriously just interested in understanding people's viewpoint:

Care to explain anything yourself?

Ironé wrote: »

We are up the creek - we have a huge huge budget deficit. We need to borrow money every month to pay for example the bills for civil servants, teachers etc. I don't understand how we can get out of this without borrowing?

Oh right? Just borrow monies then

Ironé wrote: »

Businesses were out of control, but similarly so were normal Joe Soaps getting huge mortgages. I paid over the odds for our house but I feel I made my own bed and have to get my own way out of it. The banks didn't make me take the money.

Good on ya but there's a lot out there that feel they were forced into taking out these huge mortgages and shouldn't have to pay back their debts. Probably the same lot voting yes so they can get their big wad of bailout monies instead of taking personal respsonsibility.

Ironé wrote: »

We have gotten so much money from Europe over the years and have gotten so much infrastructure in return.

Nothing about a no vote would've lead to us leaving the EU and we'll get to keep our roads too believe it or not.

Ironé wrote: »

How do people expect these problems to be fixed so quickly? This is going to take time and is going to mean painful cuts - what is the alternative?

Alternative? oh right so borrowing monies was your suggestion then.

I don't know perhaps a higher corporate tax, perhaps stop shovelling billions into defunct banks and let them fail ta f*ck. Scrap Croke Park. Sort out the useless excess fat in public service...

DB10 · 01-06-2012 5:02pm

EURATS wrote: »

Bottom €uro now is...kenny has to prove the NO side wrong and the YES side right.

Hats off to the YES side..money is what makes the world go round. Doesn't matter what you have to do to get it. Sell your soul, your hôle or whatever you can find.

Good luck to Kenny...he'll need it!!

Agreed. Sadly money runs the world these days. Ironic that this treaty with its monetary backing was passed in the same month Man City won the Premier League, Chelsea won the European Cup, and Kildare GAA paid a transfer fee for Johnston from Cavan.

Those with money have it all, those without have nothing. Sad really. Our only hope in life is to hope on the gravy train if we can.

Naomh · 01-06-2012 5:06pm

DB10 wrote: »

Cork eh?

No surprise to me, certain areas of Cork are where the upper classes thrive as I previously mentioned. Full of arrogant FFers like Martin, English people and pensioners, who all vote for FF/FG. I feel sorry for the true Irish down there, living in that cesspool of discontent.

How someone who voted not to Lisbon could vote yes yesterday, beggars belief.

It really does. As I said, the areas of certain YES voters correspond with my political analysis that they are all upper class.

Wow, just wow.......

Never knew Cork had such an upperclass demographic :rolleyes:

humanji · 01-06-2012 5:07pm

DB10 wrote: »

I wonder if you treat your compatriots in the conspiracy theory forum, which you moderate, in the same manner. Personally I am not in the habit of conspiracies, I believe it is all there in black and white for anyone to grasp.

Review the media coverage, and electoral results in area detail and its all there. It's no conspiracy.

In fact I believe your own political ideological views are getting in the way here. I also believe buzz words like conspiracy are just an attempt to discredit my viewpoint.

If we are honest with ourselves, the YES side never accepted Lisbon 1, and wouldn't have accept a NO here either.

That's not right, fair or correct behaviour. I just feel like speaking out on the matter. If more people spoke out like me, this country could be great again. I just dont think the electorate fight for it enough, we accept it all.

You mean, if more people called anyone who disagreed with them either stupid or part of an "elite" then the country would be a better place? I'm going to have to disagree.

DB10 · 01-06-2012 5:08pm

Not all of Cork. Just some areas. Its all there in my political analysis a few pages back.

Just like some areas of Dublin like Dun Laoighaire and Blackrock.

Ironé · 01-06-2012 5:08pm

DB10 wrote: »

Cork eh?

No surprise to me, certain areas of Cork are where the upper classes thrive as I previously mentioned. Full of arrogant FFers like Martin, English people and pensioners, who all vote for FF/FG. I feel sorry for the true Irish down there, living in that cesspool of discontent.

How someone who voted not to Lisbon could vote yes yesterday, beggars belief.

It really does. As I said, the areas of certain YES voters correspond with my political analysis that they are all upper class.

LOL - where to start ...

Upper Classes - bad?, FF/FG voters (the majority of the electorate for a long time now) - bad?, English People - bad? ... I do agree with you on the pensioners - freeloading wasters!

I voted Yes and I am not 'Upper Class'. The people I talked to who said this was their first time voting Yes were from Dublin North West - a working class area.

I am disappointed you could not answer my questions - I was hoping to hear something other than emotive, 'idealistic', rubbish.

I know I will regret asking but who are the 'True Irish?'

DB10 · 01-06-2012 5:09pm

humanji wrote: »

You mean, if more people called anyone who disagreed with them either stupid or part of an "elite" then the country would be a better place? I'm going to have to disagree.

I have never accused anyone of being stupid.

What I meant was misinformation has caused people with lesser understanding of the treaty to vote yes in fear.

This is down the government and yes side parties.

Vita nova · 01-06-2012 5:11pm

getz wrote: »

i do not think it was rigged, but i found it rather strange to see that when some of the ballot boxes were being emptied on to the counting tables the ballot papers were neatly folded,either irish voters are very meticulous or

That's the way it's done over here. One ticks a yes or no, folds the ballot paper and then drops it in the ballot box. It ensures that nobody can a voter's choice between the booth and the box.

Ironé · 01-06-2012 5:16pm

Battered Mars Bar wrote: »

Oh right? Just borrow monies then

Em yes.

Battered Mars Bar wrote: »

Good on ya but there's a lot out there that feel they were forced into taking out these huge mortgages and shouldn't have to pay back their debts. Probably the same lot voting yes so they can get their big wad of bailout monies instead of taking personal respsonsibility.

How exactly was someone forced into taking a mortgage?

Battered Mars Bar wrote: »

Nothing about a no vote would've lead to us leaving the EU and we'll get to keep our roads too believe it or not.

So we as country are happy to just take as much as we can and then run when the going gets tough?

Battered Mars Bar wrote: »

Alternative? oh right so borrowing monies was your suggestion then.

I don't know perhaps a higher corporate tax, perhaps stop shovelling billions into defunct banks and let them fail ta f*ck. Scrap Croke Park. Sort out the useless excess fat in public service...

Ok so this is more what I was looking to understand. If we have a higher corporate tax would we not lose large amounts of multinationals who are based here? Therefore more people would be out of work?

I by no means have any good understanding of economics but I don't think it's as simple as letting the banks fail - again there would be huge loss of jobs but also from what I understand it would have a rippling effect througout the economy? Or am I just falling for fear mongoring?

Scrap Corke Park - I am with you there - I think it does need to be renegotiated - different times.

Excess fat in public service - agree with you 100% - I'd like to see an impartial analysis of public spending and see where things could be more efficient.

Naomh · 01-06-2012 5:16pm

DB10 wrote: »

The classes are divided. The working class people have voted no or succumb to the realisation that the upper classes cannot be stopped, they will have 10 referendums to get what they want.

The upper classes are protected by FF/FG so to keep their paw in the creme they voted yes.

We can see by analysing voting patterns, the poorer areas in Ireland, border regions etc have had the lowest turn out/highest no votes.

While the the elites in Dun Laoghaire, certain areas in Cork city etc have the highest Yes votes.

It's all there in black and white, there is a class warfare in this country. I have never seen such wide gaps in opinion, possibly looking in history to the civil war.

The middle classes have either voted yes in fear/stupidity which is down to the government, or refrained from voting.

The brightest and best are in Australia, this province of Germany makes me sick.

Worth bearing in mind that while quite a lot of professionals have gone to Australia, there is a higher proportion of people with trades and "lower level" degrees out there.

The rest of your post is pretty sensationalist tbh

humanji · 01-06-2012 5:16pm

DB10 wrote: »

I have never accused anyone of being stupid.

What I meant was misinformation has caused people with lesser understanding of the treaty to vote yes in fear.

This is down the government and yes side parties.

Yeah, you just called people stupid, right there.

DEFTLEFTHAND · 01-06-2012 5:21pm

DB10 wrote: »

Not all of Cork. Just some areas. Its all there in my political analysis a few pages back.

Just like some areas of Dublin like Dun Laoighaire and Blackrock.

Whats wrong with being upper class anyway? I mean if you've worked hard all your life and achieved wealth and status then good for you. If your lucky enough to be born into it then good for you as well.

Its the middle class who get fcuked. They pay for everything and are entitled to nothing.

Ironé · 01-06-2012 5:22pm

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

Whats wrong with being upper class anyway? I mean if you've worked hard all your life and achieved wealth and status then good for you. If your lucky enough to be born into it then good for you as well.

Its the middle class who get fcuked. They pay for everything and are entitled to nothing.

Absolutely - don't we want people to earn more money? The more money people earn the more they pay in tax.

AEDIC · 01-06-2012 5:22pm

DB10 wrote: »

If every single person was forced to vote it would probably have been a no vote.

Lol...at gun point perhaps? :rolleyes:

What evidence do you have to suggest that the majority of people who didnt vote at all would have voted No.... and...lets just stretch the reality a little further and say that you are right (and not for one second have you shown any proof that you are).... if they would have voted no.... why didnt they vote?

DB10 · 01-06-2012 5:24pm

The upper classes dont work hard.

Not in this country. Bertie Ahern, Sean Fitz, Davey Drumm. The whole of the RTE workforce and Sindo journos.

Watch Dublin Housewives on TV3 and tell me they work hard? Its all a D4 upper class bubble.

All paid for by me, the working man and those on the dole struggling to get by, with our taxes funding lavish lifestyles in the Blackrock.

DB10 · 01-06-2012 5:26pm

Ironé wrote: »

Absolutely - don't we want people to earn more money? The more money people earn the more they pay in tax.

The less they pay.

Just look at Seanie Fitz, Davey Drumm, Bono and Sean Quinn.

I pay more in VAT than these, and they are Irelands richest.

Its all a pyramid scheme, those at the bottom have no power. We are carrying the rest and sinking fast. Was life really meant to be like this?

AEDIC · 01-06-2012 5:28pm

donegal_road wrote: »

so you think that it was democratic of our government to threaten and scare people into voting the way the government wanted them to vote?? :rolleyes:

I think that it was democratic for both sides of the argument to put over whatever case it was that they had to strengthen their argument. That happened (opinions about biased media aside) and the people voted....

Democratically

DB10 · 01-06-2012 5:28pm

AEDIC wrote: »

Lol...at gun point perhaps? :rolleyes:

What evidence do you have to suggest that the majority of people who didnt vote at all would have voted No.... and...lets just stretch the reality a little further and say that you are right (and not for one second have you shown any proof that you are).... if they would have voted no.... why didnt they vote?

Location : Cork

Coincidence : No

Voted : Yes

Seriously though. Why bother your hole voting twice or three times, and wasting precious petrol, that people on the breadline cannot afford due to FG tax, when the result is inevitable.

Even if there was no vote we would have had to vote again anyway.

Battered Mars Bar · 01-06-2012 5:29pm

Ironé wrote: »

Em yes.

How exactly was someone forced into taking a mortgage?

You tell me, I said that sarcastically but that's the mentality of some of these people. Borrowed like crazy and don't think they should have to pay it back at all at all.

Ironé wrote: »

So we as country are happy to just take as much as we can and then run when the going gets tough?

We didn't take and run. We contributed to Europe too in our day, it wasn't all take take take. As for run, some of us never wanted to be here in the first place so I wouldn't see I for one as running.

Ironé wrote: »

Ok so this is more what I was looking to understand. If we have a higher corporate tax would we not lose large amounts of multinationals who are based here? Therefore more people would be out of work?

Possibly but the way I see it is why should we have to sell ourselves short to these multinationals. That's always the Irish mentality that we're not good enough to be playing with the big boys so lets get them here on the cheap. They're no good to us the way things are at the moment. But I'm sure these multinationals have a loyalty to us and won't just abscond like Dell did. Selling ourselves short isn't the answer, I'm sure the genius' of Dail Eireann can come up with innovative ways to keep them here.

Ironé wrote: »

I by no means have any good understanding of economics but I don't think it's as simple as letting the banks fail - again there would be huge loss of jobs but also from what I understand it would have a rippling effect througout the economy? Or am I just falling for fear mongoring?

Neither do I but Iceland did and they're doing better than us.

Ironé wrote: »

Scrap Corke Park - I am with you there - I think it does need to be renegotiated - different times.

Yay

Ironé wrote: »

Excess fat in public service - agree with you 100% - I'd like to see an impartial analysis of public spending and see where things could be more efficient.

If only, part of me wants the Germans here to cut this fat for us.

DB10 · 01-06-2012 5:29pm

humanji wrote: »

Yeah, you just called people stupid, right there.

I dont think I have. Scaremongering and misinformation from the yes side has caused a panic with people who dont understand the intrecitites of the treay to vote yes.

Ironé · 01-06-2012 5:30pm

DB10 wrote: »

The upper classes dont work hard.

Not in this country. Bertie Ahern, Sean Fitz, Davey Drumm. The whole of the RTE workforce and Sindo journos.

Watch Dublin Housewives on TV3 and tell me they work hard? Its all a D4 upper class bubble.

All paid for by me, the working man and those on the dole struggling to get by, with our taxes funding lavish lifestyles in the Blackrock.

That's a minority of people - I think most people agree that some of the RTE journalists get paid way too much.

Before I had a family I had a very well paid job - I did 6 years in college - paid for by myself (and of course with assistance of EU grants). I worked 10 years to get to that position. I worked 7 day weeks and was on call 24 hours. I worked very hard. There was noone in that company on high salaries that didn't work extremely hard. And they all paid large amounts of tax.

There is very few people out there who get money for nothing.

IrishAm · 01-06-2012 5:30pm

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

I mean if you've worked hard all your life and achieved wealth and status then good for you.

Worked hard for it lol? They were born into it. Most of their ancestors were Anglo-Irish gentry. Their lands should have been seized by the Free State army in 1922 and all land nationalised.

Frank Black · 01-06-2012 5:30pm

DB10 wrote: »

The less they pay.

Just look at Seanie Fitz, Davey Drumm, Bono and Sean Quinn.

I pay more in VAT than these, and they are Irelands richest.

Its all a pyramid scheme, those at the bottom have no power. We are carrying the rest and sinking fast. Was life really meant to be like this?

I doubt it.

IrishAm · 01-06-2012 5:32pm

Ironé wrote: »

- paid for by myself (and of course with assistance of EU grants).

Paid for yourself with grants you received you mean.

AEDIC · 01-06-2012 5:33pm

DB10 wrote: »

Location : Cork

Coincidence : No

Voted : Yes

Seriously though. Why bother your hole voting twice or three times, and wasting precious petrol, that people on the breadline cannot afford due to FG tax, when the result is inevitable.

Even if there was no vote we would have had to vote again anyway.

again...lol... How do you know what or even if, I voted?

Guessing?....making assumtions to suit your own agenda??

You even said yourself...not all people from Cork etc etc etc

Why vote at all if you think you are going to lose is basically what you are saying....? Good grief...

DB10 · 01-06-2012 5:34pm

All I read there was rabble rabble I got EU grants rabble rabble upper class high paid job rabble rabble I voted YES.

No offense but your obviously going to go to the side where your bread is buttered?

Ironé · 01-06-2012 5:37pm

Battered Mars Bar wrote: »

As for run, some of us never wanted to be here in the first place so I wouldn't see I for one as running.

The joys of living in a democracy

Battered Mars Bar wrote: »

Possibly but the way I see it is why should we have to sell ourselves short to these multinationals. That's always the Irish mentality that we're not good enough to be playing with the big boys so lets get them here on the cheap. They're no good to us the way things are at the moment. But I'm sure these multinationals have a loyalty to us and won't just abscond like Dell did. Selling ourselves short isn't the answer, I'm sure the genius' of Dail Eireann can come up with innovative ways to keep them here.

They're no good to us? They provide a lot of employment and the more of them that are here the more that are attracted to setting up here. The mulitinationals have no loyalty to us - they are only interested in profit.

I think we have to pay to our strengths - we are a small country - I disagree with you here - I think we need the low corporation tax rate to bring in companies.

I don't think that those in Dail Eireann are stupid necessarily. I just don't think it's all that straightforward. The great thing is we get to choose who represents us so next General Election should be interesting. I feel they are making slow and steady progress. I wish things like 'cutting fat' could happen quicker.

Ironé · 01-06-2012 5:39pm

IrishAm wrote: »

Paid for yourself with grants you received you mean.

The EU funded some courses in Ireland - It was a HDIP in IT 100% funded by the EU. As a student just out of college with no money I was very happy to get it.

3rd level fees were also free in Ireland - more or less.

Fiscal Treaty Megathread [Poll Reset]

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