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Sinn Fein- Never forget

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    #92
    fasttalkerchat
    Registered Users Posts: 5,652 ✭✭✭fasttalkerchat


    NinjaK wrote: »
    west brits in anti Sinn Fein shocker

    The shocking thing is the number of west brits on boards. I expected a good few around D4 or the old Trinity type but on boards it seems that around 20-40% have an anti-republican or self-loathing anti-Irish sentiment.


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    #93
    invinciblePRSTV
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,017 ✭✭✭invinciblePRSTV


    Monty Burnz wrote: »
    invinciblePRSTV wrote: »
    It was of course a rhetorical question, the answer being: many.
    Many??

    Eamonn Gilmore is probably one. Who else?

    Wrong on Gilmore. Off the top of my head - Nicky Kelly, Prionsias De Rossa.


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    #94
    murf313
    Registered Users Posts: 442 ✭✭murf313


    Whataboutery...???

    Basically all your post really states is " I hate sinn feinn...blah blah.... sinn fein are bad.... blah blah..... I cant believe people are voting for them... blah blah..."

    Just face it, sinn fein are on the rise and people like yourself are scared of change....


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    #95
    invinciblePRSTV
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,017 ✭✭✭invinciblePRSTV


    gaffer91 wrote: »
    invinciblePRSTV wrote: »
    That's some curious logic you've got going on there. In addition to you glossing over the violent histories of FF & FG on the basis of time, you're now downplaying the OIRA on the basis of 'scale', despite them being active during the same time period as the PIRA.

    Interesting perspective.

    OIRA declared a ceasefire in the early 70s did they not?

    Last killing attributed to the OIRA was mid 1980s afair.


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    #96
    whitelines
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 159 ✭✭whitelines


    fasttalkerchat wrote: »
    Actually it was loyalist attacks that brought PIRA support out in Belfast. In areas like the short strand people shunned the OIRA because they did nothing when loyalist attacks came.

    "You stop and we'll stop" - Loyalists said this for years and when PIRA finally did stop so did Loyalists. PIRA burnt their own communities and the laugh is those same communities vote for them.


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    #97
    fasttalkerchat
    Registered Users Posts: 5,652 ✭✭✭fasttalkerchat


    whitelines wrote: »
    "You stop and we'll stop" - Loyalists said this for years and when PIRA finally did stop so did Loyalists. PIRA burnt their own communities and the laugh is those same communities vote for them.

    I don't think there was a single sectarian killing by the IRA from when the LVF started killing Catholics to when the INLA ended their reign. Don't know where you got that logic from.


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    #98
    Crooked Jack
    Registered Users Posts: 5,678 ✭✭✭Crooked Jack


    gaffer91 wrote: »
    Good old whataboutery rears its head again. I notice most posts here don't bother dealing with what the anti-SF posters are saying but rather bring up unrelated issues.



    Good contribution. Especially the first two words. I take back everything I said.:rolleyes:

    Says the fella who just wrote "what about Kingsmills?" on page 5


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    #99
    invinciblePRSTV
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,017 ✭✭✭invinciblePRSTV


    fasttalkerchat wrote: »
    invinciblePRSTV wrote: »
    It was of course a rhetorical question, the answer being: many.

    So what have we learned then? simples, right from the foundation of the state and up through to the present day, men of violence, men who've fought against this very state have made the transition from that mindset to sitting at the cabinet table, in a government of a country they once violently opposed.

    There were some Labour-Republican crossover but I wouldn't have thought that many current Labour members were actively involved in the PIRA.

    PIRA? No. 'Old IRA' & OIRA? yes. See examples above.


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    #100
    Monty Burnz
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,455 ✭✭✭✭Monty Burnz


    invinciblePRSTV wrote: »
    Wrong. By my count 3 parties in the current Dail would have either a policy platform or membership which (formerly) supported Republican paramilitary activity.

    Of course that doesn't include FF/FG and their murky history.

    3 parties stand over political murder? Which 3?


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    #101
    Monty Burnz
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,455 ✭✭✭✭Monty Burnz


    murf313 wrote: »
    Just face it, sinn fein are on the rise and people like yourself are scared of change....
    ...and of course anything on the rise is a good thing...:confused:


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    #102
    invinciblePRSTV
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,017 ✭✭✭invinciblePRSTV


    Monty Burnz wrote: »
    invinciblePRSTV wrote: »
    Wrong. By my count 3 parties in the current Dail would have either a policy platform or membership which (formerly) supported Republican paramilitary activity.

    Of course that doesn't include FF/FG and their murky history.

    3 parties stand over political murder? Which 3?

    I wouldn't use such emotive, sunday independent-esque language myself but Labour, PSF & the ULA (via their SWP faction) would have members and/or policy positions who at one time or another supported Republican paramilitaries.


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    #103
    Monty Burnz
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,455 ✭✭✭✭Monty Burnz


    invinciblePRSTV wrote: »
    I wouldn't use such emotive, sunday independent-esque language myself but Labour, PSF & the ULA (via their SWP faction) would have members and/or policy positions who at one time or another supported Republican paramilitaries.
    The question was which parties STAND over political murder. Not 'which parties at some point in history may have had people who had some involvement with republican paramilitaries' or whatever question you want to answer.

    You may find the term 'political murder' very emotive, but if you have a better term for it I'd love to hear it. No amount of pseudo-intellectual waffle on your part will obscure the fact that there is a group of people in the Dáil who happily defend political (and sometimes apolitical) murder.


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    #104
    Crooked Jack
    Registered Users Posts: 5,678 ✭✭✭Crooked Jack


    gaffer91 wrote: »
    What the PIRA initially did, protecting catholic communities from loyalist mobs, was fine. What they did after the early years until the 90s was anything but.

    What? move from defensive to offensive. Move from beating back the symptoms of the problem to attacking the root cause. As unpalatable as it was for everyone the fact is Ireland would be a much worse place now had it not been for the IRA. I dread to think what my life would be like now had 90 years of Stormont misrule, RUC brutality, loyalist pogroms, British approval and Free State apathy gone unchecked.

    SF never did have much support though-when they did start fielding candidates for election they were consistently and resoundingly beaten by SDLP in the early years.

    I never said anything about Sinn Fein. I said the IRA had at best popular support and at worst silent consent from the majority of nationalists. Sinn Fein elections are a different issue. This tired old line about Sinn Fein and the IRA being one and the same is an old unionist throwback, Christ if they can get past saying Sinn Fein/IRA surely you can.

    Altnaveigh occurred after the war, in 1922, didn't it? Still despicable but it wasn't like those kind of massacres were occurring regularly from 1919-21 and people were still supporting the IRA. The 'campaign' in the 70s continued after and despite Kingsmill.

    They didnt occur regularly during the PIRA campaign either (at least not at the hands of the PIRA) which is why it was met with such revulsion. It has also been mentioned several times before, so im sure you know well, that Kingsmill was not sanctioned by IRA GHQ.

    The Old IRA were probably worse than than people think but still nowhere near as bad as the provos.

    Cant find the exact breakdown of the figures at such short notice but broadly in the War of Independence 2000 people died in 2 and a half years. 1969 to 1998 3000 die over 30 years.

    Sinn Fein and the IRA were two sides of the same coin. The likes of Gerry Adams, Ferris, McGuinness and Gerry Kelly up north were in the IRA. There is a lot of overlap. They are not separate entities.
    The only reason they were in prison in the first place was because they murdered a garda, so don't try and make out like they were doing people a big favour by serving their sentence.

    Again, no they were not. In fact there was at times a lot of animosity between the IRA and SF. They were both parts of the republican movement but neither was responsible for the other. It should also be remembered that SF were the main driving force behind the Peace Process and brought the IRA into it. Some cross over in membership but definitely separate entities.
    In regards Garda McCabe's killers, they served more than their sentence as they were entitled to be released in 1998 under the GFA. Sinn Fein also immediately and unreservedly denounced the     killing


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    #105
    Chucky the tree
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,341 ✭✭✭✭Chucky the tree


    Ellis Dee wrote: »
    If personal insults are what you get off on, be my guest. And I wonder just how you would define class?:rolleyes::rolleyes:

    How was it a personnel insult? I never said you lacked class, I said what you said lacked class. It did. It reads like "I'm not a racist but.." drivel tbh.
    Crooked Jack wrote: »
    Unlike the incredibly classy Sinn Fein - Never Forget? It's like something you'd see spray painted on a wall up the Shankill.

    I also felt that poster actually presented some interesting points that dont often get aired.


    I have no idea what was interesting about it. "at least he could defend himself" Well then, that makes it alright obviously. :rolleyes:


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    #106
    invinciblePRSTV
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,017 ✭✭✭invinciblePRSTV


    Monty Burnz wrote: »
    invinciblePRSTV wrote: »
    I wouldn't use such emotive, sunday independent-esque language myself but Labour, PSF & the ULA (via their SWP faction) would have members and/or policy positions who at one time or another supported Republican paramilitaries.
    The question was which parties STAND over political murder. Not 'which parties at some point in history may have had people who had some involvement with republican paramilitaries' or whatever question you want to answer.

    You may find the term 'political murder' very emotive, but if you have a better term for it I'd love to hear it. No amount of pseudo-intellectual waffle on your part will obscure the fact that there is a group of people in the Dáil who happily defend political (and sometimes apolitical) murder.

    Sorry, I thought we were here for some informed debate and discussion, not barstool expert bollocksology.

    My bad. Carry on spielling away.


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    #107
    Monty Burnz
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,455 ✭✭✭✭Monty Burnz


    invinciblePRSTV wrote: »
    Sorry, I thought we were here for some informed debate and discussion, not barstool expert bollocksology.

    My bad. Carry on spielling away.
    Well that's one way of running from the question. Bravo sir!


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    #108
    Chuck Stone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,030 ✭✭✭✭Chuck Stone


    Jesus will that man ever be left RIP by the anything-but-SF-brigade? Can you people name any other person who was killed in the troubles?

    They way Jerry Mc Cabe's killing is hijacked for political capital by people with some faux sense of outrage is really shameful.


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    #109
    Monty Burnz
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12,455 ✭✭✭✭Monty Burnz


    Chuck Stone wrote: »
    They way Jerry Mc Cabe's killing is hijacked for political capital by people with some faux sense of outrage is really shameful.
    I think the fact that you can't imagine that someone would be genuinely outraged by his murder and SF's support for his murderers speaks a lot more about you than it does about anyone else.


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    #110
    whitelines
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 159 ✭✭whitelines


    fasttalkerchat wrote: »
    I don't think there was a single sectarian killing by the IRA from when the LVF started killing Catholics to when the INLA ended their reign. Don't know where you got that logic from.

    Sorry, is that code for what did The IRA do in Omagh?


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    #111
    fasttalkerchat
    Registered Users Posts: 5,652 ✭✭✭fasttalkerchat


    whitelines wrote: »
    Sorry, is that code for what did The IRA do in Omagh?

    That was a splinter group opposed to Sinn Fein called the RealIRA.


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    #112
    charlemont
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,725 ✭✭✭charlemont


    whitelines wrote: »
    "You stop and we'll stop" - Loyalists said this for years and when PIRA finally did stop so did Loyalists. PIRA burnt their own communities and the laugh is those same communities vote for them.

    They brought down Sunningdale so they didn't mean what they were saying.


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    #113
    charlemont
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,725 ✭✭✭charlemont


    fasttalkerchat wrote: »
    That was a splinter group opposed to Sinn Fein called the RealIRA.

    Or even British intelligence. It wouldn't surprise me if there was truth to the rumour.


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    #114
    fasttalkerchat
    Registered Users Posts: 5,652 ✭✭✭fasttalkerchat


    charlemont wrote: »
    Or even British intelligence. It wouldn't surprise me if there was truth to the rumour.

    To some extent probably. But that's a thread for another day.


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    #115
    Sunnyisland
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,562 ✭✭✭✭Sunnyisland


    As SF rise & rise in the country's political arena,You can expect much more scutinity and hyterical threads like this one here. Bit like the time when MMG decided to run in the presidential race, I don't mind the scrutiny but its the complete one sided view of some of the posters here re the troubles/war/terrorism etc that happened in the last 3/4 decades,

    Never forget http://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=dublin%20bombing%20commeration%202012&source=web&cd=6&ved=0CGEQFjAF&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.dublinmonaghanbombings.org%2Fnews.html&ei=lxHFT6TYC5CLhQed0tiUCg&usg=AFQjCNGLofPrelekxsgl84wGKkqJz2oV1w


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    #116
    gaffer91
    Registered Users Posts: 1,167 ✭✭✭gaffer91


    invinciblePRSTV wrote: »
    Last killing attributed to the OIRA was mid 1980s afair.

    They had a few killings after the ceasefire alright. To say they did as much damage as the provos is ludicrous however. This is a side issue anyway.
    Crooked Jack wrote: »
    Says the fella who just wrote "what about Kingsmills?" on page 5

    My understanding of whataboutery is ignoring a legitimate point raised by countering it with something the other 'side' did. In that instance, I was pre-empting the myth that shinners like to perpetuate that the IRA never deliberately targeted civilians. There are other examples of course- Enniskillen, Pub bombings and so on.
    Crooked Jack wrote: »
    Again, no they were not. In fact there was at times a lot of animosity between the IRA and SF. They were both parts of the republican movement but neither was responsible for the other. It should also be remembered that SF were the main driving force behind the Peace Process and brought the IRA into it. Some cross over in membership but definitely separate entities.
    In regards Garda McCabe's killers, they served more than their sentence as they were entitled to be released in 1998 under the GFA. Sinn Fein also immediately and unreservedly denounced the     killing

    What a load of nonsense. If you can't accept that SF and the IRA were separate wings of the same movement then there is no hope. SF rarely condemned the IRA's actions and served as a mouthpiece for the movement. How often was Gerry Adams carrying the coffin of dead IRA 'volunteers'? But I suppose you probably don't even think he was in the IRA.

    SF were not the driving force for the peace process- People like John Hume and Fr. Alec Reid were. SF had to be treated with the kid gloves every step of the way in case they threw a tantrum and stormed out. The peace process as we know it would not have been necessary if it wasn't for SF and the IRA anyway.
    Monty Burnz wrote: »
    I think the fact that you can't imagine that someone would be genuinely outraged by his murder and SF's support for his murderers speaks a lot more about you than it does about anyone else.

    Well said. As I can see it, most of the shinners responses have been as follows:
    1. Get over Jerry McCabe.
    2. Shur, FF and FG also came from a background of violence, in the 20s and 30s and shur weren't the old IRA practically the same thing as the provos.
    3. The McCabe killers deserve a good pat on the back for not derailing the peace process.
    4. SF and the IRA were completely separate (lol).
    5. You're all west brits.
    6. Anything would be better than the current shower (they wouldn't).

    All of which are transparently nonsense.


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    #117
    gaffer91
    Registered Users Posts: 1,167 ✭✭✭gaffer91


    realies wrote: »
    As SF rise & rise in the country's political arena,You can expect much more scutinity and hyterical threads like this one here. Bit like the time when MMG decided to run in the presidential race, I don't mind the scrutiny but its the complete one sided view of some of the posters here re the troubles/war/terrorism etc that happened in the last 3/4 decades,

    Never forget http://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=dublin%20bombing%20commeration%202012&source=web&cd=6&ved=0CGEQFjAF&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.dublinmonaghanbombings.org%2Fnews.html&ei=lxHFT6TYC5CLhQed0tiUCg&usg=AFQjCNGLofPrelekxsgl84wGKkqJz2oV1w

    This is the whataboutery I'm talking about. What do the bombings have to do with voting for SF or not? Tell me, how many people involved in or who condone the Dublin/Monaghan bombings are running for election in the Republic of Ireland?


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    #118
    Chuck Stone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,030 ✭✭✭✭Chuck Stone


    Monty Burnz wrote: »
    I think the fact that you can't imagine that someone would be genuinely outraged by his murder and SF's support for his murderers speaks a lot more about you than it does about anyone else.

    I can imagine his family and other loved ones being outraged.

    As for people on internet forums who continuously condemn SF/Republicans/Nationalists at any opportunity?

    Well, tbh frank, no I can't imagine them being genuinely outraged. The very fact that they put the magnifying glass on one particular death of one of over 3000 is a clue to their motivations.


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    #119
    Sunnyisland
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10,562 ✭✭✭✭Sunnyisland


    whitelines wrote: »
    "You stop and we'll stop" - Loyalists said this for years and when PIRA finally did stop so did Loyalists. PIRA burnt their own communities and the laugh is those same communities vote for them.

    OT. Its a fact that the UVF where killing catholics in 1966 years before PIRA was created.

    whitelines wrote: »
    Sorry, is that code for what did The IRA do in Omagh?

    Once again for a loyalist/unionist supporter your grasp of what happened and who was responsible that day shows your clear lack of knowledge of who was doing what.


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    #120
    Crooked Jack
    Registered Users Posts: 5,678 ✭✭✭Crooked Jack


    Chucky the tree wrote: »
    I have no idea what was interesting about it. "at least he could defend himself" Well then, that makes it alright obviously. :rolleyes:

    That was one point out of several the poster made and I was merely pointing out that it was interesting to hear some other points on it rather than the usual hsyterical screaming from some people who could give a shit about Jerry McCabe or his family but just like having a nice emotive stick to beat SF with.
    In fact talking about class, as it seems to mean so much to you, there is nothing very classy about that at all. SF seem to be the only ones with any dignity on the matter. As soon as he was killed they condemned it outright and left his family to grieve unlike FF, FG, Lab etc..who like to drag his name up every time it looks like people might actually be beginning to listen to Sinn Fein's message


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    #121
    Crooked Jack
    Registered Users Posts: 5,678 ✭✭✭Crooked Jack


    gaffer91 wrote: »
    This is the whataboutery I'm talking about. What do the bombings have to do with voting for SF or not? Tell me, how many people involved in or who condone the Dublin/Monaghan bombings are running for election in the Republic of Ireland?

    What did Kingsmill have to do with Jerry McCabe. My God Metallica were right when they sang "the empty can rattles the most." You have made several comments whinging about whataboutery but you were the first person to employ it


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