How to revive the Irish language.

MysticalRain · 10-05-2012 9:03pm

Wild Bill wrote: »

OK. So let's just vote then!

If it goes against Irish then let's abandon it and say to the colonists - "you win, mission complete".

Mentioning Cromwell in a thread about the Irish language is the equivalent of Godwinning it.

I think one of the biggest problems with the Irish language is that it is closely tied in with nationalism. That tends to distort people's judgement on it, and makes any sort of rational debate impossible. Debates like these remind me of debates on American foreign policy with George Bush supporters back in the day. Even the mildest and most reasonable criticisms are perceived as "unpatriotic" or "anti-American". It's the same sort of mentality, just a different nationality.

foleypio · 10-05-2012 9:07pm

Wild Bill wrote: »

OK. So let's just vote then!

If it goes against Irish then let's abandon it and say to the colonists - "you win, mission complete".

this is part of the problem imo, people living in the past when Nationalism and Colonism was rife, people should be free to learn the irish language if they so wish. There is very little use for Irish outside Ireland and we pride ourselves on being a very open international economy. Maybe people who keep banging on about Irish need to get real. Also since were exporting most of our young population shouldnt we be giving them better skills to survive with then a language no1 outside gaeltacht areas speak anymore

MysticalRain · 10-05-2012 9:17pm

Wild Bill wrote: »

OK. So let's just vote then!

If it goes against Irish then let's abandon it and say to the colonists - "you win, mission complete".

I would also add that you typically don't hear Irish history geeks, GAA players, trad musicians, or Irish dancers invoking the patriotism argument as a stick to beat anyone who doesn't share their own passion for the particular aspect of Irish culture that they happen to be interested in. You should ask yourself why is that.

Wibbs · 10-05-2012 9:30pm

Wild Bill wrote: »

It gets tedious listening to those who wish to complete the work of cultural genocide that started with the plantations and progressed through Cromwell and the Famine to the dawn of the State.

OK. So let's just vote then!

If it goes against Irish then let's abandon it and say to the colonists - "you win, mission complete".

Seriously on this subject at least we really need build a fcuking bridge and march together over the bloody thing. At this stage it sounds akin to insecure adults blaming their upbringing and parents because they turned out to be twats. Personal responsibility bedamned.

They're gone. We kicked them out at the height of their power. We're a nation once again and proud of that we bloody well should be. We shouldn't be proud when we find ourselves still wittering and whining on about it today. The "colonists" are gone for nearly a century and Cromwell's head was dug up and put on a pike by the English themselves 300 years ago and we can feed ourselves better than any other state in the EU(certainly far better than England could if it was cut off). Let's let it go FFS.

The Welsh are still under those colonists of yours, largely ruled from London with an inbred flap eared sometime tampon substitute German masquerading as their minor monarch, yet they've a higher language penetration than we do. Let's face it in our case it's not all the hated engerlish's fault. The Jews lost the majority of their European number in the 40's because of that Austrian twat and regardless of what one thinks of them politically or morally are busy speaking Hebrew from essentially nothing* and built a country while they were at it. The former Soviet bloc countries kept their language and culture alive throughout their occupation. Men and women were shot and hanged for smuggling books FFS, yet the Russians are gone and their culture thrives in their leaving. We've had a century of the promotion of Irish culture. GAA and Music did fantastically well, because it seems we actually wanted both, but the Irish language has continued to contract. That folks is ultimately down to us, but hey it's all to easy to keep blaming others. To my mind anyway that's immature and lazy thinking.

TL;DR?

MysticalRain wrote:

You typically don't hear Irish history geeks, GAA players, trad musicians, or Irish dancers invoking the patriotism argument as a stick to beat anyone who doesn't share their own passion for the particular aspect of Irish culture that they happen to be interested in. You should ask yourself why is that.

Bingo.

*In many ways it's a constructed language, with barely a sniff of the continuity Irish can claim.

Brendan97 · 10-05-2012 9:33pm

or how about we just leave the poor language to die with dignity

Wibbs · 10-05-2012 10:20pm

Brendan97 wrote: »

or how about we just leave the poor language to die with dignity

Because it's not dying?

Iwasfrozen · 10-05-2012 10:35pm

Wibbs wrote: »

Because it's not dying?

It would without state help.

ViveLaVie · 10-05-2012 10:37pm

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

It would without state help.

What about all the people in the Gaeltacht that speak it?

golden lane · 10-05-2012 10:43pm

Wild Bill wrote: »

OK. So let's just vote then!

If it goes against Irish then let's abandon it and say to the colonists - "you win, mission complete".

me and my family were and are not colonists.......just people trying to make an honest living in this world.....

the time spent teaching o the irish language could have spent in a more advantage way.....and the money spent by the governmentt, could have been better used.........so get off your patriotic horse and live in the real world....

shame on you......

Iwasfrozen · 10-05-2012 10:44pm

ViveLaVie wrote: »

What about all the people in the Gaeltacht that speak it?

Their economy would collapse and migration would kill it off. Hell just look at how quickly it's receded with state support.

conor.hogan.2 · 10-05-2012 11:02pm

MysticalRain wrote: »

Windows is localized for Gaelic if nobody actually uses it. Irish newspapers might have their problems, but their readership is an order of magnitude greater than any magazine or newspaper published in Irish.

I do not know if Windows is localized to Scottish. Of course the usage is low, if you do not speak Irish you are hardly going to have your computer in Irish or read Irish language media are you?

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

It would without state help.

Eh no, if it has not died thus far I doubt the lack of state funding would kill it.

MysticalRain wrote: »

I think the proponents of the language tend of confuse support for the language in a general sense (which the vast majority of Irish people are in favour of) with keeping it compulsory. Similar to how they often perceive even the slightest criticism of the language, or government policy towards it, as nothing less than an attempt to wipe it out.

The majority do support it and until proven otherwise they also support keeping it compulsory?

BlaasForRafa · 10-05-2012 11:04pm

Wibbs wrote: »

Because it's not dying?

Lets kill the f

g off then, its more trouble than its worth.

Tomk1 · 10-05-2012 11:08pm

Irish today is nothing more than a hobby, just like arts & crafts, it just has no real praticallity in daily life. It has to be a cultural thing not a school passtime to survive.

In France n' others there is pride in their culture and launguage, maybe we just don't have pride in our historic Irish speaking culture, but we do have some pride in our English speaking Irish culture, as most of our greatest literature is written in English. Don't think I could name one famous Irish person whose primary launguage was Irish.

A nation once again, a fallacy that we were once a nation?
Grand notions & ideas like, must learn Irish, take up jogging, rock climbing, read 'war n peace' but after corrie, maybe next year.

The only way I can see it happening is if every TV show was dubbed in Irish, (like Germany, France, Spain...) maybe a start would be just having the option of selecting Irish audio or Irish as default and English option2.

conor.hogan.2 · 10-05-2012 11:10pm

Wild Bill wrote: »

And maybe we should have a referendum.

We should, but we won't and even if we did the smart money would be on the status quo remaining comfortably.

NoHarm1994 · 10-05-2012 11:22pm

Tomk1 wrote: »

Don't think I could name one famous Irish person whose primary launguage was Irish.

Thomas Kinsella made it his primary language because he had a passion for it

He was a Dub ie not a fluent speaker yet he made himself one. I think more people should take a leaf out of his book 'Is fearr Gaeilge briste ná Bearla cliste' mar a deirtear!

Also scrap the fúcking written Irish paper in the JC and LC. What good is it being able to write in a language if we can't speak it? Only oral examinations from Junior enfants to 6th year as far as I'm concerned would save the spoken language. Not to mention ending peoples fears of tuiseals and briathra :P

FrostyJack · 10-05-2012 11:23pm

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

It would without state help.

Let it die then. A waste of time and money. Let those who want to speak it, speak it and does that don't, don't. Chinese is a much more important language for children to learn. I don't see the people in the Gaeltacht lighting fires with flint or plowing fields with animals to "keep tradition alive".

MysticalRain · 10-05-2012 11:24pm

conor.hogan.2 wrote: »

I do not know if Windows is localized to Scottish. Of course the usage is low, if you do not speak Irish you are hardly going to have your computer in Irish or read Irish language media are you?

Perfectly true. It also contradicts the original point you tried to make.

The majority do support it and until proven otherwise they also support keeping it compulsory?

It's a slim majority going by the latest opinion polls. So it wouldn't take much for the majority to swing the other way.

dmcronin · 10-05-2012 11:28pm

Tomk1 wrote: »

The only way I can see it happening is if every TV show was dubbed in Irish, (like Germany, France, Spain...)

Dear God no. It's bad enough Spongebob is dubbed into Irish on TG4.

x_Ellie_x · 10-05-2012 11:32pm

Why can't we just let the language die? Barely anyone above school age can speak it. I think the government should quit spending so much money trying to revive it. That money should go to far better uses, like providing care for the eldery and disabled, etc. All languages will die out sometime and new ones come along to replace them. Gaelic has been slowly dying for the past century. I think its time to let it die in peace. Stop torturing the school kids with it!

LordSutch · 10-05-2012 11:38pm

NoHarm1994 wrote: »

Also scrap the fúcking written Irish paper in the JC and LC. What good is it being able to write in a language if we can't speak it? Only oral examinations from Junior enfants to 6th year as far as I'm concerned would save the spoken language. Not to mention ending peoples fears of tuiseals and briathra :P

As a critic of mandatory Irish in schools, I find myself in agreement with you re the fact that the written Irish paper is as total waste of time. Either its to be spoken, or not spoken, and currently its not, nor has it been for many decades. My theory has always been to have it taught properly to willing students who show promise (due to chosing Irish as a subject), these students would then leave school being able to converse in Irish while giving the language a more modern & positive image, hopefully then passing on this positive enthusiasm/image to those who choose not to do Irish. Sadly I guess this will never happen, and the status quo will go on and on . . . .

Wild Bill · 10-05-2012 11:48pm

Lot of twaddle about "nationalism" here. (We can be Irish nationalists and still toss Irish into the dustbin of history)

So, let's just vote, OK?

Complete the project of cultural genocide or preserve Irish. Simple choice folks.

At this stage I don't really care much anymore. (And the First National Language is on life support now).

But don't delude yourself that letting Irish die is anything else than the completion of part of the 1500 to 1900 English colonial project in Ireland.

Wild Bill · 10-05-2012 11:54pm

MysticalRain wrote: »

Mentioning Cromwell in a thread about the Irish language is the equivalent of Godwinning it.

There is a lot to be said for Godwinning :cool:

Historically literate folk will realise that only technology separated the Nazis from countless ethnic cleansers before them.

Modern 'politically correct' exceptionalism is bull.

Agent J · 11-05-2012 12:05am

Wild Bill wrote: »

Lot of twaddle about "nationalism" here. (We can be Irish nationalists and still toss Irish into the dustbin of history)

Or in other words. You can't address the points which have been put to you so you try to dismiss them.

Wild Bill wrote: »

So, let's just vote, OK?

Complete the project of cultural genocide or preserve Irish. Simple choice folks.

Hello Loaded question. Go ahead and sort out the referendum then.I'll wait.

Wild Bill wrote: »

At this stage I don't really care much anymore.

Of course you do. You just can't find an actual arguement which doesnt consist of stamping your feet and blaming the Brits so you are trying to pretend you don't care now.

Wild Bill wrote: »

But don't delude yourself that letting Irish die is anything else than the completion of part of the 1500 to 1900 English colonial project in Ireland.

You really have that little faith in Ireland?

Wild Bill wrote: »

There is a lot to be said for Godwinning

There is nothing to be said for Godwinning. Apart from showing a lack of an arguement.

MysticalRain · 11-05-2012 12:09am

Wild Bill wrote: »

There is a lot to be said for Godwinning :cool:

Historically literate folk will realise that only technology separated the Nazis from countless ethnic cleansers before them.

Modern 'politically correct' exceptionalism is bull.

Historically literate folk would also point out:

The majority of Irish people adopted English voluntarily without any compulsion. Modern day Irish people still show very little enthusiasm for speaking the language.

The Irish language has it's roots in the language of a previous invader (the Celts) and is a vastly different language to what was spoken in the 1600s.

Using the word "genocide" to describe making Irish an optional subject for the school curriculum does a grave disservice to the real Irish victims of genocide.

Wild Bill · 11-05-2012 12:22am

MysticalRain wrote: »

Using the word "genocide" to describe making Irish an optional subject for the school curriculum does a grave disservice to the real Irish victims of genocide.

The English re-conquest and occupation and plantation of Ireland 1500 - 1900 was a story of repeated physical and cultural genocide.

The fact many colonized people bend to the occupier in order to survive is a universal.

It's akin to a child abuse victim.

Denial of the harsh reality of Gaelic Ireland's miserable history doesn't change it.

If the majority today are prepared to ditch Irish (under the guise of abolishing compulsory Irish) so be it.

I really don't care anymore. But I'd still think on balance a vote would go in favour of Irish. I could be wrong.

So let's do it. :cool:

Ambient Occlusion · 11-05-2012 12:41am

Banning Irish as a subject is idiocy in it's purest form, suggesting that solution would only to dissatisfy a considerable number of people. Making it an optional subject might be wise, but banning it, no. There are people that do not want to learn and conversely there are many that do.

Reviving it needs social reform and effort from the general public, it's not solely up to the government. The anti-Irish sentiment should be suppressed in the media and discouraged at home. At least with that people in a few generations might be able to judge for themselves without influence whether or not they want to learn the language. Say what you want about freedom of speech, it only serves to be damaging if not restricted slightly.
As many have said, it needs to be revived at a grass-roots level. It's not realistic to expect any of the living generations to have a different stance. If the measures are taken now, I'd say it's damn well possible to bring Irish back from the grave.

Nodster · 11-05-2012 12:57am

In my eye's a few generations have judged it - let it go, no point spending a red cent we can't afford floging a dead horse

paddyandy · 11-05-2012 1:28am

Nodster wrote: »

In my eye's a few generations have judged it - let it go, no point spending a red cent we can't afford floging a dead horse

You could be right but the floggers have bills to pay and need to continue flogging .

conor.hogan.2 · 11-05-2012 1:41am

MysticalRain wrote: »

Perfectly true. It also contradicts the original point you tried to make.

It's a slim majority going by the latest opinion polls. So it wouldn't take much for the majority to swing the other way.

No it doesn't. I did not state that a minority of people use it because that is obvious because if you don't know Irish why would you be using resources in Irish?

I would bet a sizable amount of money on it being defeated if there was a referendum if I was a betting man.

conor.hogan.2 · 11-05-2012 1:45am

MysticalRain wrote: »

The Irish language has it's roots in the language of a previous invader (the Celts) and is a vastly different language to what was spoken in the 1600s.

So? How far do you want to go? It is the language of Ireland for all of its recorded history.

English from 1600 is also vastly different. (neither of these have anything to do with the topic and hand anyway)

Ambient Occlusion wrote: »

Banning Irish as a subject is idiocy in it's purest form, suggesting that solution would only to dissatisfy a considerable number of people. Making it an optional subject might be wise, but banning it, no. There are people that do not want to learn and conversely there are many that do.

It is only recommended by people who want it to actually die (as in not "die" in the sense that people believe will happen if we remove compulsion but I mean actually die)

I wish we could just have a referendum, that would silence a lot of people.

How to revive the Irish language.

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