Keep abortion out of Ireland

Wh1stler · 03-04-2012 8:26pm

Benny_Cake wrote: »

Big supposition on your part.

What was?

Benny_Cake wrote: »

I'd suggest your arguments might hold more water if you stopped stereotyping Christians as foaming at the mouth Bill O'Reilly types.

Which would be valid if I did but I don't.

marienbad · 03-04-2012 8:26pm

prinz wrote: »

Yes that would be disingenuous. "Protecting the psychological welfare of the mother" covers everything from 'I was drunk and got knocked up' to 'I'm afraid my boyfriend/husband/relevant other party would leave me' to 'I'm single' to 'I can't afford a baby'.

I'm against illegal dumping. Judging from the bags of rubbish that are regularly dumped at the top of the road I live on I can assume there are quite a few people with a different moral viewpoint on dumping illegally. Is the only consistent position then the legalise dumping wherever you want? I mean that would allow the maximum number of people the maximum freedom of their own personal choice on whether to dump at the side of a road, or use proper channels right? Does that actually make the slightest bit of sense to you in a society where we all have to pool some degree of personal sovereignty to live together?

Do people have different moral standpoints on theft? Assault? Vandalism? Drug abuse? Paying tax? Car insurance? Should we as a society say 'ah sure here, there are too many different standpoints... they can all do whatever they like, that gives everyone maximum freedom'?

Yes people do have different moral standpoints all over the place , but I agree with you about pooling personal sovereigity and the question is where and when we do that .

The methodology should be to limit personal freedom and choice as little as possible.

It is not so long ago where that concensus in Ireland excluded contraception as we effectively took the catholic church position as law.
Would you wish to return to that ?

The other extreme is late term abortion , I don't see anyone advocating that .

The morning after pill - would you allow that ?

prinz · 03-04-2012 8:33pm

Wh1stler wrote: »

You really do need to consult a dictionary before using words.

Cool story bro!

marienbad wrote: »

It is not so long ago where that concensus in Ireland excluded contraception as we effectively took the catholic church position as law.
Would you wish to return to that?

Again with contraception :rolleyes: as it happens no I wouldn't.

marienbad wrote: »

The other extreme is late term abortion , I don't see anyone advocating that.

Really? Perhaps you should read the thread, at least one poster on this thread has advocated abortion at any stage.

Benny_Cake · 03-04-2012 8:39pm

Wh1stler wrote: »

Benny_Cake wrote: »

Big supposition on your part.

What was?

Benny_Cake wrote: »

I'd suggest your arguments might hold more water if you stopped stereotyping Christians as foaming at the mouth Bill O'Reilly types.

Which would be valid if I did but I don't.

You posted:

Christians are quite happy to ignore the bombs being dropped on Iraq and Afghanistan; to support the right to have guns (which are designed for the soul purpose of killing; to accept millions of deaths each year through alcohol and tobacco; why is that?

I would hold that many, if not a majority of Christians around the world are against the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, and aren't gun nuts. Maybe you didn't intend to generalise but it read that way.

qrrgprgua · 03-04-2012 9:16pm

Wh1stler wrote: »

1, A woman chooses to have an abortion because she feels unable to cope with either motherhood or the state of being pregnant.

2, A woman gives birth to a child that will suffer for two days before dying in order to perform certain rites dictated by, and satisfying the moral requirements for, her religion.

Which of the two women is more selfish; the one who prevents the suffering of a child or the one who causes the suffering of a child?

Bear in mind that to knowingly cause suffering is an act of cruelty.

And just in case you want to disagree with this, here is the definition of cruelty:

cruelty [ˈkruːəltɪ]
n pl -ties 1. deliberate infliction of pain or suffering
2. the quality or characteristic of being cruel
3. a cruel action
4. (Law) Law conduct that causes danger to life or limb or a threat to bodily or mental health, on proof of which a decree of divorce may be granted.

Its called motherhood.. Most women would never ever kill their child not matter how handicapped they are.

I think you will find medicine has advanced in many directions dealing with pain and disability... Sadly some medics think wasting money on the disabled is a waste of time.

marienbad · 03-04-2012 9:21pm

prinz wrote: »

Cool story bro!

Again with contraception :rolleyes: as it happens no I wouldn't.

Really? Perhaps you should read the thread, at least one poster on this thread has advocated abortion at any stage.

One poster ? Really ? Give us a break , either discuss in good faith or lets leave it.

What about the morning after pill- would you allow that ?

prinz · 03-04-2012 9:23pm

marienbad wrote: »

One poster ? Really ? Give us a break , either discuss in good faith or lets leave it.

You said you didn't see anyone advocating late term abortions. I said there was a poster on this very thread who does advocate late term abortions. Physician heal theyself.

The argument about when personhood arises is irrelevant, if a woman wants a late term abortion then that should be her right and nobody else's business.

Post #544 in case you are wondering. Now perhaps you'd like to discuss things in good faith seeing as how you made the erroneous claim.

doctoremma · 03-04-2012 9:50pm

prinz wrote: »

I would not choose to live in a country where we slap each other on the back and cheer on our athletes in the Special Olympics, then turn around and tell pregnant women that they should abort DS babies.

Nobody tells pregnant women to abort Down syndrome babies, that's a false statement - either you have no knowledge of the ethics of genetic counselling or you have presented a rather large strawman. Women are given the option of having the test - not all accept - and talked through the results, with ALL the outcomes and possibilties. At no point will any genentic counseller recommend an abortion and if they do, they should lose their job. Down syndrome can carry dreadful risks and dangers for the baby, it's not all about the 'high-functioning Down's, as seen on TV' (sorry to sound flippant). The burden of care can be enormous and each person will feel differently about how well they can cope with that burden. Also, there will be a huge confirmation bias in correlating Down syndrome tests with the number of resultant abortions - the women asking for the tests are, almost by definition, those more likely to consider all options after the result.

In fact, the number of babies being born with Down syndrome has increased in the UK, despite positive prenatal testing. This presumably reflects how the parents see improved care options, improved education options and so forth.

prinz wrote: »

I don't want to live in a society where any type of disability carries the death sentence.

I work in Genetic Medicine and I can assure you that there are some disabilities that no child deserves to be born with (or even allowed to suffer with in the womb, before a pre- or post- birth death). I have spent much time crying during work hours at the horror of biology. Not all disabilities are necessarily problematic but some are. Anyone who thinks another person's child should suffer pain in the name of their own moral code is going to get short shrift from me.

How do you feel about embryo screening after an IVF process?

prinz wrote: »

I don't want to live in a society where we could facilitate the aborting of females because they weren't male. I don't want to live in a society, where I walk past the barbershop, the bakers, the post office, and the place where we sanitise a form of ethnic cleansing prior to birth. I don't want to live in a place that allows citizens of the country grow up knowing they are on a list somewhere that says 'Suitable for abortion' etc.

I'm sorry but this is simply hyperbole.

We don't allow gender selection and even refuse to reveal gender after a scan where it is felt it might be a problem. I see no reason why that should change.

'Ethnic cleansing' what?!? I can't see your point at all. Can you explain what you mean by this?

And lists? What lists?!?

prinz wrote: »

You don't think it's horrific that women in already traumatic circumstances are being pushed into having abortions?

To what circumstances are you referring?

prinz wrote: »

You don't think it's horrific that dozens of children in the UK are delivered alive following botched abortions and then left to die?

Well then, we talk abut the limit, no?

marienbad · 03-04-2012 10:18pm

prinz wrote: »

You said you didn't see anyone advocating late term abortions. I said there was a poster on this very thread who does advocate late term abortions. Physician heal theyself.

Post #544 in case you are wondering. Now perhaps you'd like to discuss things in good faith seeing as how you made the erroneous claim.

I think you are aware of my point , that they is no significant evidence for demand for late term abortion from any quarter in this country and therefore it is just a red herrring.

Now can you answer my question on the morning after pill ?

prinz · 03-04-2012 10:25pm

doctoremma wrote: »

Nobody tells pregnant women to abort Down syndrome babies, that's a false statement -.

I have spoken to a woman who was a recipient of this advice.

Yesterday the BBC News website ran a selection of comments on this issue by members of the public. One in particular, by Heather of Livingston, Scotland, is worth reproducing in full here: "I was told that my daughter had Down's when I was about 12 weeks pregnant and every doctor, gynaecologist I saw tried to convince me a termination was the best option. I was still offered this at 26 weeks! One reason given to me by a cold-hearted consultant was that 'these babies put a strain on the NHS'. My daughter was stillborn and when pregnant again, I refused all tests apart from a scan. It's not society who are looking for the 'perfect baby', it's the medical profession."

http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/dominic-lawson/dominic-lawson-shame-on-the-doctors-prejudiced-against-down-syndrome-1033813.html

Are you saying this lady is lying?

She did not expect, she says, to be told by the consultant and a nurse that she should have a termination because her child could otherwise be a ‘burden’ on society. In fact Marie and her husband spent thousands of pounds on legal fees – it wasn’t about the money but Marie wanted the medical staff to examine their procedures. She felt she’d been rushed into having a termination and didn’t want the same thing to happen to another mum.

http://sellyourstoryuk.com/2011/10/27/abortion-downs-syndrome/

This woman lying?

A baby born alive after a botched abortion at 21 weeks is among the worst cases reported in the UK. The little girl, who had Down's Syndrome, lived for three hours after being delivered. Her parents claim they were "coerced" into a termination by staff at Macclesfield District General Hospital. They were later told that their baby had not "really" been alive, even though she was clearly breathing.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-512129/66-babies-year-left-die-NHS-abortions-wrong.html

doctoremma wrote: »

We don't allow gender selection and even refuse to reveal gender after a scan where it is felt it might be a problem. I see no reason why that should change.

So? All the person involved has to do is claim an abortion to safeguard her 'psychological wellbeing'. Didn't you concede that this reasoning can be used to procure and abortion for any number of actual reasons? Oops seems the boat has sailed on this one..

The clinician then asked the woman if she had considered her options, to which the woman replied: “Oh, absolutely … I can’t have it, this baby, because of the gender, so that’s just how it is …” replied the woman.
A termination was then booked for the following week.

http://www.alarabiya.net/articles/2012/02/23/196535.html

doctoremma wrote: »

'Ethnic cleansing' what?!? I can't see your point at all. Can you explain what you mean by this?

As above. People having abortions on grounds of disabilities, on grounds of gender etc.

doctoremma wrote: »

And lists? What lists?!?

Who decides what exactly constitutes a 'severe foetal abnormality'?

doctoremma wrote: »

Well then, we talk abut the limit, no?

They have limits in the UK don't they? Why are dozens of babies delivered and left to die? What good was the limit to them?

Botched abortions mean that scores of babies are being born alive and left to die, an official report has revealed. A total of 66 infants survived NHS termination attempts in one year alone, it emerged.
Rather than dying at birth as was intended, they were able to breathe unaided. About half were alive for an hour, while one survived ten hours.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-512129/66-babies-year-left-die-NHS-abortions-wrong.html

Anywho, going round in circles as these threads eventually tend to do. I'll stick to my position, you'll stick to yours.

doctoremma · 04-04-2012 10:32am

prinz wrote: »

I have spoken to a woman who was a recipient of this advice....Are you saying this lady is lying?....This woman lying?

No, I'm not. I read those stories - they are tragic and I have every sympathy for the women involved. I also realise that my previous statement - that nobody is told to have an abortion - represents the guidelines of the profession and the "ideal" position, not necessarily what happens at ground level. Having specifically put this question to one of the genetic counselors here, she was horrified that a patient could be told she should have an abortion, so thankfully it's not a universal problem.

However, the fault here lies with the care team, not with the legal provision of abortion. Nobody should ever be told to have an abortion, I think we both would agree on that? Counselors have strict decision-making frameworks to follow, which are intended to cover all possibilities and outcomes. For sure, one of those potential outcomes may be abortion but it should always be presented as an option, not an imperative.

This cases fall under the realm of medical negligence, not a black mark against the legal provision of abortion (in my opinion). The same is true for "botched" abortions.

prinz wrote: »

So? All the person involved has to do is claim an abortion to safeguard her 'psychological wellbeing'. Didn't you concede that this reasoning can be used to procure and abortion for any number of actual reasons?

Sex selection is illegal in the UK. Again, this is a problem with the medics who are willing to allow abortions to happen for these reasons. Maybe we need to stop trying to identify gender during ultrasounds. There are already moves from Europe to introduce this ruling (which, incidentally, would save a shed-load of cash) to prevent sex selection in member countries (or future member) where it could be a serious problem (Armenia, Azerbaijan etc).

prinz wrote: »

As above. People having abortions on grounds of disabilities, on grounds of gender etc.

Struggling to understand how this could be described as "ethnic cleansing".

prinz wrote: »

Who decides what exactly constitutes a 'severe foetal abnormality'?

The parents. The care team give the information on the nature of a congenital abnormality but only the parents can decided the "severity". Of course, what is considered "severe" for one family may be considered "not severe" for another, depending on circumstances.

prinz wrote: »

They have limits in the UK don't they? Why are dozens of babies delivered and left to die? What good was the limit to them?

Clearly, the 24-week limit might be considered too late by many (including me, as it happens). That's worth discussion.

prinz wrote: »

Anywho, going round in circles as these threads eventually tend to do. I'll stick to my position, you'll stick to yours.

Indeed, that may appear to be the case. I would never suggest that I don't have anything to learn from such debates. In my opinion, opinions are - and should be - continually updated (whether it's to be refined or to be consolidated, whatever).

prinz · 04-04-2012 11:37am

doctoremma wrote: »

No, I'm not. I read those stories - they are tragic and I have every sympathy for the women involved. I also realise that my previous statement - that nobody is told to have an abortion - represents the guidelines of the profession and the "ideal" position, not necessarily what happens at ground level. Having specifically put this question to one of the genetic counselors here, she was horrified that a patient could be told she should have an abortion, so thankfully it's not a universal problem..

Thankfully, but it's still a problem. You know how when discussing the death penalty one of the main arguments against it is that an innocent person could be executed.. and that's true. Do you think that argument should be swept aside because it's not a universal problem? When lives are at stake personally I don't think having an ideal on one hand, and the actuality of what happens on the ground on the other is reason enough to support it.

doctoremma wrote: »

However, the fault here lies with the care team, not with the legal provision of abortion. Nobody should ever be told to have an abortion, I think we both would agree on that? Counselors have strict decision-making frameworks to follow, which are intended to cover all possibilities and outcomes. For sure, one of those potential outcomes may be abortion but it should always be presented as an option, not an imperative...

I agree.. but that's how it seems to have gone isn't it? You start off with a firm set of ideals... and you end up with something very different that is abused from all sides.

doctoremma wrote: »

Sex selection is illegal in the UK. Again, this is a problem with the medics who are willing to allow abortions to happen for these reasons....

..and yet it happens, and by your own admission there is no real way to stop it as long as the patient could be described as wanting an abortion for mental well-being. Those are cases where sex selection was made very clear for the purposes of investigative journalism. How many abortions are procured on the grounds of sex selection every year, where that reasoning isn't actually revealed to the provider?

doctoremma wrote: »

Struggling to understand how this could be described as "ethnic cleansing".....

I meant it in the broader sense of a society effectively cleansing itself of undesirables.

doctoremma wrote: »

The parents. The care team give the information on the nature of a congenital abnormality but only the parents can decided the "severity". Of course, what is considered "severe" for one family may be considered "not severe" for another, depending on circumstances."

As the first point. You bring in a set of what ostensibly should have been noble ideals, and you end up with what's essentially a free for all.

doctoremma wrote: »

Indeed, that may appear to be the case. I would never suggest that I don't have anything to learn from such debates. In my opinion, opinions are - and should be - continually updated (whether it's to be refined or to be consolidated, whatever).

Both sides have a lot to learn. However since coming down on the side of saying no to abortion on demand I have learned a lot, but nothing that would make me change my position. Continually updated, yes, changed no.

doctoremma · 04-04-2012 12:43pm

prinz wrote: »

Both sides have a lot to learn. However since coming down on the side of saying no to abortion on demand I have learned a lot, but nothing that would make me change my position. Continually updated, yes, changed no.

Ok, this particular part of the discussion has probably run it's course. It was good to chat about it.

Can I ask, what will you do if abortion is legalised in Ireland? Would you feel like moving? Or stay and fight it?

prinz · 04-04-2012 1:01pm

doctoremma wrote: »

Can I ask, what will you do if abortion is legalised in Ireland? Would you feel like moving? Or stay and fight it?

I'd stay and have to accept it as a reality, but I still wouldn't be happy about it or recommend it or feel like it suddenly solves all our problems. As far as fighting it, I would in terms of voicing my objections and raising concerns and I would never view it as an equally acceptable solution to unwanted pregnancies compared to others. What I would not do is put up and shut up just because it's legal, dissenting opinions are already under enough pressure to be silenced as it is. If you mean 'fight it' in terms of attacking doctors or staff, then no.

doctoremma · 04-04-2012 1:05pm

prinz wrote: »

I'd stay and have to accept it as a reality, but I still wouldn't be happy about it or recommend it or feel like it suddenly solves all our problems. As far as fighting it, I would in terms of voicing my objections and raising concerns and I would never view it as an equally acceptable solution to unwanted pregnancies compared to others. What I would not do is put up and shut up just because it's legal, dissenting opinions are already under enough pressure to be silenced as it is.

It's an interesting dilemma. I've always maintained that I would remove myself from the UK if it were to (among other things) reinstitute the death penalty - a kind of protest, if you like. However, that wouldn't help the situation in the UK at all, so it's a tough one.

prinz wrote: »

If you mean 'fight it' in terms of attacking doctors or staff, then no.

No, I didn't mean that at all - Ireland is not the USA. Although, now you mention it, would you perceive that to be a possibility from any extreme group?

prinz · 04-04-2012 2:21pm

doctoremma wrote: »

It's an interesting dilemma. I've always maintained that I would remove myself from the UK if it were to (among other things) reinstitute the death penalty - a kind of protest, if you like. However, that wouldn't help the situation in the UK at all, so it's a tough one.

That's always interesting. You're against the death penalty for convicted criminals (usually for the most serious and heinous crimes which they had a choice to commit) but you don't see an ethical or moral issue with the death penalty for a foetus that has done absolutely nothing wrong.

There are things I would leave Ireland over. Introducing abortion by referendum of all the people isn't one of them, I'd rather stay and try to get people to make different decisions in their lives to prevent the need for abortions to begin with. Anywho will be leaving voluntarily soon enough for personal reasons, ye can have the vote while I'm gone :pac: maybe it'd pass by 0.000000001%

doctoremma wrote: »

No, I didn't mean that at all - Ireland is not the USA. Although, now you mention it, would you perceive that to be a possibility from any extreme group?

In Ireland not really, but you never know there's always one unfortunately.

gimmebroadband · 04-04-2012 2:53pm

To put it bluntly, abortion it the extermination of the powerless by the powerful!

doctoremma · 04-04-2012 3:18pm

prinz wrote: »

That's always interesting. You're against the death penalty for convicted criminals (usually for the most serious and heinous crimes which they had a choice to commit) but you don't see an ethical or moral issue with the death penalty for a foetus that has done absolutely nothing wrong.

Well, I have several arguments against the death penalty and several arguments for being pro-choice. But, if forced to compare the two, it's clear that I place a far higher value on sentient life than I do over non-sentient life (which is why I'd save the chimp rather than the human embryos).

prinz wrote: »

Anywho will be leaving voluntarily soon enough for personal reasons, ye can have the vote while I'm gone :pac: maybe it'd pass by 0.000000001%.

I'll settle for the continuing debate and discussion with my Irish family...that's probably my way in

newmug · 04-04-2012 3:21pm

Is there going to be a vote on it? If so, any word on when?

eviltwin · 04-04-2012 3:27pm

Does a form of abortion not take place any time someone uses the morning after pill? Or in IVF clinics with unwanted embryos? Why no outrage about that? It is only women you want to control?

gimmebroadband · 04-04-2012 3:36pm

eviltwin wrote: »

Does a form of abortion not take place any time someone uses the morning after pill? Or in IVF clinics with unwanted embryos? Why no outrage about that? It is only women you want to control?

I was unable to have children and I purposely didn't go for IVF because embryos that are not used are either frozen or end up as experiments. I adopted instead!

I did wonder when I was younger why God let others who have no regard for the babies they kill be able to get pregnant and not me. He had other plans though, He wanted me to me a mother to children whose parent didn't want to kill their child, and I couldn't be happier.

eviltwin · 04-04-2012 3:39pm

gimmebroadband wrote: »

I was unable to have children and I purposely didn't go for IVF because embryos that are not used are either frozen or end up as experiments. I adopted instead!

But it does happen doesn't it? Why is it not covered under existing abortion legislation?

Also curious those of you who are pro life what is your opinion on women who have had abortions? Do you judge them?

gimmebroadband · 04-04-2012 3:41pm

eviltwin wrote: »

But it does happen doesn't it? Why is it not covered under existing abortion legislation?

Also curious those of you who are pro life what is your opinion on women who have had abortions? Do you judge them?

I don't for one, my niece had an abortion last year. While I'm saddened that she did it, I don't hold it against her. Love the sinner, hate the sin!

doctoremma · 04-04-2012 3:43pm

gimmebroadband wrote: »

I was unable to have children and I purposely didn't go for IVF because embryos that are not used are either frozen or some of the cells from the embryo are used for experiments if I explicitly consent to this being allowed.

Fixed that for you. I wouldn't want anyone to think that scientists are growing babies in Petri dishes, then doing experiments on them.

gimmebroadband wrote: »

I adopted instead!

Congratulations.

doctoremma · 04-04-2012 3:45pm

gimmebroadband wrote: »

I don't for one, my niece had an abortion last year. While I'm saddened that she did it, I don't hold it against her. Love the sinner, hate the sin!

Did you tell her that, to put it bluntly, abortion is the extermination of the powerless by the powerful?

prinz · 04-04-2012 3:51pm

eviltwin wrote: »

It is only women you want to control?

Lol. Yes, that's it exactly.

hattoncracker · 04-04-2012 4:03pm

prinz wrote: »

eviltwin wrote: »

It is only women you want to control?

Lol. Yes, that's it exactly.

Is there a law to stop the father of an unplanned pregnancy from immigrating? No.

Is child support taken out of their wages with their tax and given directly to the mother? No.

I've never heard of a man serving time for being a no-show father... The child suffers, always it's the child that suffers.. Wheres daddy? Why doesn't he want to talk to me? Why doesn't he love me? How did you and daddy meet?

Daddy left after you were born, because he wasn't ready to be a daddy.
Daddy raped me.

You can laugh all you want but if men were the gender who got pregnant we would not be having this conversation.

gimmebroadband · 04-04-2012 4:10pm

doctoremma wrote: »

Did you tell her that, to put it bluntly, abortion is the extermination of the powerless by the powerful?

She said herself that what she did was evil, her words! She even went as far as to get pregnant again (probably to make up for what she did), and she lost it! Ironic or what!! She already has a 3 year old!

hattoncracker · 04-04-2012 4:12pm

gimmebroadband wrote: »

doctoremma wrote: »

Did you tell her that, to put it bluntly, abortion is the extermination of the powerless by the powerful?

She said herself that what she did was evil, her words! She even went as far as to get pregnant again (probably to make up for what she did), and she lost it! Ironic or what!!

So she got what she deserved, yeah?

gimmebroadband · 04-04-2012 4:15pm

hattoncracker wrote: »

So she got what she deserved, yeah?

I don't agree, you are putting words in my mouth? I think she has a sad life to be honest, she comes from a broken home!

hattoncracker · 04-04-2012 4:17pm

gimmebroadband wrote: »

hattoncracker wrote: »

So she got what she deserved, yeah?

I don't agree, you are putting words in my mouth? I think she has a sad life to be honest, she comes from a broken home!

That's not ironic, it's tragic, and all the more damaging because she may be thinking that she deserved it.

And if your definition of "broken home" is one where the parents separate, a lot of those children you want to save are going to be in just as bad, if not worse situations.

Delirium · 04-04-2012 4:20pm

gimmebroadband wrote: »

I don't agree, you are putting words in my mouth? I think she has a sad life to be honest, she comes from a broken home!

It was the phrasing of the post, gimme. I read it to mean what hatton thought, but just presumed that wasn't your intent.

eviltwin · 04-04-2012 4:22pm

Poor girl. If she is calling herself evil and trying to replace the baby she needs help and support and a lot of talking. I felt that way after my abortion. But I don't feel that way now. Life happens you know? You find yourself in a situation you don't expect and you make the best choice you can. Nothing evil about it. I came through the other side and feel very at peace about my choice. I have no regrets. Probably not what anyone here wants to hear but there you go.

doctoremma · 04-04-2012 4:23pm

hattoncracker wrote: »

if men were the gender who got pregnant we would not be having this conversation.

I can't disagree with this.

prinz · 04-04-2012 4:28pm

hattoncracker wrote: »

You can laugh all you want but if men were the gender who got pregnant we would not be having this conversation.

Can a man force a woman to have his unborn child aborted if the mother says no?

Can a man take legal action to prevent his unborn child from being aborted against his wishes?

Swings and roundabouts you see. You can't have it every which way. As for "it's always the child who suffers"... it certainly is with abortion anyway.

This isn't a male versus female issue and any attempt to portray it as such is childish and a sign of desperation. Your one step away from saying my vote/opinion shouldn't count because I'm male. Wouldn't be the first time I've heard that kind of ignorance either.

You want my backup on child support to be taken from gross wages? You've got it. 100% with you on that.

eviltwin · 04-04-2012 4:28pm

Why the lol Prinz? I think its a valid question. There seems to be no interest in stopping the destruction of life in the clincs. Why not? Is it not the same thing? Why is it so much more of an issue when the 'baby' is in the womb? Hard not to see it as a gender control issue.

gimmebroadband · 04-04-2012 4:37pm

hattoncracker wrote: »

That's not ironic, it's tragic, and all the more damaging because she may be thinking that she deserved it.

And if your definition of "broken home" is one where the parents separate, a lot of those children you want to save are going to be in just as bad, if not worse situations.

There was drugs and alcohol involved, as well as affairs!

eviltwin · 04-04-2012 4:41pm

I hope your niece is getting love and support and no condemnation.

hattoncracker · 04-04-2012 4:41pm

prinz wrote: »

hattoncracker wrote: »

You can laugh all you want but if men were the gender who got pregnant we would not be having this conversation.

Can a man force a woman to have his unborn child aborted if the mother says no?

Can a man take legal action to prevent his unborn child from being aborted against his wishes?

Swings and roundabouts you see. You can't have it every which way. As for "it's always the child who suffers"... it certainly is with abortion anyway.

This isn't a male versus female issue and any attempt to portray it as such is childish and a sign of desperation. Your one step away from saying my vote/opinion shouldn't count because I'm male. Wouldn't be the first time I've heard that kind of ignorance either.

It is always the child who suffers, when they are born to parents that see them as a mistake, and have noqualms in reminding them.

There is an element of gender control in it.. Im not saying you shouldn't get a say when it's your gf or wife, it ideally should be a mutual decision, but when it's someone else's body, the choice should be there. I argue for a woman's choice to be able to choose motherhood and pregnancy,

men have a lot more choice in fatherhood. They can disappear. I've seen it happen to women I know. it's a lot harder for a woman to leave her womb behind. When a man walks into a room you have no way of telling if he's an expectant father. A woman cannot deny being pregnant unless she locks herself away. Its blindingly obvious.

hattoncracker · 04-04-2012 4:48pm

gimmebroadband wrote: »

hattoncracker wrote: »

That's not ironic, it's tragic, and all the more damaging because she may be thinking that she deserved it.

And if your definition of "broken home" is one where the parents separate, a lot of those children you want to save are going to be in just as bad, if not worse situations.

There was drugs and alcohol involved, as well as affairs!

Exact same with my family... I know what it's like to grow up in that situation.. if it's still something that is affecting her life then she needs even more love and support.

If anyone ever knew about my abortion and decided it was because I came from a broken home I would actually fly at them though. I don't like it when people decide that a bad childhood is the reason I made my choices.

doctoremma · 04-04-2012 4:50pm

prinz wrote: »

Can a man force a woman to have his unborn child aborted if the mother says no?

Nobody can force anyone to put their body through something against their wishes (abortion).

prinz wrote: »

Can a man take legal action to prevent his unborn child from being aborted against his wishes?

Nobody can force anyone to put their body through something against their wishes (pregnancy).

prinz wrote: »

This isn't a male versus female issue and any attempt to portray it as such is childish and a sign of desperation. Your one step away from saying my vote/opinion shouldn't count because I'm male. Wouldn't be the first time I've heard that kind of ignorance either.

Unfortunately, as much as we strive for equality in human affairs (and so we should), the arena of pregnancy and childbirth is always one-sided. I don't believe there is any way that you could realistically say that a man has the slightest idea about what carrying a child might be like. This works both ways - I cannot imagine being a man in a lot of situations. I'm not suggesting men can't understand or sympathise - but they can't empathise (at least, as I understand the word).

The idea of being forced to carry a child against my wishes is horrific, truly truly horrific. Not just physically but, more importantly, emotionally (in case you think I'm merely slightly concerned about stretchmarks). The fact that any man suggests such a thing does nothing except indicate his lack of understanding of the situation.

This obviously presents some problems when the people legislating on abortion are largely, um, men.

prinz · 04-04-2012 5:13pm

hattoncracker wrote: »

There is an element of gender control in it.. Im not saying you shouldn't get a say when it's your gf or wife, it ideally should be a mutual decision, but when it's someone else's body, the choice should be there.

Ideally it should but in reality it isn't, is it? So how come I haven't been accusing the pro-choice side of seeking to control the destinies of men? Where does the gender control lie when a man doesn't want to be a father? A man can walk away but he's still a father at the end of the day. He might be able to hide it better but that doesn't mean the child doesn't exist.

hattoncracker wrote: »

A woman cannot deny being pregnant unless she locks herself away. Its blindingly obvious.

Jesus wept. You've gotten the short-straw alright. We'll wind back how many thousands of years of evolution?

doctoremma wrote: »

Nobody can force anyone to put their body through something against their wishes (abortion)..

Great so a man can be forced into becoming a father against his wishes, and for some reason we are still complaining about who is controlling who? If men can't empathise with women, can a women empathise with a man becoming a father?

doctoremma wrote: »

The idea of being forced to carry a child against my wishes is horrific, truly truly horrific. Not just physically but, more importantly, emotionally (in case you think I'm merely slightly concerned about stretchmarks). The fact that any man suggests such a thing does nothing except indicate his lack of understanding of the situation..

How about the father who desperately wants his child and it gets aborted against his wishes? How would you describe that? I mean when emotions are more important than physical issues then why isn't a father's emotion needs given equal weight?

doctoremma wrote: »

This obviously presents some problems when the people legislating on abortion are largely, um, men.

..and was it largely men who legalised abortion in the UK? ..and everywhere else? Do you have issues that they did legislate? Why does the fact that it's "largely, um, men" legislating on abortion only become an issue when it isn't legalised?

Either way the male versus female divide is a false one.

hattoncracker · 04-04-2012 5:25pm

Prinz, I'd like to know what you mean when you say I've gotten "the short straw".

And it is to a certain extent, a male vs female debate.

If a man doesn't want to be a father, use a condom.

If a man does want to be a dad and the woman he is with does not, he should be with another woman.

prinz · 04-04-2012 5:30pm

hattoncracker wrote: »

Prinz, I'd like to know what you mean when you say I've gotten "the short straw".

By being born female. Your complaint seems to centre around the fact that women have wombs and men don't.

hattoncracker wrote: »

And it is to a certain extent, a male vs female debate.
If a man doesn't want to be a father, use a condom.

Is there something preventing women from using contraception? Natural and otherwise? Isn't it ironic that when I suggested if women didn't want to be mothers they should take better precautions contraception wise but that gets dismissed. Of course this use a condom nonsense, while floating in irony also ignores, the questions I asked.

hattoncracker wrote: »

If a man does want to be a dad and the woman he is with does not, he should be with another woman.

..and a woman who doesn't want to procreate shouldn't have sex, or at least should be more careful about contraception. Simples. Ah yes, equality between the sexes is right.

eviltwin · 04-04-2012 5:34pm

What if she's raped? Not all pregnancies are as a result of failure of contaception.

hattoncracker · 04-04-2012 5:39pm

prinz wrote: »

hattoncracker wrote: »

Prinz, I'd like to know what you mean when you say I've gotten "the short straw".

By being born female. Your complaint seems to centre around the fact that women have wombs and men don't.

hattoncracker wrote: »

And it is to a certain extent, a male vs female debate.
If a man doesn't want to be a father, use a condom.

Is there something preventing women from using contraception? Natural and otherwise? Isn't it ironic that when I suggested if women didn't want to be mothers they should take better precautions contraception wise but that gets dismissed. Of course this use a condom nonsense, while floating in irony also ignores, the questions I asked.

hattoncracker wrote: »

If a man does want to be a dad and the woman he is with does not, he should be with another woman.

..and a woman who doesn't want to procreate shouldn't have sex, or at least should be more careful about contraception. Simples. Ah yes, equality between the sexes is right.

I see the irony of what I posted is totally lost on you. I was taking the exact same black and white approach to your questions as you take to mine. But did I turn around and blame the guy for getting me pregnant? No, because that's just dumb.

If I say a man should use a condom if he doesn't want kids, you say the woman should be the one to use contraception.

When I say if a woman doesn't want kids she should be with someone who doesn't want them either, you say she shouldn't have sex.

Where's the mans responsibility?

prinz · 04-04-2012 5:41pm

eviltwin wrote: »

What if she's raped? Not all pregnancies are as a result of failure of contaception.

That's an extremely difficult and harrowing case scenario but studies on women getting abortions shows that victims of rape/incest/abuse represent less than 1% or odd of abortions in reality. Do you think I haven't thought about that? How difficult the whole situation would be?

hattoncracker · 04-04-2012 5:44pm

prinz wrote: »

eviltwin wrote: »

What if she's raped? Not all pregnancies are as a result of failure of contaception.

That's an extremely difficult and harrowing case scenario but studies on women getting abortions shows that victims of rape/incest/abuse represent less than 1% or odd of abortions in reality. Do you think I haven't thought about that? How difficult the whole situation would be?

People who abort for eye colour are a minority too, they have been mentioned on this thread too.. Rape victims should be mentioned, however small a percentage that is.

prinz · 04-04-2012 5:47pm

hattoncracker wrote: »

If I say a man should use a condom if he doesn't want kids, you say the woman should be the one to use contraception.
When I say if a woman doesn't want kids she should be with someone who doesn't want them either, you say she shouldn't have sex.
Where's the mans responsibility?

Not quite. I think men and women should take equal responsibility in the pregnancy happening, but basically what you are saying is men should share equal responsibility in getting you pregnant, equal responsibility after birth. But during the 9 months of pregnancy shouldn't have a say whatsoever.... or that it would be great in an 'ideal' world. So you want your cake and you want to eat it... and then you accuse others of sexism.

prinz · 04-04-2012 5:49pm

hattoncracker wrote: »

People who abort for eye colour are a minority too, they have been mentioned on this thread too.. Rape victims should be mentioned, however small a percentage that is.

They were mentioned... and I responded.

Keep abortion out of Ireland

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