Why must Irish be compulsory??

Zirconia · 12-03-2012 6:32pm

As an Irish language hater myself, I believe the fact that is is compulsory is the biggest factor in making so many people dislike the language. I refuse to converse with anyone who speaks to me in Irish, and as my kids are about to do their leaving cert this year and next year and are finding this subject difficult, I've told them to ignore it and concentrate all their efforts in the real subjects.

GaryIrv93 · 12-03-2012 6:44pm

This thread utterly depresses me

This thread wasn't made to ''depress'' anyone. Why would it depress you anyway?

Everyone has the right to an opinion on Irish, either positive or negative, and I respect your opinion. But I stated very clear problems with Irish that we all know exist, no matter what your opinion is on Irish: How it's forced on young people and the way it's currently taught.

Ms.M · 03-04-2012 11:34am

I see. Any opinions you want to share on any other minority cultures so? No, sometimes you should not "respect" other peoples opinions. English and Maths are also "forced on young children." And people studying English all across Europe study Shakespeare at second level for God sake! The reason why a lot of Irish kids hate it is because their parents tell them they should (trust me, I've had debates with many students) and frankly because the standard is very high (it is a first language or language of educational instruction for many people). I'm talking as someone who was not fond of Irish in second-level due to my own laziness and someone who teaches Irish in second-level currently. I'll leave this thread to who it was made for. Enjoy folks! Any opinions about Travellers? Refugees? Get it off your chests, please, your opinions are just so valuable!

Stark · 03-04-2012 11:36am

Ms.M wrote:

I'll leave this thread to who it was made for. Enjoy folks! Any opinions about Travellers? Refugees?

Ah jesus. At least you left out Nazis so we can't invoke Godwin's law.

Namlub · 03-04-2012 1:10pm

Ms.M wrote: »

I see. Any opinions you want to share on any other minority cultures so? No, sometimes you should not "respect" other peoples opinions. English and Maths are also "forced on young children." And people studying English all across Europe study Shakespeare at second level for God sake! The reason why a lot of Irish kids hate it is because their parents tell them they should (trust me, I've had debates with many students) and frankly because the standard is very high (it is a first language or language of educational instruction for many people). I'm talking as someone who was not fond of Irish in second-level due to my own laziness and someone who teaches Irish in second-level currently. I'll leave this thread to who it was made for. Enjoy folks! Any opinions about Travellers? Refugees? Get it off your chests, please, your opinions are just so valuable!

There's no need to be hysterical, if a bunch of LC students can respect the fact that others have opinions they don't necessarily agree with, surely you should too?

I have no problem with the language itself, but it seems funny to me that the people who insist that it's going from strength to strength are the same people who seem terrified at the prospect of students being able to exercise their own free will when it comes to studying it.
Also, get rid of the sraith pictiurs. Seriously.

guitarzero · 03-04-2012 2:06pm

It has to be acknowledged that the education system has and is making a hash of it with regards to the Irish language. The fact that a mere fraction of the population can only string a cupla focail together is a dire indication that its utterly flawed. How can anyone advocate this?? I'm not a fan of our education system anyway but the fruits of Irish in schools are none.

This thing around identity is just an idea. Ireland has gone through so many cultural changes that one simply cannot say whole heartedly that there is an Irish identity. I've never looked at Irish people and felt an affinity, and I'm a gaelgeoir.

I'd like to hear what the Irish identity is.

eyescreamcone · 03-04-2012 2:22pm

The latest census results show that more people speak Polish at home than speak Irish.
In fact nearly as many speak French at home as Irish.
This speaks volumes for the uselessness of 14 years of learning Irish in this country.
Sorry no link!

Let everybody get a splash of Irish to Junior Cert level - (personally I didn't get any better afterwards anyway)
And then leave it optional for the Leaving Cert.

Maybe give bonus points in the LC to make it attractive to keep on ??
(carrot rather than stick approach??)

jumpguy · 03-04-2012 3:01pm

Improve how it's taught in primary school, make it the primary language of use in primary schools (much like the Gaelscoils).

Make it harder to get into primary school teaching. A B2 or even B1 in HL Irish should be the matriculation requirement, there are many a wannabe primary teacher that hated Irish, but scraped the C3 and got in - and god help the future students they have...

Remove Irish and English as a matriculation requirement for relevant courses in the NUI (such as mechanical engineering, for example, where you're never gonna need flowery English or Irish). Remove maths where it's not relevant at all (Ancient Greece Studies). At the moment, no subjects are compulsory at Leaving Cert level. The only problem is, English, Irish and maths are mandatory for the vast majority of courses, especially in the NUIs.

Dwellingdweller · 03-04-2012 3:14pm

jive wrote: »

It shouldn't be compulsory. It provides little to no benefit for the vast, vast majority of people who learn it. The way it is taught throughout education is highly flawed and this is evident in the fact that you learn it for around 15 years and nobody can even speak the language fluently unless they are taught it externally e.g. at home, or live in a ghaeltacht area.

While I appreciate the reasons for it being taught, I do not these reasons justify it being a compulsory subject. Irish has no use outside of Ireland and has no use inside of Ireland for 99% of people. The time spent learning Irish would be better spent learning international languages like Spanish. I feel that Irish should be offered as a subject, but should not be a compulsory one because it has practical use for but a few individuals.

TL;DR
It's not useless, but it will never be relevant enough for it to justify being compulsory.

I agree with you on this, but think about it. If the scenario was reversed, i.e if Irish was in the position English is in and vice versa in this country, it'd be very difficult to become fluent at English too. Another thing is the cultural aspect of it. The internet, TV, movies, books, games, music... 99% of it's in English. We're an Americanized country and that's why English comes easier to us than Irish. After all, if we're hearing English 99% of the time, then logic dictates that we'll probably speak it that amount of the time too. What I'm saying is that there's very few places where you can become "immersed" in the Irish language (unless you do it to yourself on purpose :rolleyes:), not like where you can go to say France and all you'll hear is French, French music, French TV etc. We can't even do that in our own country. Take from that what you will but it's not exactly something we should take pride in...

This all coming from a LC student living in the Gaeltacht who hates being forced to speak Irish, btw. The way it's taught nearly made me hate it permanently but it is quite a beautiful language, and I'm proud that I speak it

Dwellingdweller · 03-04-2012 3:16pm

Zirconia wrote: »

As an Irish language hater myself, I believe the fact that is is compulsory is the biggest factor in making so many people dislike the language. I refuse to converse with anyone who speaks to me in Irish, and as my kids are about to do their leaving cert this year and next year and are finding this subject difficult, I've told them to ignore it and concentrate all their efforts in the real subjects.

...wtf?
that's just ignorant.

MyKeyG · 03-04-2012 4:16pm

I've said this before and I'll say it again. Learning a language is beneficial for a number of reasons. It trains the mind to assimilate information from scratch and to develop it to a particular level of proficiency. That's a vital skill in the working world. I speak both Irish and French and have a basic knowledge of Italian. There is no language more challenging and therefore beneficial than Irish. the fact that it's our national language I think gives it a fair shout at claiming seniority.

As to it's direct practicality no the ability to speak Irish is not essential but neither is knowing about zygotes, ox-bow lakes, Hastings, H2O, comment tu t'appelle, Shakespeare or any other pointless nonsense you pick up in secondary school. Ask anyone who's been to college if anything they learned in secondary gave them any practical advantage and invariably they'll say no as most colleges will assume ignorance of the subject material in most courses.

GaryIrv93 · 03-04-2012 4:27pm

Ms.M wrote: »

I see. Any opinions you want to share on any other minority cultures so? No, sometimes you should not "respect" other peoples opinions. English and Maths are also "forced on young children." And people studying English all across Europe study Shakespeare at second level for God sake! The reason why a lot of Irish kids hate it is because their parents tell them they should (trust me, I've had debates with many students) and frankly because the standard is very high (it is a first language or language of educational instruction for many people). I'm talking as someone who was not fond of Irish in second-level due to my own laziness and someone who teaches Irish in second-level currently. I'll leave this thread to who it was made for. Enjoy folks! Any opinions about Travellers? Refugees? Get it off your chests, please, your opinions are just so valuable!

Other compulsory subjects such as Maths are hated purely out of difficulty, however at least they'll be more useful and relevant to everyone's later life. No matter what job you go into, Maths and English will always be involved at some stage. Irish won't, unless Irish is specifically relevant to the job.

When I say ''respect your opinion'' I respect your right to your own opinion, even if I didn't like it. And I also (unlike a lot of people) respect your right to state your own opinion and point of view.

bscm · 03-04-2012 4:30pm

MyKeyG wrote: »

Ask anyone who's been to college if anything they learned in secondary gave them any practical advantage and invariably they'll say no as most colleges will assume ignorance of the subject material in most courses.

I don't agree, I do believe that other subjects are more useful than Irish and give a more practical benefit after the exams. I'm studying Science at TCD (aiming to get a degree in Astrophysics), and without having studied Physics and HL Maths for the Leaving Cert, I would have dropped out of college a long time ago. Most lecturers assume little knowledge of the subject at an advanced level, but that the student has gained or will immediately be self-learning good deal of background information. Some of my course who studied OL Maths are struggling greatly, because within one week we immediately started subjects which had taken up to 3 months to grasp during the Leaving Cert. In the Science sector of college, a lot of things can't easily be picked up from a book and need proper teaching or a natural affinity for the subject. It's a lot easier to learn about the Battle of Hastings from a book or pick up a dictionary to translate a word, but it's near impossible to fully understand Quantum Mechanics without previous knowledge of basic material.

I also have yet to speak a word of Irish aside from craic. And I have no plans to use or speak Irish in the future.

Dwellingdweller · 03-04-2012 5:09pm

Stark wrote: »

Americans speak English as well. Should they be ashamed of themselves? Maybe they should make up a language that no-one else can speak so they can call themselves Americans.

Now that's just a strawman, plain and simple. The amount of different languages that were flying around when the first colonists arrived in America made it difficult to do business/get anything done, so eventually because of handiness (mostly) people just switched to using English and English alone. If every colonist who first went to America spoke "American", then aye, they would have some linguistic heritage like Irish to conserve. But they didn't, so what you're saying makes ZERO sense.

MyKeyG · 03-04-2012 5:15pm

bscm wrote: »

I don't agree, I do believe that other subjects are more useful than Irish and give a more practical benefit after the exams. I'm studying Science at TCD (aiming to get a degree in Astrophysics), and without having studied Physics and HL Maths for the Leaving Cert, I would have dropped out of college a long time ago. Most lecturers assume little knowledge of the subject at an advanced level, but that the student has gained or will immediately be self-learning good deal of background information. Some of my course who studied OL Maths are struggling greatly, because within one week we immediately started subjects which had taken up to 3 months to grasp during the Leaving Cert. In the Science sector of college, a lot of things can't easily be picked up from a book and need proper teaching or a natural affinity for the subject. It's a lot easier to learn about the Battle of Hastings from a book or pick up a dictionary to translate a word, but it's near impossible to fully understand Quantum Mechanics without previous knowledge of basic material.

I also have yet to speak a word of Irish aside from craic. And I have no plans to use or speak Irish in the future.

With all due respect in my opinion how a person manages in third level education is more reflective of their efforts/abilities than what they learned in school. There are lots of people who didn't do any number of specific subjects at second level yet pursue them at third level. I did the leaving cert during the IT revolution. No school that I knew of did any IT subjects yet many of my generation went on to various IT sciences. People go on to study psychology yet there are very few if any schools that offer a syllabus on psychology. The same with sociology, philosophy etc many of which are considered difficult sciences.

I did accounting for the leaving certificate and went on to pursue it as a career for a time. My accounting teacher may as well have been teaching us Zulu for all the benefit it did me in the real world. The leaving cert in my view is designed to give students a taste of the variety of subjects they can pursue after secondary school and give them basic fundamentals concerning the same. With very few exceptions I don't believe for a second anything you learn in middle level education is worth squat from a practical point of view.

Just my opinion.

Chuchoter · 03-04-2012 5:25pm

Bazinga_N wrote: »

I'm actually a bit ashamed to call some of you fellow Irishmen...

Many of us Irish people complain about the British and we say we hate them.. But Why? Many people say it's due to them taking our independence, or our land and our language - Irish. Many years ago all Irishmen spoke Irish and English was kept to English people. I actually find it quite funny that today English people speak English and Irish people speak English.

I went to a Gaelscoil.... When I was there all I did was complain about being made speak Irish.. Got to an English speaking Secondary School.. It made me realise how much I actually liked Irish... I had an identity, as did my fellow classmates.. I wasn't they guy who liked Music... Or the guy into Sports... I was the guy who was smart enough, to take pride in Irish.. And Call myself a True Irish Man..

And that's something people say.. ''If you don't like Guinness your not Irish'' or if you ''Don't play GAA'' your not Irish.. Well In My Opinion if ''you don't Speak Irish, your not Irish'', Just like Italians speak Italian, The French speak French or The English Speak English.. Why shouldn't we have a unique language?

Also, people say Irish isn't a modern language... It's like Latin or Ancient Greek.. I strongly disagree.. I speak Irish on a daily basis.. As do many of my friends.. and fellow classmates.. as does every student in my past primary school... as does many people across the nation.. How is this language dead? The day Irish will die.. is the day the world will end... Because I know that even if it did go optional... The Irish race wouldn't be so stupid as to let the language die... Because some people like myself, have pride in our country.. and it's language..

Tir gan teanga, tir gan anam

I have to say that is one of the most arrogant posts I've ever read on LC. Who the hell made you the deciding factor on who is Irish, completely ignoring the huge socioeconomic issues involved? You know who speaks Irish these days in reality? The odd few people in the gaeltacht and then a **** tonne of upper middle class people who want to appear 'cultured'.

I don't agree with Irish being mandatory but I do believe it should be taught as French, I think it would be far better if it wasn't allowed to be mangled by primary teachers with barely a C3 and then facing into 6 years of poetry and prose that are of such poor quality you'd never see them in an English textbook.

grantyrs10 · 03-04-2012 5:49pm

Zirconia wrote: »

As an Irish language hater myself, I believe the fact that is is compulsory is the biggest factor in making so many people dislike the language. I refuse to converse with anyone who speaks to me in Irish, and as my kids are about to do their leaving cert this year and next year and are finding this subject difficult, I've told them to ignore it and concentrate all their efforts in the real subjects.

I strongly disagree... the above comment virtually made me sick . this is the reason why Irish is in a decline. A person who has no sense of culture or pride in one's native language. I t disgusts me that one would refuse to converse in irish to someone who may wish to do so !

grantyrs10 · 03-04-2012 5:51pm

Chuchoter wrote: »

I have to say that is one of the most arrogant posts I've ever read on LC. Who the hell made you the deciding factor on who is Irish, completely ignoring the huge socioeconomic issues involved? You know who speaks Irish these days in reality? The odd few people in the gaeltacht and then a **** tonne of upper middle class people who want to appear 'cultured'.

I don't agree with Irish being mandatory but I do believe it should be taught as French, I think it would be far better if it wasn't allowed to be mangled by primary teachers with barely a C3 and then facing into 6 years of poetry and prose that are of such poor quality you'd never see them in an English textbook.

I do not agree in any way that the above post is arrogant. How can it be arrogant when a person is merely debating his view along with anecdotes to his own life.

GaryIrv93 · 03-04-2012 5:55pm

There's so many more practical (and very useful) subjects that could also be introduced in schools. Why not introduce something such as ''Driving Skills'' - introducing road rules, safety, how to use gearshifts and clutches, etc - everything a driver would need to know? Hell, maybe introduce car simulators to schools, so young people would be enouraged to drive at an earlier age. Considering there's a much greater emphasis on SexEd I don't see the harm in introducing Driving Skills too. It's a skill that pretty much all young people we need in their future lives. Another one I'd like to see would be a subject teaching students all about engines - how they work, how to fix certain common problems with car engines: repairing punctured tyres, how to sort out a breakdown, how to replace break-pads...there's a long list. Subjects like these should be introduced to teach useful skills - if my car breaks down on a deserted road, which would help me more: Knowing exactly what's wrong and how to fix it - which could end up saving my life, or not knowing how to fix it, but knowing how to string a few cupla focail together? I'd make Irish optional to respect a basic human right - to speak whatever language you wish, but I wouldn't dare try to take the Irsh language away from anyone who would want to speak it, even though it wouldn't be useful to me myself.

Chuchoter · 03-04-2012 6:13pm

grantyrs10 wrote: »

I do not agree in any way that the above post is arrogant. How can it be arrogant when a person is merely debating his view along with anecdotes to his own life.

He's after declaring the majority of the country not Irish from the very privileged position of having parents clearly middle class and interested in education enough to send him there. He's discounting all the families from working class backgrounds who might not have the same access to things like gaeltachts, families interested in Irish or gaelscoils. Its great he speaks Irish, does he get to call everyone else not Irish? No.

laoch na mona · 03-04-2012 6:15pm

its a vital part of our culture and the state is trying to preserve it

Namlub · 03-04-2012 6:15pm

grantyrs10 wrote: »

I do not agree in any way that the above post is arrogant. How can it be arrogant when a person is merely debating his view along with anecdotes to his own life.

''If you don't speak Irish, your [sic] not Irish.'' Yeah, I'd call that pretty arrogant. And ignorant, small-minded, etc.

Peanut · 03-04-2012 6:35pm

grantyrs10 wrote: »

I do not agree in any way that the above post is arrogant. How can it be arrogant when a person is merely debating his view along with anecdotes to his own life.

Are you serious?

I was the guy who was smart enough .. [to] .. Call myself a True Irish Man..

DepoProvera · 04-04-2012 9:09am

Irish is simply useless. It has literally no practical or intellectual applications. It's a poorly structured, horrible sounding language.

Maths and English are extremely important and should be compulsory. Maths is used in a vast amount of college courses and teaches logic and pattern recognition etc. English is obviously vital(however I do think there should be a greater focus on teaching syntax and grammar)

Irish, however, has literally no use. There are better ways to promote Irish heritage without forcing students to learn a tired, old language. Proponents of the language are just making futile attempts to hark back to the early 20th century and still have the whole 'Brits out' attitude. Accept it - the English language has done wonders for Ireland and she would be nowhere without.

The sheer amount of money spent on teaching Irish, translating official documents, road signs etc is bewildering.

RadioClash · 04-04-2012 9:41am

guitarzero wrote: »

This thing around identity is just an idea. Ireland has gone through so many cultural changes that one simply cannot say whole heartedly that there is an Irish identity. I've never looked at Irish people and felt an affinity, and I'm a gaelgeoir.

You sure about that?

I've said this before, and this is merely anecdotal but: The (Irish) people who I know that tend to be the best at acquiring other languages (from French to Japanese) are.....*drumroll*.... either those who went to Irish medium schools, or those who put the legwork into speaking good Irish at the LC.

Every subject and school in general is useless if you have a crappy attitude to it. It's self fulfilling. It irks me to hear parents saying not to bother at any subject, what happened to doing your best?

RadioClash · 04-04-2012 9:47am

DepoProvera wrote: »

Irish is simply useless. It has literally no practical or intellectual applications. It's a poorly structured, horrible sounding language.

It has no intellectual applications for you. People who do speak it may argue otherwise.

DepoProvera wrote: »

Maths and English are extremely important and should be compulsory. Maths is used in a vast amount of college courses and teaches logic and pattern recognition etc. English is obviously vital(however I do think there should be a greater focus on teaching syntax and grammar)

Agree on the grammar. More focus on that in early secondary is needed.

DepoProvera wrote: »

Irish, however, has literally no use. There are better ways to promote Irish heritage without forcing students to learn a tired, old language. Proponents of the language are just making futile attempts to hark back to the early 20th century and still have the whole 'Brits out' attitude. Accept it - the English language has done wonders for Ireland and she would be nowhere without.

Speaking both good English and Irish are incompatible? Ever been to Denmark/Sweden? Having a native language never stopped the average citizen there from learning close to native standard English.

Peanut · 04-04-2012 10:22am

RadioClash wrote: »

It irks me to hear parents saying not to bother at any subject, what happened to doing your best?

Very odd way of looking at things tbh. Should we all be learning Latin? How about Honours Maths? Should every second level student be compelled to study it?

There has to be some criteria stopping the DoE from setting wasteful curriculums, and this is even more important for compulsory subjects. There is also a distinct opportunity cost to students (and the taxpayer in general) in getting this wrong.

RadioClash · 04-04-2012 11:28am

Peanut wrote: »

Very odd way of looking at things tbh. Should we all be learning Latin? How about Honours Maths? Should every second level student be compelled to study it?

There has to be some criteria stopping the DoE from setting wasteful curriculums, and this is even more important for compulsory subjects. There is also a distinct opportunity cost to students (and the taxpayer in general) in getting this wrong.

No such thing as wasteful knowledge. Even Latin.

Compulsion and being compelled to study certain things is inherent to almost every education system in the world. Every student enjoys certain subjects more than others, but you shouldn't tell kids down tools if they(or you) think it's useless, in school or life in general. That's an attitude that's pervasive in certain sectors of Irish society and it leads to social problems.

I'm not arguing that Irish is more economically beneficial than German or Mandarin, it's blatantly not. But I'd loathe to see an education system in this country dictated by IBEC or others ran on a cold economic benefit basis.

*off to dance with comely maidens at the crossroads with the ghost of Eamon DeValera*

MyKeyG · 04-04-2012 2:43pm

DepoProvera wrote: »

Irish is simply useless. It has literally no practical or intellectual applications. It's a poorly structured, horrible sounding language.

In your opinion!

Irish, however, has literally no use. There are better ways to promote Irish heritage without forcing students to learn a tired, old language. Proponents of the language are just making futile attempts to hark back to the early 20th century and still have the whole 'Brits out' attitude.

What an ignorant attitude. What the hell has having a love of the Irish language got to do with Nationalism? Now I think you're just fabricating reasons to argue your point and you're starting to look very silly in doing so!

Accept it - the English language has done wonders for Ireland and she would be nowhere without.

What wonders are these you speak of? I'm genuinely interested to know though I'm fairly sure you've no idea yourself

The sheer amount of money spent on teaching Irish, translating official documents, road signs etc is bewildering.

Bewildering? Really? At a time when we're paying bond holders? At a time when corrupt bankers and politicians are drawing massive bonus payments and pensions. You need to grow up a bit friend and sort your priorities!

GaryIrv93 · 04-04-2012 4:58pm

RadioClash wrote: »

No such thing as wasteful knowledge. Even Latin.

Compulsion and being compelled to study certain things is inherent to almost every education system in the world. Every student enjoys certain subjects more than others, but you shouldn't tell kids down tools if they(or you) think it's useless, in school or life in general. That's an attitude that's pervasive in certain sectors of Irish society and it leads to social problems.

I'm not arguing that Irish is more economically beneficial than German or Mandarin, it's blatantly not. But I'd loathe to see an education system in this country dictated by IBEC or others ran on a cold economic benefit basis.

*off to dance with comely maidens at the crossroads with the ghost of Eamon DeValera*

A lot of knowledge is wasteful in the sense that it's irrelevant. Much of what school teaches is forgotten, and much of what's remembered is irrelevant - you may as well have not spent your school years ''learning'' it. School cirriculums need to be personality based and not so rote.

Why must Irish be compulsory??

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